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Please take more advice from someone who works in the film industry (Updated 4/20/12).


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#1
Taboo

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 I've created this topic in response to the communities reactions to the fake information coming out of Reddit and to summarize what an extended cut is and what it means for Mass Effect. Please remember that this is my job and a both the film and game development communities share similarities.

Why you need to pay attention to what Mr. Gamble says:

Mr. Gamble has completely blown me away by simply talking to us in some capacity and we should feel lucky that we're getting anything at all. Most producers are absolutely awful people. They care little about the audience and are only in to make a product that will make money and really don't care about who gets burned in their warpath. I have worked with people like this and they are some of the most unpleasent people I've ever encountered. Mr. Gamble has convinced me he is not like this simply by talking to the community.

Secondly Mr. Gamble confirmed yesterday my own suspicions on where the Extended Cut is now. It is still in pre-production. Bioware is still writing scripts, dialouge and are drawing storyboards. They have not commited to doing anything yet and are still gathering constructive feedback. Under no circumstances should you believe anything that comes from 4Chan or Reddit or any other media site as they are well aware of the situation on the BSN and will take every chance they can to troll you. The only people you should be paying attention to are Bioware employees.

Performing feats of Alchemy: Turning turds in gold.

I'd like to take some time to remind people what an extended cut means and how it will affect Mass Effect 3. An extended cut can:

Add footage
Restore plot points
Remove plot points and replace them with others (!)

This additions can directly make an impact on what a narrative does and how it is expressed. I believe that the current narrative is inappropriate because it does not reflect on past descisions and choices, nor do I find it particularly palatable.

You can fix quite a lot by mixing things around and by playing with the narrative a bit. Let me know if you want examples of things that have benefitted from editing and additional footage.

This beer tastes awful!: Bioware's mistake of serving you "arty" beer.

I like art films a great deal, unfortunatley a great majority of people do not, and I think has caused a great deal of anger on the forums. BSN users are not dumb but they are unfamiliar with what I would consider to be true "artistic" endeavors and much like beer your first taste is particularly unpleasent. It doesn't taste good, I understand and you don't have to partake in it if you don't want to. If you do continue to "drink" it will eventually taste better even if the experience is a bad one. I think this is where Bioware dropped the ball big time and where they need to step up to plate in this extended cut. They need to make it more palatable to a mainstream audience.

Stop giving people your dirty laundry! We've already got our fingers in everyone's pies!

One great piece of advice I can give you is you must, must stop giving the media your dirty laundry (see link in title for explanation). The media loves nothing more than latching on to the worst aspects of anything and will use it to gather hits and spread discord. I myself am very frustrated by the media's reaction but also by some of the communties actions. When you act like an amourous baboon everytime you don't get your way it looks particularly bad on the community as a whole. This is something I deal with in the film community all the time. I myself have had to go into damage control over certain film's reception and believe me it's not fun. Lastly be thankful that Bioware is aware that many people are willing to give active mature feedback and are listening at all. We've already rustled enough jimmies, there is no need to rustle more.


New Section Outline Below 4/20/12
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Minimilism

The final moments of Mass Effect 3's narrative boil down to what I can best describe as minimilist in nature. This is an art film type of storytelling, one that is used to cause speculation for everybody.

How is this achieved? The director cuts out key pieces of information An example of a film director who employed minimilism is Robert Bresson. His films are condensed into the barest of all storytelling elements. You quite literally have to interpret what you're seeing from a distinct sound or even as something innocuous as a shot of someone's hand. Key ideas are left out and are left up to interpretation of the audience. This is an incresingly popular type of narrative in the Eastern world and is being employed by such illuminaries as Tsai-Ming Liang and Michael Haneke.

What I saw in the Mass Effect 3 ending was a series of images essentially broken down in an incomprehensible montage. Key concepts were left out. Why? Bad writing seems to be the obvious answer but it really looks like something I see in something like The Devil, Probably or Lancelot du Lac (both are later period Bresson films).

A list of films you check out to further conceptulization of what I'm trying to get at.

[/b][/i]
[i][b]Minimilist Narratives:

The collected works of Robert Bresson (Most readily available in the UK)
The collected works of Yasujiro Ozu
The collected works of Theodoros Angelopoulos (Most readily available in the UK)
The collected works of Andrei Tarkovsky
The collected directorial works of John Cassavetes
The collected works of Tsai-Ming Liang
The collected works of Hou-Hsao Hsien
The collected works of Michael Haneke (Not for the faint of heart)
The collected works of Apitchatpong Weerasthakul
The collected works of Michaelangelo Antonioni
The collected works of Bruno Dumont (Not for the faint of heart)
The collected works of Claire Denis
Several works by Ingmar Bergman (The Silence, Winter Light, Wild Strawberries)


I'll make more updates later especially on how poorly done the symbolism is done in the ending. :sick:

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 avril 2012 - 06:26 .


#2
MattFini

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Well said. I agree with this.

Still a bit skeptical of an extended cut, but I'm cautiously hopeful.

#3
Clayless

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I agree OP, people should just wait for the DLC, rather than continue to be destructive or bring up the same points a million times. The extended cut could add so much to the endings, you'll see things play out after your Crucible choice that wont appear in others.

Inb4:

Artistic integrity
Lots of speculation

#4
Noblewolf

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with the crappy films being made lately BW should do the total opposite of what you say.

#5
archangelg99

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Very interesting read. What are your thoughts regarding the trust (or rather, a lack thereof) between Mr. Gamble and some fans/consumers? Not too many people here want to pay attention to the word of a man who is seen as a liar.

Modifié par archangelg99, 19 avril 2012 - 04:53 .


#6
sAxMoNkI

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I agree OP, but taking everything with a pinch of salt until some concrete details come out.

#7
STEEEEVE

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Taboo-XX wrote...


This beer tastes awful!: Bioware's mistake of serving you "arty" beer.

I like art films a great deal, unfortunatley a great majority of people do not, and I think has caused a great deal of anger on the forums. BSN users are not dumb but they are unfamiliar with what I would consider to be true "artistic" endeavors and much like beer your first taste is particularly unpleasent. It doesn't taste good, I understand and you don't have to partake in it if you don't want to. If you do continue to "drink" it will eventually taste better even if the experience is a bad one. I think this is where Bioware dropped the ball big time and where they need to step up to plate in this extended cut. They need to make it more palatable to a mainstream audience.


I agree with everything you said except this.  Here it seems to me that you are implying that liking the ending or not is simply a matter of taste, with which i disagree.  As someone who works in the film industry, hopefully you can appreciate the frequently used comparison that the Mass Effect 3 ending is like if you slapped the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey onto the final act of Return of the Jedi.  It has nothing to do with the fact that some users on the board may not be familiar with artistic films, and has everything to do with the fact that nearly every theme in the game was either disregarded or contradicted in the ending.

#8
Carlthestrange

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I never trusted Reddit or 4chan anyway. They attract the worst kind of people.

#9
hopeisreal

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Noblewolf wrote...

with the crappy films being made lately BW should do the total opposite of what you say.


Ha. You beat me to it.

#10
hopeisreal

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Sorry Original Poster...but I humbly disagree.

Some unfortunate people were made to pay full price for an unfinished product. THAT is wrong.

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Also, I believe that Bioware did say that they would ADD to the ending and not change it. Which I TOTALLY agree with and accept. That is the ending they put out and we have to deal with it.

But I think people are being a little over-emotional...but call me messed up...I find the personal insults and the passion behind them VERY ENTERTAINING.

#11
SimonTheFrog

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"Why you need to pay attention to what Mr. Gamble says:"

Sorry, but Mr. Gamble is the one who said that we OF COURSE don't need to play multiplayer to get the needed EMS.

What he says doesn't matter. That's the long and the short.

#12
frypan

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Nice post OP. Not sureabout the arty motive being relevant, or if arty was actually the intention behind the end. BW must know they have a large mainstream audience, as is evident from other design decisions in the game. They probably just misjudged the reaction to what was intended to wrap things up fast.

They also made two other games that werent overly arty, even if they did raise clever themes.

But enjoyed your thoughts, they give a bit more hope.

#13
hopeisreal

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They wanted to cash in big time because Mass Effect was a huge franchise....based off the fans

#14
SimonTheFrog

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Oh and yeah:

the end is not arty. It is just poorly written.
I wouldn't mind arty, even if it doesn't fit the rest of the trilogy at all. This is kinda insulting to suggest that people dismiss this ending because it is too arty. That is not the problem.
The problem is, that is is bad.

And as long as they don't change that there is really not much to add to improve the situation. And if the start to leave what's in there but try to retcon it with the following cutscene... can you imagine the mess that would result in that?

No no no... the EC is a bad idea from the beginning.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 19 avril 2012 - 05:15 .


#15
Taboo

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 In reference to Mr. Gamble and fan/consumer trust

I was absolutely shocked when Mr. Gamble responded to a topic I created simply because in no way shape or form do you send a producer to do PR statements. You would send someone like Mr. Priestley or Ms. Merizan to do this. Producers are incredibly unpleasent people where I come from. Simply talking to us makes me believe tha Mr. Gamble legitmately cares.

In reference to Art/Beer/Audience

It happens. Believe me. I have seen far worse things go down where I work. People make mistakes like this sometimes and unfortunately it comes back to bite you in the backside if you market it to the wrong audience. A recent "good" example of this was Drive. It's really not an action film but was marketed as such simply because the producers couldn't sell it as an art film which is what it really is. Drive is very popular in my community, but not so much in the mainstream one. A woman actually filed a lawsuit against it because it was Fast Five and no, I'm not joking.

The one thing that really punched me below the belt was Mr. Gamble's statement about them not being aware that the audience wanted closure. This tells me that they intended the game to end like it does.

#16
eddieoctane

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The starchild isn't going anywhere and the relays aren't coming back. Even though, technically an "extended cut" could do away with those two issues, they are confirmed as staying. Starchild is a character who is introduced in the final moment of the game to be presented as the new primary antagonist. It's terrible writing by the basic conventions of a narrative. It's empirically bad art, so don;t use the "art defense". You sound like Johnny Cochran going on about a wookie.

And the destruction of the relays serves zero purpose. Technologically, it would be much more feasible to try to rebuild the relays than to try to develop new FTL tech from the ground up. There's a saying in engineering "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The relays work. The Protheans figured out how to build them. It would be the first thing on any politician's list. So the "effect" the Reapers had by leaving the relays for us is permanent. It's not going away. What was seen cannot be unseen. So there is no long term benefit of getting rid of Reaper tech (other than the actual Reapers) and in the short term we are in a galactic dark age.

#17
NM_Che56

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Now I have that damn song stuck in my head.

#18
rma2110

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I happen to like artsy movies, but that kind of artsy ending doesn't belong in Mass Effect. It just doesn't fit. It'd be like having aliens suddenly fly in and abduct everyone at the end of Dragon Age. It's just a very sudden and jarring shift.

I'm hoping for the best, but I don't see how BioWare can remove plot points. They already said that they aren't changing anything. I wish I could magic away the Catslyst.

#19
Taboo

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eddieoctane wrote...

And the destruction of the relays serves zero purpose. Technologically, it would be much more feasible to try to rebuild the relays than to try to develop new FTL tech from the ground up. There's a saying in engineering "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The relays work. The Protheans figured out how to build them. It would be the first thing on any politician's list. So the "effect" the Reapers had by leaving the relays for us is permanent. It's not going away. What was seen cannot be unseen. So there is no long term benefit of getting rid of Reaper tech (other than the actual Reapers) and in the short term we are in a galactic dark age.


I know it's hard to swallow but they have already started retconning. Mr. Gamble confirmed that the relays are disabled on Twitter. Oh and the citadel isn't going to be destroyed. The problem now is that the ending was so poor that people have picked it apart and Bioware has quite a task ahead of them if they are going to fix it.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 avril 2012 - 05:27 .


#20
ArchDuck

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Well said.
The beer analogy made me chuckle as I can't drink beer or wine. My body finds it hideous and will give me shudders for ever sip and a headache very quickly. It felt about right for the Mass Effect 3 ending. XD

#21
SimonTheFrog

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The sad thing is that the only reason why the won't lose the kid is because that would mean they admit it was a bad call.

It's just hurt feelings, basically.

Please, BioWare, you're better than this!!

#22
Taboo

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They are retconning. Michael Gamble has already confirmed this on Twitter. You can look it up if you want.

#23
frypan

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I think Taboo is saying the arty decision was shoved in with the thought it would work, something confirmed by Mike Gambles misunderstanding of folks reaction.Poorly thought out arty, but an attempt nonetheless.

I like some art stuff but in playing these games I was wearing a "mainstream " hat and wanted something bettersuited to the triumphal endings of the first two games. Hopefully BW has now realised this, with so many well thought out reactions against the end they cant claim we are all just a bit dim and not arty enough.

We just left the berets and cigarette holders behind for this game...

#24
NM_Che56

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Taboo-XX wrote...

The one thing that really punched me below the belt was Mr. Gamble's statement about them not being aware that the audience wanted closure. This tells me that they intended the game to end like it does.



Well call this a left hook from right field:

http://www.oxmonline...ending?page=0,1

 “They beat the game, and they’re left with an emotional feeling of closure for that story,” Hudson says. “But they also know that there are other things out there. The Illusive Man is still out there, and Cerberus and the Reapers.”


 

#25
Beerfish

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Taboo-XX wrote...

They are retconning. Michael Gamble has already confirmed this on Twitter. You can look it up if you want.


Excellent news, some of the best news I've heard actually.