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How are the Salarians even a Council Race?


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#76
Barquiel

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Wulfram wrote...

Actually, they really should have been a little more selfish.  If they'd demanded that Shepard send a few of those Krogan their way in return for their help, rather than just helping out for free, then Thessia might still be standing.



Palaven is going to be clouded with ash dust and radioactive debris for years to come. I'd rather have no krogan troops on my homeworld ;)

But some salarian or alliance fleets would have been useful (there was an option in the leaked script...no idea why they cut it).

Modifié par Barquiel, 19 avril 2012 - 07:26 .


#77
humes spork

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Wulfram wrote...

I should clarify, since I think I've muddled my point here.

In general, the Salarians status as a Council power does make sense. They're presented as a major military power, if perhaps slightly below the other two old council races, and they make up for this by having exceptional scientific ability, and their skill at intelligence.

My problem is that this is not reflected at all in their War Assets, which are pitiful. Which takes away from one of the biggest choices in the game, since the sacrifices you make to win the full support of what is supposed to be a major superpower translate into you getting a smaller boost that you'd get from scanning a few planets.

You're the one playing armchair admiral here, you tell us how the race that specializes in subterfuge, espionage, and covert warfare is supposed to put up a fight against an enemy that's immune to subterfuge, espionage, and covert warfare as the heavy-hitter races.

Salarians engage in sabotage and subterfuge to confound the enemy's intelligence, and engage in espionage to gain intelligence on the enemy. Reapers aren't fooled by disinformation, and they don't use lines of communication that are monitorable.

Salarians engage in rear-rank and behind-line attacks by infiltration units to disrupt supply lines, reinforcement and communication. Reapers have no need or use for logistics.

Salarians engage in assassination to disrupt enemies' chains of command. Reapers have no discernible chains of command.

Salarians engage in premature and offensive warfare. They're already on the defensive, and can manage only at best a counter-offensive.

And, ancillarily all of these things have the side effect of damaging enemies' morale and reducing their fighting capacity and combat effectiveness as a result. Reapers are immune to psychological warfare.

Salarian ships and fleets are engineered and designed for a doctrine of rapid, decisive offense. Reaper ships are heavyweights and can only be brought down by attrition.

Modifié par humes spork, 19 avril 2012 - 08:06 .


#78
Wulfram

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IronVanguard wrote...

Or maybe the numbers in the war assets are just arbitrarily design points designed for gameplay and not accurate depictions of galactic society?


Well, from a gameplay point of view I'd say it's pretty bad. 

It means that Renegades who saved Wrex are stupidly screwed, because they lose masses for losing the Krogan but don't get the great power's worth of assets they earned from the Salarians. 

And Renegades who didn't save Wrex are still screwed, because they don't get anything like the reward they should.  And considering how hard the game tries to make you feel like a monster for taking this choice, you really should get a proper reward.

If you can get a 500+ point bump for getting the support of both the Quarians and the Geth, I don't see why you shouldn't get more or less the same for getting the support of both the Krogan and Salarians.

#79
Wulfram

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humes spork wrote...

You're the one playing armchair admiral here, you tell us how the race that specializes in subterfuge, espionage, and covert warfare is supposed to put up a fight against an enemy that's immune to subterfuge, espionage, and covert warfare as the heavy-hitter races.


By using the conventional assets which they need to have to be a credible council power, and which the game establishes them to have in large numbers, against the reapers.  Again, they have twice the number of Dreadnoughts as the Alliance.

Their conventional forces are generally set up to specialise in raiding, in swift attacks and in stealth.  But that's great.  That's how Admiral Hackett plans to use his forces, if you ask him about it - raid and probe, and when you spot a weak point attack in force.

They should also use their skills at subterfuge, espionage and covert warfare to counter Cerberus, who are important Reaper allies.

And most of all, they should use the scientific genius and talent for innovative technological solutions, which is one of their main defining characteristics, to contribute to the Crucible, which is practically designed to suit their abilities down to a T.

edit:  You edited while I was posting.  But I think I mostly
answered your points already - Hackett's main anti-reaper plan to fight
the reapers is to use Normandy like ships in a manner which is very much
taken from the Salarian playbook.  And he's just got stealth Frigates,
they've got stealth Dreadnoughts

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 avril 2012 - 08:09 .


#80
ADLegend21

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Wulfram wrote...

When even with full support from sabotaging the genophage cure they contribute such a mediocre amount of war assets.  Like, barely above the Volus.  Compared to the Krogan or the Quarians, it's just ridiculous.

I'm generally not sympathetic to claims of paragon favouritism, but here I have to say the renegades got screwed pretty badly.

First of all, they were the second species to find the Citadel in our cycle after the Asari, that and their entire race is super intelligent and they have incredible scientific and technological expertise. Secondly they aren't front line soldiers, the scout, do research and THEN attack at the weakest point to win battles and fights in one swift move. I can guaruntee if the salarians had responded to the humans actiating relays there'd have been no first contact war since they wouldn't have percieved us a threat since we just achieved space travel. Also you get the Salarians regardless if you saved the original council and then save their councilor, so even with the krogans getting cured they still help you. It's your own damn fault if you choose to turn down the Krogans who are great infantry.Image IPB

#81
Wulfram

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The Krogan may be great infantry, but there's hardly any of them and they must be equipped really poorly compared to the Salarians.

edit: and frankly, considering the universal military service among the Turians we should have far more infantry than we need anyway.  Ships, guns and technical expertise would be a far more valuable contribution.  And anyway, I didn't choose the Salarians over the Krogan, I got them both.

And you a little Salarian support if you save the council, but it's even less than the pitiful amount you get if you take the Dalatress' offer.

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 avril 2012 - 11:14 .


#82
PsYGuY508

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You really shouldn't take the war asset numbers serious. According to the war asset numbers, the alliance is far stronger then every race in the galaxy. The codex states otherwise. Besides even if you sabatoge the genophage, the salarians never commit their
full navy.

#83
Zix13

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Because Kirrahe.

#84
ahandsomeshark

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Because the war assets were not well thought out.

#85
ahandsomeshark

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What I never understood is why the Salarians would care about curing the genophage anyway. You'd think they could just put together another STG team after the war and reinfect them. Since according to Mordin they've already done something similar whenever the Krogan start to evolve.

#86
Bill Casey

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Wulfram wrote...

When even with full support from sabotaging the genophage cure they contribute such a mediocre amount of war assets.  Like, barely above the Volus.  Compared to the Krogan or the Quarians, it's just ridiculous.

I'm generally not sympathetic to claims of paragon favouritism, but here I have to say the renegades got screwed pretty badly.


Silly you...
You can't get the Salarians' full support...
They are quite clearly holding back on you...

They promise the finest scientists and engineers that never show up as assets...
The Salarian Special Tasks Group is glitched, and becomes an empty promise by Kirrahe...

You can't get both the Third Fleet and the STG Task Force...


Their assistance is half hearted...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 avril 2012 - 11:58 .


#87
Whitestrake

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Salarians being a council race has nothing to do with military strength same with the Asari. They aren't on the council because of their overwhelming military strength, they're on the council because the Salarians, & the Asari founded the council.

#88
Bill Casey

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Renard the Bard wrote...

Salarians being a council race has nothing to do with military strength same with the Asari. They aren't on the council because of their overwhelming military strength, they're on the council because the Salarians, & the Asari founded the council.


Here's the thing...

Alliance Engineering Corp - 250
Turian Engineering Corp - 110

Ex Cerberus Engineers - 10
Asari Engineers - 30
Volus Engineering Team - 50

Exogeni Scientists - 40
Ex Cerberus Scientists - 25
Asari Science Team - 90
Asari Research Ships - 35
Cerberus Research Data - 50

Turian Spec Ops Team - 40
Turian Blackwatch - 75
Shadow Broker Support Team - 40
Alliance Spec Ops Team Delta - 35
Armali Sniper Unit - 30



Special Ops, Science and Engineering are all things Salarians are known for...
If you saved the Council in ME1 for maximum Salarian support, you don't even get the STG assets...
You get two fleets, Mordin and Kirrahe...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 avril 2012 - 12:23 .


#89
humes spork

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Wulfram wrote...

By using the conventional assets which they need to have to be a credible council power, and which the game establishes them to have in large numbers, against the reapers.  Again, they have twice the number of Dreadnoughts as the Alliance.

Their conventional forces are generally set up to specialise in raiding, in swift attacks and in stealth.  But that's great.  That's how Admiral Hackett plans to use his forces, if you ask him about it - raid and probe, and when you spot a weak point attack in force.

They should also use their skills at subterfuge, espionage and covert warfare to counter Cerberus, who are important Reaper allies.

And most of all, they should use the scientific genius and talent for innovative technological solutions, which is one of their main defining characteristics, to contribute to the Crucible, which is practically designed to suit their abilities down to a T.

edit:  You edited while I was posting.  But I think I mostly
answered your points already - Hackett's main anti-reaper plan to fight
the reapers is to use Normandy like ships in a manner which is very much
taken from the Salarian playbook.  And he's just got stealth Frigates,
they've got stealth Dreadnoughts

First, citation please on that number of dreads.

Second, do you not understand the fact that the salarians' military strengths are in strategic elements to which the Reapers are extraordinarily resistant if not outright immune? Likewise, the strategic elements needed to counter the Reapers are those in which the salarians are vastly deficient? Why do you think I keep going on about echelons, formations, logistics, and attrition? They're worth fewer war assets because they're not as combat effective against Reaper forces as other races.

Third, the war assets total is what is applied to the Crucible, Sword/Shield and Hammer. Ostensibly, the salarians are aiding against Cerberus in their own way and according to their strengths, but this is not reflected in war assets because that is not relevant to the effective or total military strength. Yes I agree, it's somewhat silly the salarians do not have a war asset for the Crucible, but on the other hand one can assume given STG's skillset as a group (which you also receive whether in the form of AWOL STG teams or a formal commitment of STG forces) that when they're not engaged in clandestine warfare efforts in the Reaper war they are contributing to the Crucible itself.

Fourth, assets can only be generally delegated to one task at a time. If STG is doing scientific work on the Crucible, they're not fighting, and vice versa. If the salarian fleets are running backup for special ops throughout the galaxy, they're not participating in Sword/Shield. And, most importantly all of that is potentially outside the purview of Sword/Shield, Hammer and the Crucible, which is the focal point of war assets.

You don't get the krogan and turian forces deployed on Palaven resisting Reaper occupation, because they don't participate in the final push. There's no war asset for Kahje's planetary defense systems if you save them, because they're on Kahje (though, as a spinoff of better-securing Kahje you do get an increased hanar and drell presence as they are not needed to defend Kahje).

You don't get the First, Third through Fifth, and Seventh through Whateverth asari fleets, despite the asari by the end of the game fully committing to joint war operations with the other Citadel races, because they're not deployed to Sol in the final push. They're still in the war, just not participating in the final battle.

Modifié par humes spork, 20 avril 2012 - 03:07 .


#90
Whitestrake

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Bill Casey wrote...

Renard the Bard wrote...

Salarians being a council race has nothing to do with military strength same with the Asari. They aren't on the council because of their overwhelming military strength, they're on the council because the Salarians, & the Asari founded the council.


Here's the thing...

Alliance Engineering Corp - 250
Turian Engineering Corp - 110

Ex Cerberus Engineers - 10
Asari Engineers - 30
Volus Engineering Team - 50

Exogeni Scientists - 40
Ex Cerberus Scientists - 25
Asari Science Team - 90
Asari Research Ships - 35
Cerberus Research Data - 50

Turian Spec Ops Team - 40
Turian Blackwatch - 75
Shadow Broker Support Team - 40
Alliance Spec Ops Team Delta - 35
Armali Sniper Unit - 30



Special Ops, Science and Engineering are all things Salarians are known for...
If you saved the Council in ME1 for maximum Salarian support, you don't even get the STG assets...
You get two fleets, Mordin and Kirrahe...






Okay, but that has nothing to do with how they came to be a council race. And yes, the Salarians are really strangely misrepresented in the War Assets. But the numbers in the War Assets are just screwy in general. In my honest opinion almost none of them make sense. 
Regardless, the War Assets have absolutely nothing to do with the Salarians place on the council.  So either, were having two different conversations, or you're very confused. I'm pretty sure it's the first one, because all of your points sound like they're directed to the chat about War Asset discrepancies.
In which case Humes Spork said everything that needs to be said, quite eloquently.

 

#91
sH0tgUn jUliA

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If they're covert actions could be known, they would be heroes, but before that, they held the line. And yes they were the second race to discover the citadel. Highly advanced tech. Not warlike. Infiltration and espionage are their military thing. The Asari are built for commando stuff, and are great mediators. The turians are the military backbone, and very warlike -- birds of prey.

#92
MakeMineMako

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Wulfram wrote...

When even with full support from sabotaging the genophage cure they contribute such a mediocre amount of war assets.  Like, barely above the Volus.  Compared to the Krogan or the Quarians, it's just ridiculous.

I'm generally not sympathetic to claims of paragon favouritism, but here I have to say the renegades got screwed pretty badly.



The Salarians are a Council race because they are one of the founding governments behind the Citadel Council.

I get the impression that the whole 'military contribution' bit came along after the Turian Heirarchy joined up. I look at it as a way to keep the "big dogs" at the top of the power elite heap. It worked for millenia, until Humanity showed up and kinda threw the system for a loop.  

The Salarians are first rate power players, since they are good at playing dirty games. Hell, they'll even f**k over their own to get ahead. Read up on what happened to the League of One after the Salarians formed the Council with the Asari. Hell of a way to treat those who lay their lives on the line and give up everything for their homeland. It was kinda stupid to throw away such an asset, since the League made the Special Tasks Groups look like rank amateurs. But such is the way of Realpolitik.

#93
Randy1012

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The volus were the third species to discover the Citadel. So if the salarians hadn't shown up when they did, would the volus have been on the Council instead? :bandit:
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#94
IanPolaris

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Actually I think the Salarians had been living on their reputation and resting on their laurals for some time (as have the Asari but this thread is about the Salarians) and when the big bad reapers showed up suprising everyone, the Salarians folded like a deck of cards. To put it bluntly, I think even with Cerberus, the Salarians were shown to be an 'emperor with no cloths'.

If there is a workable galactic council and society after this war (big if), I suspect the Salarians are going to have some political problems given how little they contributed.

-Polaris

#95
MakeMineMako

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Randy1083 wrote...

The volus were the third species to discover the Citadel. So if the salarians hadn't shown up when they did, would the volus have been on the Council instead? :bandit:



In all likelyhood, yes.

But I find it incredibly stupid that the Volus don't have a seat, since they literally organized a smooth galactic economic system, client race or not.  
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#96
Randy1012

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MakeMineMako wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

The volus were the third species to discover the Citadel. So if the salarians hadn't shown up when they did, would the volus have been on the Council instead? :bandit:

In all likelyhood, yes.

But I find it incredibly stupid that the Volus don't have a seat, since they literally organized a smooth galactic economic system, client race or not.

I agree with you. The whole Council setup is seriously screwed up anyway.

#97
MakeMineMako

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Randy1083 wrote...

MakeMineMako wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

The volus were the third species to discover the Citadel. So if the salarians hadn't shown up when they did, would the volus have been on the Council instead? :bandit:

In all likelyhood, yes.

But I find it incredibly stupid that the Volus don't have a seat, since they literally organized a smooth galactic economic system, client race or not.

I agree with you. The whole Council setup is seriously screwed up anyway.


I agree. After the war, if it's possible, a major change in galactic government is needed.

#98
MakeMineMako

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IanPolaris wrote...

Actually I think the Salarians had been living on their reputation and resting on their laurals for some time (as have the Asari but this thread is about the Salarians) and when the big bad reapers showed up suprising everyone, the Salarians folded like a deck of cards. To put it bluntly, I think even with Cerberus, the Salarians were shown to be an 'emperor with no cloths'.

If there is a workable galactic council and society after this war (big if), I suspect the Salarians are going to have some political problems given how little they contributed.

-Polaris



It makes me wonder who the new power players will be?

#99
humes spork

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IanPolaris wrote...

If there is a workable galactic council and society after this war (big if), I suspect the Salarians are going to have some political problems given how little they contributed.

-Polaris

I very strongly doubt that. The salarians tend to play their cards very closely to their chests, and rely upon misdirection, misinformation, and preemptive measures as the main thrust of their doctrine and power.

Those are not things which work well against Reapers for reasons I have repeatedly stated throughout this thread and will not reiterate here. However, those are things which work overwhelmingly well against other organic races for, again, reasons I have repeatedly stated throughout this thread and will not reiterate here.

To support the assertion of how closely salarians play their hands, keep in mind that before (and unless) Shepard sabotages the genophage cure, nobody knows, expects, or even thinks it's possible the salarians have an entire fleet of stealth dreadnoughts. Given that, how many other toys might the salarians have lying around "just in case"? Especially for the sake the salarians contributed least to the Reaper war effort. The turians, humans and asari broke their own backs fighting off the Reapers, when salarians by the end of the war were relatively untouched.

When a race that doesn't merely specialize but makes the base of its very doctrine misinformation, the appearance of a relative lack of military power -- precisely what you cite -- is a very dangerous thing, indeed.

Modifié par humes spork, 22 avril 2012 - 04:22 .


#100
MakeMineMako

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humes spork wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If there is a workable galactic council and society after this war (big if), I suspect the Salarians are going to have some political problems given how little they contributed.

-Polaris

I very strongly doubt that. The salarians tend to play their cards very closely to their chests, and rely upon misdirection, misinformation, and preemptive measures as the main thrust of their doctrine and power.

Those are not things which work well against Reapers for reasons I have repeatedly stated throughout this thread and will not reiterate here. However, those are things which work overwhelmingly well against other organic races for, again, reasons I have repeatedly stated throughout this thread and will not reiterate here.

To support the assertion of how closely salarians play their hands, keep in mind that before (and unless) Shepard sabotages the genophage cure, nobody knows, expects, or even thinks it's possible the salarians have an entire fleet of stealth dreadnoughts. Given that, how many other toys might the salarians have lying around "just in case"? Especially for the sake the salarians contributed least to the Reaper war effort. The turians, humans and asari broke their own backs fighting off the Reapers, when salarians by the end of the war were relatively untouched.

When a race that doesn't merely specialize but makes the base of its very doctrine misinformation, the appearance of a relative lack of military power -- precisely what you cite -- is a very dangerous thing, indeed.




If this plays out like you outlined, then the balance of galactic power will be upset. Assuming they survive, the only race that could act as a foil to Salarian ambitions would be the Geth. And the Geth have shown little inclination to get involved in affairs outside of their and Quarian interests (other than the Reaper threat).

The only wrench in this is the Salarian military. The military largely supported a united effort as opposed to playing international political games, thus a growing rift between them and the Dalatrasses. If they hold to this, I seriously doubt they would back any power plays by their government while the galaxy struggles to rebuild. The worst case scenario would be a civil war. But that's my take on it. You may disagree.

Modifié par MakeMineMako, 22 avril 2012 - 04:37 .