114 réponses à ce sujet

[android654]

God Of War creator discusses the "need" to remove interactive story telling from games in order to improve them.

When I first downloaded God of War creator David Jaffe's PSN game, Calling All Cars, I didn't quit playing until my thumbs literally grew too sore to continue. The game borrowed heavily from NBA Jam despite its cops & robbers aesthetic, and like that arcade classic, my friends and I fought down to the wire in every round. Though Jaffe has in the past referred to the game as a "mistake," I would place it above the original God of War as my favorite game of his. I know it seems strange to value a forgotten PSN downloadable title above one of the best PS2 games of all time, but I've come to a point where I prefer experiences that don't aspire to tell a grand story, and I'm thankful that game creators like Jaffe feel the same way.

Jaffe explained his feelings to other game makers in a presentation recorded by Gamespot at last week's DICE summit, "My talk is actually a warning about why we shouldn't tell stories with our video games. I think it's a bad idea. I think it's a waste of resources and time and money and more importantly I think it actually stunts, and has stunted over the last ten years or so, the medium of video games."

He distinguished "player authored stories," in games like Skyrim, where the game's mechanics are "so compelling and engaging that the player by the very nature of playing the game ... is the story," and traditional games created "with the intent purpose of expressing a story... or giving the player the designer's narrative."

Jaffe claimed the industry has mistakenly focused on storytelling since the early 90s, and elaborated in a recent interview, "I think with...the advent of CDs for game storage, and then high end graphics and voice actors and all this -- cutscenes -- games kind of got off on a bit of a wrong track that was very appealing, but it wasn't necessarily the only track we should have got off on. And I think that's what the lesson taught me. I want to get really good at the other track, and I don't want to try and make a cinematic game. I want to try and make a great game, if that makes sense at all." Jaffe told Gamasutra.

A few years ago I would have dismissed Jaffe's remarks. I felt much like 1UP boards poster V4Viewtiful, who wrote on Jaffe's talk, "I'm sure we'd all choose gameplay, but all that leaves is Asteroids, Tetris and racing games. Even Super Mario, hell even Donkey Kong had a story." The industry has been obsessed with creating film-like experiences for as long as I can remember, holding up some mythical fusion of gameplay and story up as a Platonic Ideal to strive towards. To suggest that developers and publishers have been driving the industry in the wrong direction for the better part of two decades seems radical, but over the past few years I've harbored my own doubts about the supremacy of story in games. Recently I find myself attracted to those games which place the narrative in the back seat. I don't mean I want to spend all my free game time playing Bejewelled, but I can't seem to find the motivation to finish The Witcher 2 and Enslaved: Odyssey to the West while Shogun 2 and Battlefield 3 dominate my play time. Jaffe made a similar distinction when speaking to Gamasutra:

"And a lot of people...heard my DICE talk, and they think what I meant was I want to go off and make iOS abstract Tetris games that are just pure abstraction. And it's not that. I still very much believe in IP. I believe in context -- both the commercial value of context and what it does to the user.

I think the biggest thing I learned is I don't want to try to make movies through games. I want to try to make experiences that speak respectfully and powerfully, using the language of interactivity. You hear a lot of people talk about the "language of cinema," and there is a language of interactivity, and there's a necessity to understanding interactivity."

The success of multiplayer action titles, which use setting and context to help players create their own story, shows that many players feel the same as Jaffe, just look at the number of Call of Duty players who ignore the game's campaign and head straight into multiplayer. These players love their game but don't realize that the industry's focus on the "cinematic" stunts their own experience.

By chasing movies game makers have slowed the growth of game mechanics. Last year's crop of first-person-shooters, as we pointed out at the time, look and play nearly identical because the industry has let mechanical innovation languish in favor of a ceaseless quest to perfect film-like elements like set pieces, audio and graphical quality, or higher-fidelity cutscenes. While publishers and game makers can point to valid business and market reasons for their focus, imagine an industry that took Jaffe's view of things. "We found ourselves seduced by the power of film...and sort of going down this road...and the expectations of films we began to put on games and they looked like movies, and were starting to feel like movies, and we thought we had to provide the same experience as movies. In that we lost a lot of the fundamentals that make the medium special." he said at DICE.

Not all players feel the same way, some still believe games can strike the right balance between story and mechanics, "Give us both. Also, stop letting the programmers, who do nothing else at night but watch crappy anime cartoons, write the stories for these games. Hire some actual writers," wrote poster zma1013. While this directive to use qualified writers sounds great, the studios that have made the investment don't necessarily produce games that reflect that investment. Epic invested substantially into the writing for Gears of War 3, but the final product could only be called good or excellent with the qualifier, "for a game."

Given the astounding amounts of money that cinematic games can generate, those experience won't disappear from your console anytime soon, but Jaffe does raise a significant issue, even the most flush game makers must cope with finite resources, and so long as investing in a game's cinematic elements offers a substantial return on investment, publisher and developers will divert money, time, and talent from a game's mechanical elements.

[Khayness]

By chasing movies game makers have slowed the growth of game mechanics. Last year's crop of first-person-shooters, as we pointed out at the time, look and play nearly identical because the industry has let mechanical innovation languish in favor of a ceaseless quest to perfect film-like elements like set pieces, audio and graphical quality, or higher-fidelity cutscenes.

Yeah, that's why we have regenerating health and 2 guns. What happened to most shooters since Half Life 2? 1 year development cycle and shameless money grabbing, thats what.

[UnstableMongoose]

Games are a lot of different things. Jaffe is right about a being an albatross if it has no purpose other than to try and make your game more like a movie. But some games are about telling stories, and they'll always need those stories, or there is no game.

The fact that overspending on story content in an unnecessary way has slowed development down in some titles is not necessarily indicative of an industry sickness. It's the indication that some people made bad games. There have always been bad games made for no other reason than to turn a quick profit on an IP; this has been true for decades, and is no way related to the advent of higher storage for game content.

Those who innovate will excel, and leave those who do not in the dust. The presence of a story or lack thereof has nothing to do with how quickly games are advancing. It's about who is willing to take the next big step, and who isn't.

Mr. Jaffe would do well to remember that the biggest game of his career was nothing more than a Devil May Cry derivative with some thematic elements like story, characters, and setting changed.

[Fortack]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

But some games are about telling stories, and they'll always need those stories, or there is no game.

Games without gameplay are no games. Story telling in the simplest form is on par with stuff like audio - you can make a (good) game without sound, but cool sfx and/or music can make the overall experience better. There is nothing wrong with adding a story but it should never be the main aim for game developers.

However, when story telling gets interactive - so the choices players make affect how event unfold - it's solid gameplay and has every reason to exist in games. Unfortunately, there are very few games that accomplish anything of the sort.

[android654]

Fortack wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

But some games are about telling stories, and they'll always need those stories, or there is no game.

Games without gameplay are no games. Story telling in the simplest form is on par with stuff like audio - you can make a (good) game without sound, but cool sfx and/or music can make the overall experience better. There is nothing wrong with adding a story but it should never be the main aim for game developers.

However, when story telling gets interactive - so the choices players make affect how event unfold - it's solid gameplay and has every reason to exist in games. Unfortunately, there are very few games that accomplish anything of the sort.

But there is no solid definition of gameplay. The concept of gameplay in itself must be fluid in order for games to have a market to thrive in. So as long as the interactive portion is intact, then so is the game aspect. The problem with removing story telling is it removes the incentive to play the game. Why buy a console or a pc when going to the arcade for an hour yields the same level of satisfaction?

[Fortack]

android654 wrote...

But there is no solid definition of gameplay. The concept of gameplay in itself must be fluid in order for games to have a market to thrive in. So as long as the interactive portion is intact, then so is the game aspect. The problem with removing story telling is it removes the incentive to play the game. Why buy a console or a pc when going to the arcade for an hour yields the same level of satisfaction?

Gameplay is what distinguishes a game from a non-interactive medium such as a book or film through the interaction with the game by the player. Often the game designer will seek to provide challenges for players through the design of game mechanics that it is hoped to be found entertaining by the player. [wikipedia]

This pretty much sums it up.

Stories and story telling are great when they improve the overall experience. They can make playing games more fun by adding context, for example. But it has nothing to do with gameplay which is the main thing that seperates games from other media suchs as books and movies.

You can say the same thing about art design, voice acting, graphics, audio, etc etc. They are important features but they don't make games. I play games because I like having a certain level of control over the things happening in them. Watching cutscenes does not give anything of the sort thus is not related to gaming in any way. Therefore they should not be(come) the main thing game developers should focus on. When they do, they've chosen the wrong profession and should have become movie producers or something like that instead.

[android654]

greengoron89 wrote...

Sounds like a load of hogwash to me.

Especially when the main selling point of his signature franchise is ridign entirely on the personality and marketability of the main character, not the gameplay mechanics.

[bEVEsthda]

I think emergent story is fine in itself. But what is bad is when developers start to make author's and movie director's ambitions their own: That is - tell the gamer their story, their way, with their dramatics.
They should leave space for the player instead.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 19 avril 2012 - 08:01 .

[Dominus]

Different game developers/designers are going to have a variety of philosophies of what does, and doesn't belong in a game. Some, like Nintendo, will greatly value gameplay over storylining. Some, like Quantic Dream, will greatly value storylining over gameplay. Some look for something in the middle of the road; you could argue BioWare does that with some of their titles to an extent.

I personally disagree with David Jaffe. He's a good guy, but I disagree. It really depends on how the cinematics are done. You can't just hold a pitchfork and say "that aspect of gaming is evil and must be destroyed".

Modifié par DominusVita, 19 avril 2012 - 08:23 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Depends on the game. True, cinematic storytelling probably would just bog down Pac Man. But in an RPG, story is key.

If I wanted to play an RPG with no story, I'd play Diablo.

[Nameless one7]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Depends on the game. True, cinematic storytelling probably would just bog down Pac Man. But in an RPG, story is key.

If I wanted to play an RPG with no story, I'd play Diablo.

Diablo has a story, a very short one but a story no less.

[Aerevane]

Nameless one7 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Depends on the game. True, cinematic storytelling probably would just bog down Pac Man. But in an RPG, story is key.

If I wanted to play an RPG with no story, I'd play Diablo.

Diablo has a story, a very short one but a story no less.

Demons! Stop them! The end.

[Rockworm503]

 This is the same guy who left God of War to make remake a car combat where story is pretty much non existant.
I don't feel like listening to what he has to say.

[naughty99]

android654 wrote...

Fortack wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

But some games are about telling stories, and they'll always need those stories, or there is no game.

Games without gameplay are no games. Story telling in the simplest form is on par with stuff like audio - you can make a (good) game without sound, but cool sfx and/or music can make the overall experience better. There is nothing wrong with adding a story but it should never be the main aim for game developers.

However, when story telling gets interactive - so the choices players make affect how event unfold - it's solid gameplay and has every reason to exist in games. Unfortunately, there are very few games that accomplish anything of the sort.

But there is no solid definition of gameplay. The concept of gameplay in itself must be fluid in order for games to have a market to thrive in. 

Are you able to move around and interact with objects and actors? Then you are experiencing gameplay.

Are you locked in a movie cutscene? That is not gameplay.

Modifié par naughty99, 19 avril 2012 - 09:38 .

[Chromie]

naughty99 wrote...
Are you able to move around and interact with objects and actors? Then you are experiencing gameplay.

Are you locked in a movie cutscene? That is not gameplay.

Are you saying Heavy Rain is not a game?

[Fishy]

I call it the Final Fantasy syndrome.

[Khayness]

Aerevane wrote...

Demons! Stop them! The end.

Shame I have no interest in playing D3, there is actually an interesting plot involving a secret Pact amongst a few demons and angels, creating Sanctuary with the hybrid humans who are supposedly stronger than their creators, but they put a power limiter on them which is gone now.

[android654]

Skelter192 wrote...

naughty99 wrote...
Are you able to move around and interact with objects and actors? Then you are experiencing gameplay.

Are you locked in a movie cutscene? That is not gameplay.

Are you saying Heavy Rain is not a game?

Evewrything in Heavy Rain is interactive. Its rare to hear two lines of dialogue without being able to interact with the situation.

@Naughty99
There have been cutscenes since Mario. There is no game to date that has removed gameplay entirely, so that definition doesn't apply to anything made.

[naughty99]

android654 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

naughty99 wrote...
Are you able to move around and interact with objects and actors? Then you are experiencing gameplay.

Are you locked in a movie cutscene? That is not gameplay.

Are you saying Heavy Rain is not a game?

Evewrything in Heavy Rain is interactive. Its rare to hear two lines of dialogue without being able to interact with the situation.

@Naughty99
There have been cutscenes since Mario. There is no game to date that has removed gameplay entirely, so that definition doesn't apply to anything made.

What I'm saying is that the cutscene is not part of the gameplay.

There are great games with lots of cutscenes that are enjoyable. However the part of the game where you are locked in place and just watching a cinematic movie is not the gameplay part of the game, as you are not actively playing, just observing.

Skelter192 wrote...

naughty99 wrote...
Are you able to move around and interact with objects and actors? Then you are experiencing gameplay.

Are you locked in a movie cutscene? That is not gameplay.

Are you saying Heavy Rain is not a game?

 

I've never played it before, but I'm assuming it has to be more than just a long ass movie where you are sitting there passively observing.

Modifié par naughty99, 19 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[Rockworm503]

Metal Gear Solid 4.
Thats how you don't do it.
I have nothing against cutscenes to tell the story but for god sakes I shouldn't be watching more than playing.
Dear lord that game turned me off the entire series!

[naughty99]

And if you have a lot of cutscenes in your game, especially at the beginning, please, for the love of all things holy, make those cutscenes skippable!

Otherwise it kills the replay value of the game.

Even the very first time I start a new game, often I want to skip any intro cut scenes and dive right into actually playing.

Modifié par naughty99, 19 avril 2012 - 11:13 .

[Morroian]

android654 wrote...

God Of War creator discusses the "need" to remove interactive story telling from games in order to improve them.

So the Adventure game genre is no good then. 

[android654]

Morroian wrote...

android654 wrote...

God Of War creator discusses the "need" to remove interactive story telling from games in order to improve them.

So the Adventure game genre is no good then. 

According to the guy who took a japanese game and changed the color scheme and used the story to sell it. Which is a shame because I love me some point n click!