90 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlasskiwi]

Sutekh wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

I hope that DA3 will be more realistic in their armors. Like stated above it looks wierd when a rogue like Isabella frontally attacks a templar in full armor and kills him without a scratch so to speak. I do have imagination but logic overrides this.

I really don't care about realism in fantasy; sounds a bit to me like an oxymoron. Even low fantasy settings have their non-realistic parts (e.g. Game of Thrones). As long as the design fits the internal logic of the world I'm playing in or watching / reading about, that's fine. The rest is really a matter of whether or not I find it good looking.

Besides, if you take the realistic route, armors should come with realistic downsides too, such as no running in massive armor, once you're down, you don't get up, and don't even think of crossing that river. Gravity's a b*tch.

As for the TW2 shots in the OP, they are indeed gorgeous - and have a "historical accuracy" to them that I very much like because it generally fits TW2. But they are TW2 shots, with a TW2 look. I'd rather have DA3 looking like its own game and find its own aesthetics.

((Possibly without huge swords and ugly pointy neck-guards))

Agreed and well put Sutekh. 

Mostly I feel like they were on the right track with DA2 and I love the feel of the new armor concept. The one thing I really, really want is scabbards for swords. Please, no more floating swords.

[cindercatz]

Agreed about the scabbards, which is another thing I like about the Seeker sword in the DA3 concept art. I've always wanted them to actually draw their swords etc. from the scabbard, and for those scabbards and sheathes and stocks to be incorporated into the armor design.

Another thing that would be nice is if the broadswords, claymores, and flamberges had different animations associated with them, as they really are designed for different handling. And I like how, in that Scottish sword link, for instance, the real things tend to have angled or curved handguards and ball pommels, for ease of two handed handling. For instance, you have more room for angled movements, and the ball pommel allows for the second hand to counterweight the sword and reposition it more effectively. (Edit: It's also meant to provide a more natural leverage point for a claymore's strike, which is actually a lever action, with the upper grip powering down or across the target, while the lower hand pulls back on the ball pommel and lower hilt, to increase the blade's speed and force at impact, which is also the basic kendo technique, using the lower part of a longer hilt, which can be curved as well.) It would be rather awesome to see realistic technique to go with the more realistic design, if we get it.

I do agree that DA2 two hander looks like something out of a latter day Final Fantasy, not great. I tended to stick it with Fenris, heh, for the stats. Generally, unless your animation supports the characters using holes and slits in the blades to disarm opponents, etc., things a design like that would be intended to do, then they shouldn't be in the game. They'd tend to get stuck where they shouldn't. Let form follow function, then elaborate from there.



Also, I wanted to give some love to DA2's improvements. That would be chainmail. Most every light armor, whether leather, overclothes, or robes in DA2, including Merrill's, Isabella's, etc. is placed over visible chainmail. I loved that little touch, and hope to see that return for DA3.

Modifié par cindercatz, 21 avril 2012 - 04:11 .

[eroeru]

Have you guys never read about weapons that have their own soul, magical abilities etc, in fantasy or folk tales? I think that's what Bioware's going for with these designs. Armor should look realistic, but weapons can have their (realistically) unpractical elements - and can still be super awesome in the given fantasy universe.

Say the blade wasn't forged by a smith using 30 kg of metal, but it was conceived in the fade or something. That not only helps but is also super awesome for some.

[cindercatz]

eroeru wrote...

Have you guys never read about weapons that have their own soul, magical abilities etc, in fantasy or folk tales?  

I tend to like that, sure, also the idea that every weapon carries the soul of its forger. Such a weapon should have some bit of embellishment of some kind, should visually stand out, but that doesn't mean the design should be impractical.

[eroeru]

Yeah, DA ][ felt stupid mostly, but I blame the cartoonish aesthetic more than anything for that. These new concepts seem to be grounded more in realism though.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

eroeru wrote...

Have you guys never read about weapons that have their own soul, magical abilities etc, in fantasy or folk tales?

YOU MEAN LIKE ANDURIL?



MYSTIC-LOOKING RUNES, PLENTY OF BLING, BUT IT STILL LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU COULD KILL SOME ORCS WITH.

eroeru wrote... 
I think that's what Bioware's going for with these designs. Armor should look realistic, but weapons can have their (realistically) unpractical elements - and can still be super awesome in the given fantasy universe.

I DON'T THINK THAT A PETER JACKSON LEVEL OF SUBTLETY IS ASKING FOR TOO MUCH, OR EVEN MUCH AT ALL.

[Das Tentakel]

eroeru wrote...

Have you guys never read about weapons that have their own soul, magical abilities etc, in fantasy or folk tales? I think that's what Bioware's going for with these designs. Armor should look realistic, but weapons can have their (realistically) unpractical elements - and can still be super awesome in the given fantasy universe.

Say the blade wasn't forged by a smith using 30 kg of metal, but it was conceived in the fade or something. That not only helps but is also super awesome for some.

Meaning? Weapons like that are reported since Bronze Age times, but when we have depictions, or even the real thing (or replicas), they look pretty normal.

Here's Charlemagne's nephew Roelant (Roland) and his sword Durendal. Looks rather ordinary, even though it's a magical sword and all kinds of things are said about it (some say it contained relics, others that it was originally Hector of Troy's etc.).
I am not seeing multiple blades, huge proportions or christmas lights. 



Here's another one:


Nope. Roelant/Roland is clearly a badass mofo and his sword is not to be trifled with, but light effects, excessive size and multiple blades are noticeably absent. And I can't remember the last time I saw a multi-bladed, luminescent example of Excalibur either.

Joyeuse, supposedly Charlemagne's sword and another special blade, doesn't look that multi-bladed and/or luminescent either. Nice pommel, grip and cross, though (apparently added at different periods).



Where swords like this come from, is something more recent, a mix of cartoon/comic/anime influences, D&D art and special effects wizards who produced swords like the one from 'The Sword and the Sorceror' (1982)



Man, I loved that movie in my misspent youth. And it had Kathleen Beller:wub:.

The eponymous sword was kickass - in a teenager-with-pimples kind of wayB)





www.youtube.com/watch

I mean, target-seeking detachable swordblades, what's not to like:wizard:

It is now a proud part of my movie collection, and I still enjoy it now and then. In the company of friends, and taking the ****** out of it. And that's also the place where I mentally place that Grey Warden sword, and the...excesses of DA2. 

Here's to better times:innocent:

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 21 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[Das Tentakel]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Have you guys never read about weapons that have their own soul, magical abilities etc, in fantasy or folk tales?

YOU MEAN LIKE ANDURIL?



MYSTIC-LOOKING RUNES, PLENTY OF BLING, BUT IT STILL LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU COULD KILL SOME ORCS WITH.

eroeru wrote... 
I think that's what Bioware's going for with these designs. Armor should look realistic, but weapons can have their (realistically) unpractical elements - and can still be super awesome in the given fantasy universe.

I DON'T THINK THAT A PETER JACKSON LEVEL OF SUBTLETY IS ASKING FOR TOO MUCH, OR EVEN MUCH AT ALL.

Nice example, although Jackson's movies deliberately and very effectively oriented themselves to existing historically-inspired LotR art and certain relevant historical cultures and periods.
I sometimes half-jokingly refer to LotR as the 'historically most accurate films ever made'

But I wouldn't mind a magical blade inspired by weapons from the latter days of plate armour either, like this one:



I usually drool over Patrick Barta's Roman and Migration era swords, while counting my pennies and considering selling a spare kidney or something, but man, this sword also looks divine:wub:

[Sejborg]

But I wouldn't mind a magical blade inspired by weapons from the latter days of plate armour either, like this one:



I usually drool over Patrick Barta's Roman and Migration era swords, while counting my pennies and considering selling a spare kidney or something, but man, this sword also looks divine:wub:

I like that sword. Looks like something for a king or an extremely rich nobleman. 

[Zkyire]

Sejborg wrote...

But I wouldn't mind a magical blade inspired by weapons from the latter days of plate armour either, like this one:

<snip>

I usually drool over Patrick Barta's Roman and Migration era swords, while counting my pennies and considering selling a spare kidney or something, but man, this sword also looks divine:wub:

I like that sword. Looks like something for a king or an extremely rich nobleman. 

It's also the type of sword (Rapier) that Rogues in DA should be using, rather than Longswords.

[Pzykozis]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Nice example, although Jackson's movies deliberately and very effectively oriented themselves to existing historically-inspired LotR art and certain relevant historical cultures and periods.
I sometimes half-jokingly refer to LotR as the 'historically most accurate films ever made'

But I wouldn't mind a magical blade inspired by weapons from the latter days of plate armour either, like this one:


I usually drool over Patrick Barta's Roman and Migration era swords, while counting my pennies and considering selling a spare kidney or something, but man, this sword also looks divine:wub:

See the problem with things like that are they're actually quite expensive to model poly and texture wise not to mention that it looks extremely noisey even in that picture, there's a reason games with visually diverse weapon sets and armour sets tend to have more wild designs (i.e. larger, bolder details)  unless they're really pushing graphics in which they can layer detail like a sir.

Small details generally don't work that well in large quanitity, pixel limits, texture sizes and polycount budgets tend to keep this stuff down.

As for DA I'd like them to finally get their style down, and push that, I'd love to see fidelity like TW2 in the next DA but that doesn't mean it should look like TW2, it should look like DA in hopefully a final chosen style just with more oomph.

[Das Tentakel]

Pzykozis wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

Nice example, although Jackson's movies deliberately and very effectively oriented themselves to existing historically-inspired LotR art and certain relevant historical cultures and periods.
I sometimes half-jokingly refer to LotR as the 'historically most accurate films ever made'

But I wouldn't mind a magical blade inspired by weapons from the latter days of plate armour either, like this one:


I usually drool over Patrick Barta's Roman and Migration era swords, while counting my pennies and considering selling a spare kidney or something, but man, this sword also looks divine:wub:

See the problem with things like that are they're actually quite expensive to model poly and texture wise not to mention that it looks extremely noisey even in that picture, there's a reason games with visually diverse weapon sets and armour sets tend to have more wild designs (i.e. larger, bolder details)  unless they're really pushing graphics in which they can layer detail like a sir.

Small details generally don't work that well in large quanitity, pixel limits, texture sizes and polycount budgets tend to keep this stuff down.

As for DA I'd like them to finally get their style down, and push that, I'd love to see fidelity like TW2 in the next DA but that doesn't mean it should look like TW2, it should look like DA in hopefully a final chosen style just with more oomph.

That wasn't the point of my post though. Ultimately is about whether esthetically attractive looks and 'utility' / plausibility can be combined, which of course it can. But an engine's capabilities of course influence what can be depicted - WoW's designs (well, apart from the Christmas tree syndrome that got worse over time with its armours) make perfect sense given its engine and the aim of running the game on a wide range of machines.
I personally also doubt the DA engine - which, unfortunately, I suspect they'll be using for DA3 - is capable of even approximating such detail.
Maybe it was never intended to do that? After all, it is originally a PC engine, meant for tactical games that zoom in and out.

[Sejborg]

Pzykozis wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

Nice example, although Jackson's movies deliberately and very effectively oriented themselves to existing historically-inspired LotR art and certain relevant historical cultures and periods.
I sometimes half-jokingly refer to LotR as the 'historically most accurate films ever made'

But I wouldn't mind a magical blade inspired by weapons from the latter days of plate armour either, like this one:


I usually drool over Patrick Barta's Roman and Migration era swords, while counting my pennies and considering selling a spare kidney or something, but man, this sword also looks divine:wub:

See the problem with things like that are they're actually quite expensive to model poly and texture wise not to mention that it looks extremely noisey even in that picture, there's a reason games with visually diverse weapon sets and armour sets tend to have more wild designs (i.e. larger, bolder details)  unless they're really pushing graphics in which they can layer detail like a sir.

Small details generally don't work that well in large quanitity, pixel limits, texture sizes and polycount budgets tend to keep this stuff down.

As for DA I'd like them to finally get their style down, and push that, I'd love to see fidelity like TW2 in the next DA but that doesn't mean it should look like TW2, it should look like DA in hopefully a final chosen style just with more oomph.

Yeah. All that make sense. But why go and make something so extreme and unbelieavable as the Grey Wardens swords, when they can make simple diverse swords that still look deadly and practical. Like the swords you see here:
http://www.a2armory....avsworando.html 

Such swords won't need alot of textures and polycons I think. Also. Bioware can take the easy way, and use the same swords twice, and then just give them some orange color on the blades for rust and what not, and say they are the low level swords. Maybe take a two handed sword model, and make it look like its broken in half, for a legendary singlehanded sword. Suddenly you have reused a sword design and also given the new sword some history.

I found the DA2 design to be too extreme. One sword looks like a piece of wood with pearls, the next looks like a guytar and the last looks like a grandfather clock. The swords for this Grey Warden for DA3 gives me the feeling that this has not been corrected. 

[Sejborg]

 

Begemotka wrote...
Sejborg,your  grandfather clock-shaped sword analogy cracked me up:lol:,thanks for the laughs.
There is one good thing about a grandfather clock-shaped weapon : it is ACCURATE.

Oh, yeah? Well I guess... the darkspawns time is up. 



heh^_^

Modifié par Sejborg, 21 avril 2012 - 09:00 .

[eroeru]

Those are some cool posts here. But personally I wouldn't mind the weapon-stylistics that are in the concept art - DA is not the Witcher nor Mount and Blade - it tries to do something of its own. And while I prefer "real" weapons mostly, the Dragon Age universe feels as it really can deal with some unrealism successfully.

Really, I'd imagine such art-work as in Heroes of Might and Magic 3. Really mythological and fantasy, but with a solid, grim-looking style to it. Minus the fact that its more basic (which makes it cartoonish) in graphics.

Modifié par eroeru, 21 avril 2012 - 09:30 .

[Das Tentakel]

eroeru wrote...

Those are some cool posts here. But personally I wouldn't mind the weapon-stylistics that are in the concept art - DA is not the Witcher nor Mount and Blade - it tries to do something of its own. And while I prefer "real" weapons mostly, the Dragon Age universe feels as it really can deal with some unrealism successfully.

Really, I'd imagine such art-work as in Heroes of Might and Magic 3. Really mythological and fantasy, but with a solid, grim-looking style to it. Minus the fact that its more basic (which makes it cartoonish) in graphics.

I hope you're not referring to this



Though there is of course this



Which has a nice generic '80s fantasy feel to it, I admit

In-game, though, HOMM3 has nice a generic fantasy feel. It's also, I don't know, really, really old-fashioned, like '80s D&D art and fantasy covers.



Or are you referring to HOMM5?



Personally, I get the impression that the HOMM approach - which is extremely, intensely, deliberately and also I think fairly succesfully generic - is something Bioware doesn't want (though they are sort of stumbling across the line here and there). And I am not sure it fits DA in any way. But if that is what you like, I can understand why you would prefer a move in that direction.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 22 avril 2012 - 08:53 .

[Pzykozis]

Sejborg wrote...
Yeah. All that make sense. But why go and make something so extreme and unbelieavable as the Grey Wardens swords, when they can make simple diverse swords that still look deadly and practical. Like the swords you see here:
http://www.a2armory....avsworando.html 

Such swords won't need alot of textures and polycons I think. Also. Bioware can take the easy way, and use the same swords twice, and then just give them some orange color on the blades for rust and what not, and say they are the low level swords. Maybe take a two handed sword model, and make it look like its broken in half, for a legendary singlehanded sword. Suddenly you have reused a sword design and also given the new sword some history.

I found the DA2 design to be too extreme. One sword looks like a piece of wood with pearls, the next looks like a guytar and the last looks like a grandfather clock. The swords for this Grey Warden for DA3 gives me the feeling that this has not been corrected. 

You're right but there's not much apparent differentiation between claymores.. it's all about silohette and interesting design, I enjoy realistic weapons as much as the next person but as an artist they're a bit visually dull. I believe one of the mantras spoken whilst I was learning was go big or go home, not many people notice small changes it's far more important to make bigger changes visually.

Also from what I've seen DA engine doesn't handle Specular well at all. So making good looking realistic weaponry (and metal in general) is going to be tough since Specular makes or breaks metal (specular stuff is basically a texture that defines how light interacts with it, depending on the type of spec textures you use, matte objects are very dark grey / almost black and things like scratches on metal are near white.)

Whilst I'm here, scabbards.. I want them. give the animation team enough resources so they can have enough control to do it without the sword slicing through the scabbard each time please? Though I guess if you have odd shaped weapons it can't happen. Sad times.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 22 avril 2012 - 08:57 .

[Maria Caliban]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Personally, I get the impression that the HOMM approach - which is extremely, intensely, deliberately and also I think fairly succesfully generic - is something Bioware doesn't want (though they are sort of stumbling across the line here and there). And I am not sure it fits DA in any way. But if that is what you like, I can understand why you would prefer a move in that direction.

The art direction for Dragon Age was originally more 'savage and barbaric.' Then for Dragon Age: Origins they deliberately went for a generic look.

"According to Matt Goldman, art director for BioWare's Dragon Age II, being generic was an actual design principle for the Dragon Age: Origins art team. While Goldman didn't direct the art department that worked on Origins, he's familiar with the instructions the former team was given: "Actually, the design creative was 'it's generic,' which isn't the most inspirational direction that you could give a team." -Destructoid

I believe there's a new art director now. Sean? Shawn?


Edit:
Shane Hawco is lead artist. I don't know if that's the same thing as art director. I believe he was a character artist for DA:O and DA II. Here's an interview he did for pixologic.

Also a video, The Creatures of Dragon Age.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[eroeru]

@ 
Das Tentakel 

I *was* referring to HOMM3. (though certainly not to the Armageddon's Blade cover-image - could have done without the oversized sword and such)

I don't know about the word "generic", as I think it takes quite a bit of creativeness to make the designs work and I personally haven't seen that sort of stuff as much as I've seen realistic swords - but it is very D&D (which is often referred to as generic, sure) - exactly what I prefer in a Dragon Age game. In this sense, I think Maria Caliban is right. They have that sort of feel in DA:O - a game I vastly liked.

Which isn't to say I don't love The Witcher type aesthetic - it's brilliant. But I would not imagine that for DA.

By the way, HOMM 5's art work actually seemed disastrous to me - it was generic in a bad sense as it resembled all the WoW scrumbled up aesthetic, and didn't have any artistic feel to it. HOMM3 did, and I loved the game for that...

Modifié par eroeru, 22 avril 2012 - 01:55 .

[Sejborg]

Pzykozis wrote...

You're right but there's not much apparent differentiation between claymores.. it's all about silohette and interesting design, I enjoy realistic weapons as much as the next person but as an artist they're a bit visually dull. I believe one of the mantras spoken whilst I was learning was go big or go home, not many people notice small changes it's far more important to make bigger changes visually.

Also from what I've seen DA engine doesn't handle Specular well at all. So making good looking realistic weaponry (and metal in general) is going to be tough since Specular makes or breaks metal (specular stuff is basically a texture that defines how light interacts with it, depending on the type of spec textures you use, matte objects are very dark grey / almost black and things like scratches on metal are near white.)

Whilst I'm here, scabbards.. I want them. give the animation team enough resources so they can have enough control to do it without the sword slicing through the scabbard each time please? Though I guess if you have odd shaped weapons it can't happen. Sad times.

This might sound harsh. But I do not care what some artist think is visually dull or not. It is just his opinion, that swords needs to look like christmas trees or otherwise weird to not look dull. I disagree. I bet other artists will also disagree with that. Bigger is not always better. Far from it. Over the top is rarely good.

In this thread I have seen lots of different looking swords, that still look practical and deadly. They are simple and pointy in design, and that is an artistic choice that can be made. Just as flamboyant and discoball is another artistic design choice. 

If the engine bioware is using for DA can't render swords because of specular, then maybe it is time for another engine. 

As to scabbards. Yes please. That could also make the swords more diverse. 

[YohkoOhno]

When it comes to aesthetics, I think the following was a big concern.

Dragon Age: Origins, in all their marketing, talked about the influences of Dark Fantasy--Game of Thrones is a huge influence on Ferelden. You could also see the design of some of the ruins and other elements took influence from the Peter Jackson adaptations of Lord of the Rings.

I'm not sure why they decided to change the style so much. I assume one major reason was because it's easier to do more abstract, "graphic novel" influenced art--this theory is documented well in Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics". It also means you can do a lot more with less--Kingdoms of Amalur is one that gets the cartoonish influence right. However, the accelerated development time made for a mixed view--some areas got the remake (Elves, Quanari, Darkspawn), others didn't (Humans, Demons).

Worse, in doing this, they violated their own aesthetics. In a time when the "gritty realism" was becoming popular--Game of Thrones gets adapated for HBO, The Witcher 2 (based on the Dark Fantasy novels) gets released--Bioware decided to change the game. I think that really set off a WTF from the player base when it was released. (I was turned off by the Demo but luckilly I stayed and had fun with DA2).

TW2 has its own problems--people praise it's graphics--but there's a lot of things missing--there's a lack of choice in creature types compared to its predecessor--extra models for monsters would cost more, and you can see the flaws--lots of look-alike guards, faces that are similar, lack of variety for clothing--they chose to make the major NPCs specific but a lot of the grunts have a pretty similar look--that stupid half chin guard appears on many characters, for instance. There's definitely a cost for fidelity.