114 réponses à ce sujet

[UnstableMongoose]

Fortack wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

But some games are about telling stories, and they'll always need those stories, or there is no game.

Games without gameplay are no games. Story telling in the simplest form is on par with stuff like audio - you can make a (good) game without sound, but cool sfx and/or music can make the overall experience better. There is nothing wrong with adding a story but it should never be the main aim for game developers.

However, when story telling gets interactive - so the choices players make affect how event unfold - it's solid gameplay and has every reason to exist in games. Unfortunately, there are very few games that accomplish anything of the sort.

Your problem here is trying to pidgeonhole what a game is. For some types of games, you'd be absolutely right. One of the problems with the later Megaman X games in comparison to the early ones was an overabundance of sitting around and talking about nothing. But not all games are Megaman X.

The game primarily exists to create some sort of experience for the user. Sometimes, a story is part of that experience. So long as it is presented in a manner in which the story doesn't detract from the gameplay, even if the game temporarily ceases to be fully interactive, you aren't committing a foul.

[Megaton_Hope]

I don't think that I'd agree that a game has to be all story or all gameplay...but too tight a focus on one will certainly diminish the other. And it's easier to exhaust a story when returning to a game than it is a game that's just fun to play.

[naughty99]

Storytelling is not the converse of gameplay, not in any sense.

This Jaffe guy is merely hung up on cut scenes. I don't necessarily blame him for his dislike of the trend toward excessive cut scenes, but it has nothing to do with storytelling.

You can certainly tell a great story without cutting away to cinematics every five seconds. 

Certain kinds of stories may be easier to tell by means of a more rigidly structured game with pre-defined protagonist and lots of cut scenes, while other kinds of stories work well with a more customizable PC and little or no cut scenes at all. 

Modifié par naughty99, 20 avril 2012 - 05:06 .

[bussinrounds]

Game design should be... good gameplay 1st, and narrative coming secondary.

Granted, you can have a gem like Planescape: Torment, where the narrative can actually stand on it's own. But it's very rare with video games and exceptions like that are few and far between.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 20 avril 2012 - 05:04 .

[Conquerthecity]

 Ugh. I literally see no point to video games if they have no story. 

Thankfully, one guy's opinion won't make them go anywhere. Nonsensical or threadbare as they might be even games like MW and L4D have excuse plots. 

Modifié par Mungolian_, 20 avril 2012 - 08:59 .

[TheDrekey]

There is a market for every kind of game. Games with no story and games heavy on narrative.

Obviously, games with no story are a good fun for those idle nights. You keep coming back to them and you play for about 10 minuts and then go away.

Games with story are more of an investment. You feel you will need your next 3 or 4 hours to play it.

Right now I have 2 games I play. LoL, wich has no story what so ever, you just get in there, are flamed for a bit and then log off. And ME 2, which is consuming my every hour.(I know, late bloomer)

I thank Bioware for making the investment in ME's story. I thank them for bringing this medium into the narrative podium.

If you want to play just for fun and skill check, there are plenty of games you can go back to. But if you want to experience something that moves you? You'll need a story.

[Nerdage]

I can only disagree. That sounds to me like a movie producer saying "A good movie should be visual FX first, story second", as though the thing that separates a new medium from the last one (film from books, games from film, etc) is the only one of worth for that medium.

I tend to think that games have some unique advantages when it comes to storytelling that make them a great medium for it, namely; the user generally is the protagonist, and it's a format that makes it very easy for the user to interact directly with the story. Trying to utilize these attributes isn't trying to make games "like movies", it's trying to use more of their inherent potential.

I think Infamous 1 & 2 did it very well as an example of a more gameplay-oriented game (not just an RPG, which would be the obvious choice). Granted, as a story it was never going to set the literary world aflame, but throughout the game you're making choices, interacting with the characters and the story in a way that (I think) you should in games, and couldn't proplerly do anywhere else. And I'd hardly say they 'stunted' the gameplay as a result, it was as fun and original as any game to come out this generation.

I know games will never be the go-to place for stories, for most people who prefer books or film the gameplay is just something that gets in the way, and I do get the appeal of a game that's just fun to play, but effectively telling the entire industry to stop "wasting money" on strong narrative I can't agree with at all (not that I consider Call of Duty or Gear of War 3 particularly "strong narratives", I might even agree that CoD could do with cutting down spending on SP cinematics for what they're actaully worth to the game).


Well I was curious so I watched the DICE presentation. Still the only thing I agree with is that games shouldn't be made to be like movies.

Modifié par nerdage, 20 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[naughty99]

Story does not equal cut scenes.

Modifié par naughty99, 20 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[Nerdage]

Cutscenes are surely part of story though. It's hard to imagine how you could get a strongly authored story across without some cutscenes, short of locking the player character in a room under the player's control while an NPC talks at them (which, in my experience, doesn't work).

If a game relied solely on cutscenes for all its storytelling and cinematics I wouldn't like it (that's what I'd consider making a game like a movie), but a game with its own story to tell will almost certainly have cutscenes.

[naughty99]

nerdage wrote...

Cutscenes are surely part of story though. It's hard to imagine how you could get a strongly authored story across without some cutscenes, short of locking the player character in a room under the player's control while an NPC talks at them (which, in my experience, doesn't work).

If a game relied solely on cutscenes for all its storytelling and cinematics I wouldn't like it (that's what I'd consider making a game like a movie), but a game with its own story to tell will almost certainly have cutscenes.

Cut scenes are one tool that can be used to tell a story. But they are not the story.

Cut scenes typically depict characters interacting with one another, or elaborate set piece events that might be challenging to render well in the actual game. 

None of this requires locking down the player with cut scenes. If I'm playing a character who is talking or interacting with some NPC, let me be free to interrupt them, walk away, even attack them while they are talking. There is not any real need to lock the player down and make him passive every time he talks to an NPC.

As for elaborate set pieces, personally I can enjoy an epic cinematic event as much as the next person, but I would enjoy participating in such an event in an active way much, much more than sitting around passively, waiting for the cut scene to be over.

Also, keep in mind, story is not only expressed through dialogue with NPCs. A blood-stained letter clutched in the cold, dead hands of an NPC companion the player cares about, for example, could be an emotional turning point in a major quest line, without any dialogue. Or perhaps the player becomes involved in some Machiavellian intrigue at court after discovering secret correspondence, etc.

[RedArmyShogun]

naughty99 wrote...

Story does not equal cut scenes.

Aye,

But in the name of the Emperor, stop with the huge movie ones.

Several games are guilty of this in modern times. VA work isn't that pricey, but coding in CGI quality mini movies is.


Not that I mind CS's. Just its like with ME3 shep talked way too much and not the player.

[Fortack]

TheDrekey wrote...

Obviously, games with no story are a good fun for those idle nights. You keep coming back to them and you play for about 10 minuts and then go away.

Games with story are more of an investment. You feel you will need your next 3 or 4 hours to play it.

That's subjective. The question is what is a "story". For example, I am a huge fan of the Civilization and Total War series. Those games do not have a story (narrative), but you're definitely making up your own of the faction you're playing - and you can play those games for a very long time too (not just 10 minutes).

IMO the point Jaffe is making is about being a participant or a spectator only. The former is what gaming is all about, the latter is what other media (movies, books, music) are for. It would be a bad thing when games follow the Hollywood route where special effects are king. I wouldn't want that although obviously good special effects (and a good story in games) are not a bad thing at all - yet not nearly enough to make things great.

[naughty99]

wiggles89 wrote...

TheDrekey wrote...
Obviously, games with no story are a good fun for those idle nights. You keep coming back to them and you play for about 10 minuts and then go away.

The countless hours people spend playing a game like TF2 belies this statement.

What? TF2 has a very deep story 

[TheDrekey]

Fortack wrote...

TheDrekey wrote...

Obviously, games with no story are a good fun for those idle nights. You keep coming back to them and you play for about 10 minuts and then go away.

Games with story are more of an investment. You feel you will need your next 3 or 4 hours to play it.

That's subjective. The question is what is a "story". For example, I am a huge fan of the Civilization and Total War series. Those games do not have a story (narrative), but you're definitely making up your own of the faction you're playing - and you can play those games for a very long time too (not just 10 minutes).

I couldn't agree more. Narrative is very diferente from story telling in games. A game like Civ or even Football Manager is not without narrative, cause we are making a story as it plays.
But Jeff actually says that the only narrative in any game should be player subjective narrative. Like in his Skyrim example. 

I don't feel moved nor in awe with my narrative in Civilization. I don't cry if the Ethiopians are destroied nor do I relinquish the possibility of marrying the very naive daugther of the Ota Emperor in Shogun. That is because games which give me the narrative, only go so far, because deepning the characters, stories or inter-relations are not their goal. And it shouldn't be.

I can make a narrative out of tetris, that's ok, but tetris it self is not telling me any story. I'm not, in any way, invited into using tetris as a narrative conveing medium. I'm not saying that tetris is a lesser game for it, I'm just trying to point out the diference between story driven games, and non-story driven games. 

Narrative its an amazing and very complex thing in video-games, and this is hardly the perfect place to discuss it.

Jeff said "We need to stop telling stories with our games". If that is the actual quote, then he is saying that stories have no place in gaming, only subjective narrative. 

I for one, disagree. There is a place for all games.

What if I said, "We need to stop playing music with our movies"

That is an ok remark, but what about musicals? What about heavy music supported movies. There is nothing wrong with music in movies, as there is nothing wrong in using Video Games to tell a story.



The thread seams to have diverged into a diferente topic, is telling a story a passive or and active parte of gaming?
It depends on how well the game is made IMO.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO FINDS IT HILARIOUS THAT DAVID JAFFE, OF ALL PEOPLE, IS TALKING ABOUT STUNTED GAMEPLAY? DOESN'T HE HAVE A QTE SEQUENCE TO DESIGN OR SOMETHING?

[philiposophy]

TheDrekey wrote...

Obviously, games with no story are a good fun for those idle nights. You keep coming back to them and you play for about 10 minuts and then go away.

Games with story are more of an investment. You feel you will need your next 3 or 4 hours to play it.

This certainly isn't the case with Total War games, like Shogun 2. They have no story, unless you count a historical setting and goal (which I don't). Campaigns can last a long time, and there are multiple game modes, each with considerable investment. Shogun 2's avatar multiplayer (which has two versions now, with the expansion of Fall of the Samurai) has the entire grand campaign map for you to conquer through multiplayer battles.

[TheDrekey]

wiggles89 wrote...

TheDrekey wrote...
Obviously, games with no story are a good fun for those idle nights. You keep coming back to them and you play for about 10 minuts and then go away.

The countless hours people spend playing a game like TF2 belies this statement.

I said 10 minutes as an humurous example. By no means as a concrete timespan. I've spent days playing LoL, Civilization or even CS in the old days. 

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

philiposophy wrote...

TheDrekey wrote...

Obviously, games with no story are a good fun for those idle nights. You keep coming back to them and you play for about 10 minuts and then go away.

Games with story are more of an investment. You feel you will need your next 3 or 4 hours to play it.

This certainly isn't the case with Total War games, like Shogun 2. They have no story, unless you count a historical setting and goal (which I don't). Campaigns can last a long time, and there are multiple game modes, each with considerable investment. Shogun 2's avatar multiplayer (which has two versions now, with the expansion of Fall of the Samurai) has the entire grand campaign map for you to conquer through multiplayer battles.

ALL THERE IS STUFF LOOSELY IN THAT GENRE (LIKE CRUSADER KINGS II, OR SOME RTW MODS) THAT IS DEEP ENOUGH AS A HISTORY SIM TO CREATE EMERGENT STORYTELLING.