145 réponses à ce sujet

[ronnok]

humes spork wrote...

First, citation please on that number of dreads.

 As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human.
Source

[Bill Casey]

Hooray, new Council!



Councillor Geth Collosus has the floor...

[ImperatorMortis]

They aren't front line grunt military. They specialize in stealth, and reconansance. They prefer to end a war, not with artillary, but with a snipers bullet. 

They like to use a little something called "finesse". 

Bill Casey wrote...

Hooray, new Council!



Councillor Geth Collosus has the floor...

 

Must be one big ass floor...

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 22 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

[Bill Casey]

Councillor Geth Collosus: "This unit is not properly suited for this assignment."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 22 avril 2012 - 05:06 .

[eoinnx03]

Because 'THEY WOULD BE LEGEND'

[formshifter]

[quote]Unholyknight800 wrote...

You can get both if you kill wrex in ME1

[/quote]
NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/quote]

Couldn;t you get them both if you simply didn't recruit him in ME1? 

Anyway, Correct me if I am wrong, but the amount of war assets you lose from having Wrex and Eve dead is FAR less than you gain from the Salarians, no? 

Hell, in my playthrough I've got STG (well, Kirrahe, because it doesn;t say STG) and One fleet. Total EMS: 158 w/ 100% readiness.

Krogan EMS: 855 (and that's WITHOUT Eve, so Krogans could go even higher)
Geth EMS: 805 
Quarian EMS: 575
Turian EMS: 600 something (can't remember the exact amount)
Asari EMS: 600 something (can't remember the exact amount)

So, this means that the second space faring race, and one of the original three on the Council, has less than a quarter of the military strength of the other two. A species they uplifted has over 5x the military strength. A 300 year old synthetic species has over 5x their EMS. The Quarians, after getting beaten half to death by the re-written Geth Heretics, have nearly 4x the EMS of the Salarians.

I don't care what your ideals and battle doctrine is. There is NO REASON for such a major galactic player to be so militarily weak. All it would take was one Shepard or Garrus getting pissed and leading a large army to crush them.

[formshifter]

OOps, double post

Modifié par formshifter, 22 avril 2012 - 03:17 .

[Bill Casey]

formshifter wrote...

Anyway, Correct me if I am wrong, but the amount of war assets you lose from having Wrex and Eve dead is FAR more than you gain from the Salarians, no?

I'm pretty sure if Wrex and Eve are dead, you sabotage the Genophage, and Mordin lives, it's slightly higher over all than if Wrex and Eve are alive and you cure the genophage...

But that also crushes Mordin's spirit, and leaves Urdnot Wreav in charge of a bunch of increasingly desperate Krogan...

Hell, in my playthrough I've got STG (well, Kirrahe, because it doesn;t say STG)

Apparently, if you let Major Kirrahe die in ME1, you actually get more war assets by unlocking Salarian Special Tasks Group instead...

What the hell...

formshifter wrote...

I don't care what your ideals and battle doctrine is. There is NO REASON for such a major galactic player to be so militarily weak. All it would take was one Shepard or Garrus getting pissed and leading a large army to crush them.

I don't think the Salarians are fully committed to the war effort...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 22 avril 2012 - 05:29 .

[IanPolaris]

The available evidence tells me that the Salarians may be holding back, but the other races who are far more militarily capable won't stand for it. The problem with playing the 'soft' game like the Salarians (and Asari) do depends on having other races ALLOW you to get away with it. That is why the Rachni were such a lethal threat to Council space. Neither the Salarians or Asari were capable of fighting a foe that couldn't be reasoned with, didn't have traitors (by definition), and didn't have a real infrastructure. Had the Turians been members of the council then (or even the humans), I suspect the Krogan would never have been uplifted.

Also remember that a council spectre just caught the Salarians going behind the council's back and uplifting the dangerous Yahg without permission. If you think that even the Asari are going to let the Salarians get away with all this after their homeworlds have suffered and Sur'Kesh hasn't....well...that isn't going to happen. What's more, I think the SSTG is well aware of just how much bad blood the Dalatrass' rank stupidity is generating and how much it's liable to cost the Salarian union in the long run. I think a major "realignment" of Salarian politics is likely very soon.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Bill Casey wrote...


Apparently, if you let Major Kirrahe die in ME1, you actually get more war assets by unlocking Salarian Special Tasks Group instead...

What the hell...

If I am reading the programing notes correctly in the .bin files, you are supposed to get STG1 (the 35 point one) if Maj Kirrahe is alive in ADDITION to Kirrahe.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

They aren't front line grunt military. They specialize in stealth, and reconansance. They prefer to end a war, not with artillary, but with a snipers bullet. 

They like to use a little something called "finesse". 

The problem is you can't fight and win a war only with finesse.  You can 'finesse' to get the most force multiplier you can, and you can do a lot to get the most for the fewest number of assets, but ultimately you need boots on the ground carrying rifles or you lose.  Our militaries on earth learned this the hard way in the last half of the 20th century.  Sounds like the Salarians (and Asari) are getting their own rude awakening (which is stupid because the Rachni proved the point 2000 years ago to both!)

-Polaris

[humes spork]

MakeMineMako wrote...

If this plays out like you outlined, then the balance of galactic power will be upset. Assuming they survive, the only race that could act as a foil to Salarian ambitions would be the Geth. And the Geth have shown little inclination to get involved in affairs outside of their and Quarian interests (other than the Reaper threat).

The only wrench in this is the Salarian military. The military largely supported a united effort as opposed to playing international political games, thus a growing rift between them and the Dalatrasses. If they hold to this, I seriously doubt they would back any power plays by their government while the galaxy struggles to rebuild. The worst case scenario would be a civil war. But that's my take on it. You may disagree.

Well, I doubt the salarians would make a power play or attempt to perform a coup. It's not in their nature to be in a position that would draw undue attention. It's better for them, and more aligned with their nature, to take a prominent backseat role in whatever political structure would develop in the wake of the Reaper war. If there would be political strife, it would most likely be internal given the events of the Reaper war opposed to external for the reasons you mentioned.

I can very easily see the salarians in whatever power vacuum exists after the war using their own military strength as a provisional security force until the turians and/or humans rebuild, and leveraging that against whatever ill will may exist for not participating fully in the Reaper war. Salarians aren't stupid, merely pragmatic.

 As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human.
Source 

Ah, thank you. Are there any sources as to the number of carriers the Alliance has opposed to the other Citadel races of which you are aware? I know none, myself. Though, I do bring that up because the Alliance uses(d) carriers to circumvent the Treaty of Farixen before they became a Council race opposed to just a Citadel race.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sir Adamus wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Hopefully after the war that idiotic Dalatrass got removed from power if you cured the Krogan.

Dalatrasses are Salarian family heads, and they each hold a lot of power. I imagine the Solus Dalatrass is getting mad props for Mordin's sacrifice.

From the Krogan, sure, but that's as likely to be political kryptonite as not in the Salarian politics.

It'd be like the Soviet Union endorsing a US presidential candidate. People would react against just in reflex.

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I dunno, maybe because THEY ARE THE 2ND RACE THAT DISCOVERED CITADEL AND FOUNDED COUNCIL WITH ASARI!

And that might be relevant 2000 years ago.  But why are people going to keep listening to them when the Quarians could roll over them in moments?  Why care about them when their ability to contribute to a galactic war is less than the few battered and ill equipped remnants of the Krogan?

An international system needs to have some relevance to reality.  Otherwise we'd give the Byzantine Empire a seat on the security council

What makes you think that the salarians weren't just holding back the lionshare of their forces for their own use?

Or using them elsewhere in the galaxy, and just not in direct support of Shepard?

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I dunno, maybe because THEY ARE THE 2ND RACE THAT DISCOVERED CITADEL AND FOUNDED COUNCIL WITH ASARI!

And that might be relevant 2000 years ago.  But why are people going to keep listening to them when the Quarians could roll over them in moments?  Why care about them when their ability to contribute to a galactic war is less than the few battered and ill equipped remnants of the Krogan?

An international system needs to have some relevance to reality.  Otherwise we'd give the Byzantine Empire a seat on the security council

We let France and Britain have a seat.

[/he went there]

All kidding aside, the Salarians are still a major military power... even if they don't contribute as much to Shepard as other races. Confusing commitment with capability seems to be the common mistake of this thread.

[Dean_the_Young]

humes spork wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Not only that, but Weekes believes that had the Asari not cheated via their Prothean Beacon/goddess, the Salarians might have been first. They were the only race to discover the citadel without outside help.

Yep. Really puts the question of "why do the relays need to be destroyed?" really in perspective, especially in light of the fact that over the course of at least two and a half millennia salarians didn't figure out stuff like IES and QEC tech on their own. Even the salarians were technologically stagnant for that time period.

Except the clame of no technological progression is, well, presumed and not well supported. It presumes that the development of technologies like QEM and stealth could have been done at any time in the past... rather than an alternative, that the Council races spent the hard capital building the scientific base and then Humanity learned that from them before taking it on to the finish.

[MakeMineMako]

ronnok wrote...

humes spork wrote...

First, citation please on that number of dreads.

 As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human.
Source

The Systems Alliance gets around treaty restrictions on dreadnoughts by deploying carriers, which offer superior flexibility and serious firepower (in terms of fighters). So, the Alliance Navy has more heavy duty punch than their lack of dreadnoughts would imply.

This just made me think of this, so I thought I would point it out for the hell of it. Not replying to any point in particular.

[Wulfram]

All the dialogue says that they're fully committed. If we got people complaining about the Salarians holding back, that would be different.

[MakeMineMako]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

What I never understood is why the Salarians would care about curing the genophage anyway. You'd think they could just put together another STG team after the war and reinfect them. Since according to Mordin they've already done something similar whenever the Krogan start to evolve.

Which would ****** off the Systems Alliance and Turian Hierarchy (who are backed by the Krogan Clans).

[JBPBRC]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

The tech may have come in handy for the crucible but that's all I can see really aside from raw military strength that would be useful. I don't see intelligence being useful against reapers in a conventional sense, I mean good if you get warning that they are coming your way buuuut then what? Stay and fight anyway or leg it?

Intelligence against the Reapers would be awesome in a coventional sense. The weakness of a Reaper Destroyer for instance. Or take Thane's LOTSB files, where he lists the most effective techniques for taking down members of each species, from Salarians to Krogans. Now, apply this to Reaper Husk forms. Are they vulnerable to a particular type of ammunition? What would the best killshots be? Does one type of Husk have a greater resistance to biotics or vice versa? How about Reaper tactics? Its all about knowing your enemy.

Hell, its why the Reapers normally take over the damn Citadel every cycle. Its the center of galactic power and after the relay network is shut off, the Reapers use the knowledge contained by that cycle's ruling governement to dissect the galaxy piecemeal until the time comes for the next cycle.

Bioware had lots of opportunities to implement this into actual gameplay. Maybe utilizing the full power of the Salarian and Shadow Broker intel gathering capabilities could be transferred to say, increased damage against types of Reaperized Husks that you put war assets into researching. Or damage resistance against their weapons. New weapons could've been introduced in this way. Different cross-class opportunities could've been unlocked to make fights against Reaper foes easier. Advanced recon teams could give you insights as to what you faced on your next mission when you selected it, giving you the perfect intel you needed to optimize what weapons you brought and what companions you took with you to best suit the mission.

"What's that? Lots and lots and lots of Husks below eh?"

or "So right before the colony went dark some unidentified shuttlecraft that may or may not be linked with Cerberus were seen advancing on the control center?"

Alas, this isn't what we got.

Went slightly off-topic, but yeah. Salarians aren't meant to be a huge military force like the Krogans or Turians. Where Krogans are meant to be used like a large sledgehammer to smash anything and everything to pieces, Salarians are a scalpel, they can be used to help strike at an enemy and neutralize them, or at the very least hit them hard enough with the most minimum effort that other parties like the Turians can mop up more easily.

Case in point? The Genophage.

[Wulfram]

It's really the Krogan who are ill suited to fighting the Reapers. Conventional heavy infantry of that sort can be simply destroyed from orbit whenever they assemble in meaningful strength. And they don't have any ships whatsoever of course. And there aren't many of them.

[JBPBRC]

Wulfram wrote...

It's really the Krogan who are ill suited to fighting the Reapers. Conventional heavy infantry of that sort can be simply destroyed from orbit whenever they assemble in meaningful strength. And they don't have any ships whatsoever of course. And there aren't many of them.

If the Reapers had stuck to just being giant alien starships this would be true. However, one of their primary tactics seems to be swarming an opponent with Huskified versions of the local species. Plus for those who cured the Genophage, numbers wouldn't be a problem for very long. Not much else to say really other than:

KROGAN SMASH. KROGAN IS THE STRONGEST THERE IS! WAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHH!!!

[humes spork]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

... rather than an alternative, that the Council races spent the hard capital building the scientific base and then Humanity learned that from them before taking it on to the finish.

Then it's by mere serendipity that humanity developed those technologies during that 40-year window? The method by which the game and codex describe IES technology in particular is that it is not a particularly advanced or difficult feat of engineering (we actually use lithium for heat transfer, storage and sinking today in the real world), merely one that required unconventional thinking to develop.

All the dialogue says that they're fully committed. If we got people complaining about the Salarians holding back, that would be different. 

There are claims (most notably made by salarians in high-ranking political positions, and those taking the word of said salarians) salarians are fully-committed. Never assume a narrator, especially one already noteworthy for deception, is reliable by merit of being a narrator alone. That's the kind of thing that leads to people jumping and screaming plothole and/or retcon at the drop of a pin. Let's not start engaging in selective skepticism, shall we?

Alas, this isn't what we got. 

That's exactly what you got. Intelligence that contributes directly to series' of tactical or operational victories that still amount to strategic losses.

Case in point, the Battle of Palaven and its corresponding codex entry. That was a decisive tactical victory in nearly every sense of the word, yet was still a strategic loss envinced by the turian fleets' need to withdraw to Palaven to defend civilian populations when Reaper forces ran the turian blockade by merit of sheer numbers. Those things you mention are already in the game, already exposited and already used and still don't amount to the strategic victories needed to win the war.

Modifié par humes spork, 22 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[Justicar-Ilua]

They also only live 40 years..which means there's gonna be 25 Salarian councilors for every 1 Asari councillor

[Wulfram]

JBPBRC wrote...

If the Reapers had stuck to just being giant alien starships this would be true. However, one of their primary tactics seems to be swarming an opponent with Huskified versions of the local species. Plus for those who cured the Genophage, numbers wouldn't be a problem for very long. Not much else to say really other than:

KROGAN SMASH. KROGAN IS THE STRONGEST THERE IS! WAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHH!!!

Fighting the husk with conventional forces is impractical if those husks are backed up by the giant alien starships.  Commando forces like the Asari and Salarians use are much better suited, because they aren't vulnerable to orbital bombardment.

And in any case, we should have more than enough regular soldiers from the Turians, since they have universal military service and a far greater population than the Krogan.  As well as proper discipline, training and equipment.

Curing the Genophage will only be relevant after the war has already been lost or won.  Krogan females are only just starting to become pregnant as the fight for earth starts.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 avril 2012 - 02:46 .