197 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

I should remind people that you do have every right to ask why something is the way it is. You shouldn't always expect an answer though.

[daecath]

Taboo-XX wrote...
This beer tastes awful!: Bioware's mistake of serving you "arty" beer.

I like art films a great deal, unfortunatley a great majority of people do not, and I think has caused a great deal of anger on the forums. BSN users are not dumb but they are unfamiliar with what I would consider to be true "artistic" endeavors and much like beer your first taste is particularly unpleasent. It doesn't taste good, I understand and you don't have to partake in it if you don't want to. If you do continue to "drink" it will eventually taste better even if the experience is a bad one. I think this is where Bioware dropped the ball big time and where they need to step up to plate in this extended cut. They need to make it more palatable to a mainstream audience.

You cannot call that ending art. Calling that ending art is an insult to art everywhere. This isn't about making it "palatable to a mainstream audience". It's about making it make sense and conform to the rules of good storytelling. They stole an ending to a game that had nothing to do with this one, and shoved it in even though the themes and plot of that story didn't make sense. You cannot take the ending of Romeo and Juliet, slap it into Moby Dick, and call it art. On their own, they work great. Together, they are a convoluted mess because they were never intended to go together.

[Taboo]

Has anyone here seen Andrzej Żuławski's Possession, with Isabelle Adjani and Sam Neill? I hope someone has.

Anyway that's a perfect example of what we have here. Its makes concessions in favor of coherence because that's what Żuławski wanted. No it doesn't make sense but it's still art.

It's a narrative technique, albeit one that most people are unfamiliar with.

[Mylia Stenetch]

dkear1 wrote...
As for Hudson coming under fire right now.  Of course he would and he would DESERVE IT!!!  He broke a wall of text of promises.  The time for him to have duck tape on his mouth was the last two years NOT now!  Now he needs to be in here explaining why he couldn't deliver on what he promised.

It only makes them look more out of touch and uncaring when they keep up the silent treatment.  Active involvement on their part could have diffused the rage and prevented all of the ending fallout.  Fans here really do "want" to like the game.  It seems that most on this forum and other forums I spend time on really like 99% of the game or at least don't dispise it like the ending.  

So they blew the ending and then blew any possiblilty of calming folks down by staying silent.  That is two strikes for those who are keeping track.  I don't see much hope with what has been said regarding the EC so it is looking like a strikeout is coming.  Darn shame as this series is the best that I have ever played....until that ending.

I have seen this before with (as I said mainy times on this) City of Heroes when they released the Archietch Edition. The lead dev came out and said a lot of things that would be added in and the PVP fix. Well a lot of the backfired, PvPer's hated the new system, also some of the promises did not make it to release date. People went balistic, calling for people to get fired, asking for refunds and saying they would never pay or play the game again. (Sounds familiar I know).

Well the lead dev came out with an letter stating the future of the game and why some of the things needed to be cut, and how they decided to do stuff. Well in under and hour there were several hundred pages as an all out war come out of it. People on both sides flamming to the end and more vitrol to the Devs. Which soon afterwards turned in Dev silence for the foresable future at that time.

So to think that Casey Hudson coming out and talking about it on the forums would quell the anger is a small blip on hope. Mainly cause you post where you are very much on the offensive on what he said.

[Taboo]

Mr. Hudson would not dare to come on the forums and say anything. People are being so venomous it remarkable that Bioware is still saying something in some capacity. It absolutely boggles my mind why people think Bioware is intentionally ignoring them when they actively call them out on the forums and make threats. It's a particularly shocking development isn't it?

Anyway I'll make some additions later seeing as I ever seem to do is confuse people.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 avril 2012 - 09:09 .

[jds1bio]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Has anyone here seen Andrzej Żuławski's Possession, with Isabelle Adjani and Sam Neill? I hope someone has.

Anyway that's a perfect example of what we have here. Its makes concessions in favor of coherence because that's what Żuławski wanted. No it doesn't make sense but it's still art.

It's a narrative technique, albeit one that most people are unfamiliar with.

What is with this nose-in-the-air attitude?  Gamers are VERY familiar with "concessions in favor of coherence" as a narrative technique, and as a gameplay one also. 

Why did ME2's collector soldiers resemble more human physiology?  To make animating in combat easier, a concession you can read about in the ME universe art book.

Look at any game that has become more "shooter-y" or "soldier-like" as time as gone on, like Crysis 2's aliens, or ME3.  Look at the handling of the ME1 Rachni decision in ME3.  The game industry is rife with concessions being made in favor of coherence.

[JackofStaves]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Has anyone here seen Andrzej Żuławski's Possession, with Isabelle Adjani and Sam Neill? I hope someone has.

Anyway that's a perfect example of what we have here. Its makes concessions in favor of coherence because that's what Żuławski wanted. No it doesn't make sense but it's still art.

It's a narrative technique, albeit one that most people are unfamiliar with.

It's a narrative technique that was consistent from start to finish in that film.  It's not a perfect example as the theme/plot didn't suddently change in the last ten minutes of the film.  That's the major issue; if the Powers That Be had started ME1's plot and theme aimed more towards that artistic vision concept, and continued it through 2 and 3, there would be no outcry.  It would have been internally consistent the established storylines.  This was not so, unfortunately.  And this is particularly important in an RPG game where everything (game mechanics, characterization, marketing, etc.) was outlined in terms of player engagement and decision-making driving the story.  

It's their IP, sure, but changing that consistent vision at the end of a multi-year, "third act" game of extraordinary popularity and visibility comes with no small peril....

[Taboo]

I misspoke about Possession in the above film what I MEANT to say was that it makes concessions in favor of artistic vision. The film literally makes a one eighty in the second half of the film. I won't go into detail but you quite literally have a kitchen sink drama in the first half and a surreal nightmare in the second half. There is literally an alien growing out of someone's apartment wall. At least I think it was supposed to be an alien. SOMETHING is in the bathroom.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 avril 2012 - 09:16 .

[Laurencio]

Master Che wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The one thing that really punched me below the belt was Mr. Gamble's statement about them not being aware that the audience wanted closure. This tells me that they intended the game to end like it does.

Well call this a left hook from right field:

http://www.oxmonline...ending?page=0,1

 “They beat the game, and they’re left with an emotional feeling of closure for that story,” Hudson says. “But they also know that there are other things out there. The Illusive Man is still out there, and Cerberus and the Reapers.”


 

Emotional wise there is closure, just not fact wise and information wise. It does "end", there's no question about that, but the way it ends doesn't give enough closer to some people. Personally I have plenty of closure, but probably because I tend to create my own narrative for virtually anything I watch/play/read. I tend to overlook certain aspects of storytelling and fill in the blanks and fix the confusion with my own imagination.

But yeah, there is definitely an "ending" there, but the ending might suffer from a lack of information and a certain influx of new information and a very sharp change of theme. I would describe it as going from "this is a straightforward pretty normal Science Fiction story" to "Wait, what just happened? Where did he come from? Did I change the channel or something?" in a couple of seconds.

[dkear1]

@ Taboo-XX and Mylia:
Perhaps they (fans) would have flamed them (Hudson and Gamble) and as I stated they DO deserve it as they DID make a TON of promises that they didn't keep. The fact that statements issued by bioware ignore the issues that folks have raised is a good indicator that they "are NOT listening" to anything but the sound of their own voices which is why they are in the state that they are in.

As to your comparison on COH - if someone promises fixes and then reinvents the wheel....why are they shocked at it backfiring. Sounds like they (the devs) never had a clue what the problem was in the first place so it should not have surprised anyone when they blew it a second time.

This isn't the same thing with bioware AT ALL! They made good endings to 2 previous games and have demonstrated excellent story telling ability in all three games (Mordin and Legion in ME3 are particularly standouts in this regard) - and that is why the ending is so horrible. Everyone "knows" that bioware is capable of doing it right! The question is......Why didn't they?

[Taboo]

 The greatest crime they commited was assuming that people didn't want closure. This is contradictory to western art, which has a very barrel down approach. THIS is what people are not used to and what I failed to explain in the original post. I'll address the issue in detail later.

[TNT1991]

STEEEEVE wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


This beer tastes awful!: Bioware's mistake of serving you "arty" beer.

I like art films a great deal, unfortunatley a great majority of people do not, and I think has caused a great deal of anger on the forums. BSN users are not dumb but they are unfamiliar with what I would consider to be true "artistic" endeavors and much like beer your first taste is particularly unpleasent. It doesn't taste good, I understand and you don't have to partake in it if you don't want to. If you do continue to "drink" it will eventually taste better even if the experience is a bad one. I think this is where Bioware dropped the ball big time and where they need to step up to plate in this extended cut. They need to make it more palatable to a mainstream audience.

I agree with everything you said except this.  Here it seems to me that you are implying that liking the ending or not is simply a matter of taste, with which i disagree.  As someone who works in the film industry, hopefully you can appreciate the frequently used comparison that the Mass Effect 3 ending is like if you slapped the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey onto the final act of Return of the Jedi.  It has nothing to do with the fact that some users on the board may not be familiar with artistic films, and has everything to do with the fact that nearly every theme in the game was either disregarded or contradicted in the ending.

 

QFT

[Taboo]

I can appreciate it and it IS something that is implemented in films. Sometimes you do get a 2001-esque ending whether you like it or not.

[Wulfram]

The ending isn't arty, it's bad. And even if it was arty and not bad, it would still be out of place at the end of a series that really isn't all that arty. Mass Effect is sometimes serious, interesting and thought provoking, but it's not arty.

edit: and also, video games aren't films and shouldn't end like them.  The amount of time invested by the audience is far greater, and the number, complexity and importance of side plots is far more.  Actually, they're probably better compared to TV series than movies.

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 avril 2012 - 09:27 .

[Taboo]

Wulfram wrote...

The ending isn't arty, it's bad. And even if it was arty and not bad, it would still be out of place at the end of a series that really isn't all that arty. Mass Effect is sometimes serious, interesting and thought provoking, but it's not arty.

Arty and bad writing go hand and hand in the film industry. When someone doesn't know what they're doing they can fumble and make it into an incomprehensible mess. I can guarantee you that there are people here who would accuse Andrei Tarkovsky of bad writing simply because his shot length is long and his films have little dialouge. It's the way the narrative IS.

[Mylia Stenetch]

dkear1 wrote...

@ Taboo-XX and Mylia:
Perhaps they (fans) would have flamed them (Hudson and Gamble) and as I stated they DO deserve it as they DID make a TON of promises that they didn't keep. The fact that statements issued by bioware ignore the issues that folks have raised is a good indicator that they "are NOT listening" to anything but the sound of their own voices which is why they are in the state that they are in.

This is another reason why they would not come here cause most people would say they are flat-out lying. How do we know there are not listening are you in the board room in Bioware? Did they listen to everyone? Possibly, but what they take out of it and make is different. 

As to your comparison on COH - if someone promises fixes and then reinvents the wheel....why are they shocked at it backfiring. Sounds like they (the devs) never had a clue what the problem was in the first place so it should not have surprised anyone when they blew it a second time.

This isn't the same thing with bioware AT ALL! They made good endings to 2 previous games and have demonstrated excellent story telling ability in all three games (Mordin and Legion in ME3 are particularly standouts in this regard) - and that is why the ending is so horrible. Everyone "knows" that bioware is capable of doing it right! The question is......Why didn't they?

They are very capable people at CoH. They tried to fix things working with the PvPers they tried the best concession to make it palatable, it blew back at them cause people did not like the change and they are very vocal.

Also with that expansion being technically #3 and their 14 free update people that stayed with it had a very high standard on what to bring. People truly enjoy the story in the game since there is tonnes of lore in it. Our expectations where high and they promised a lot with the new update (aside from pvp) which did not materialize with what we were hoping/said. It backfired and when they try to do damage control it backfired again. 

This has a lot to do with what we are seeing now in ME3. The high standard we have did not come true, not matter what they do we are going to analyze and pick apart everything till it means something else they did not intend.

[Ansible]

Taboo-XX wrote...

This beer tastes awful!: Bioware's mistake of serving you "arty" beer.

I like art films a great deal, unfortunatley a great majority of people do not, and I think has caused a great deal of anger on the forums. BSN users are not dumb but they are unfamiliar with what I would consider to be true "artistic" endeavors and much like beer your first taste is particularly unpleasent. It doesn't taste good, I understand and you don't have to partake in it if you don't want to. If you do continue to "drink" it will eventually taste better even if the experience is a bad one. I think this is where Bioware dropped the ball big time and where they need to step up to plate in this extended cut. They need to make it more palatable to a mainstream audience.

Um... I think a lot of the audience have experienced and continue to experience the more "artistic" stories and artforms you are referring to. 

If anything, the people with a better taste in films and books and other media are the ones that play Mass Effect. Granted this sometimes gives them a "FPS multiplayer sucks and I am above it. CoD sux" type attitude.

A lot of people here love movies, films, books, games, and some even make them.

I have experienced that particular kind of ending or story.

It still doesn't make ME3 any better. The Escapist is a good film, and it got that kind of "artistic" ending right. I liked it, as well as a lot of other people.

The problem is, ME3 just didn't do it right at all. And you know what? I don't think they should've tried. A story like that of ME doesn't requie that type of ending, and would be better off without it, IMO.

Modifié par Ansible, 19 avril 2012 - 09:33 .

[Taboo]

People pick apart things when they have no closure, which is exactly what has happened here. The endings would not have been as poorly received as they have had they been more coherent.

[dkear1]

Taboo-XX wrote...

People pick apart things when they have no closure, which is exactly what has happened here. The endings would not have been as poorly received as they have had they been more coherent.

I hate to kick the dead horse here but "closure" is just one of the many broken promises that Hudson and Gamble made.  Then to claim to be shocked that people wanted something that they emphatically promised......

Modifié par dkear1, 19 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[Laurencio]

Taboo-XX wrote...

People pick apart things when they have no closure, which is exactly what has happened here. The endings would not have been as poorly received as they have had they been more coherent.

Actually, I think you will find if the original two games had been on a similar note, or hinted towards a similar "feel". That they both had similar elements in them. It wouldn't have been so unexpected and poorly recieved. The problem isn't that they wanted to go from clear straightforward science fiction blended with powerful symbolism to something reminisscent of abstract symbolism, although that was a poor choice to make within 5 minutes of the "end" and especially for the "crowning moment" of the series, but rather that it came about so damn unexpectedly.

None of the other two games, nor anything in the third game's 30+ preceding gameplay even hinted that something like this was coming. It was completely out of the blue for most people.

Modifié par Laurencio, 19 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[Taboo]

dkear1 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

People pick apart things when they have no closure, which is exactly what has happened here. The endings would not have been as poorly received as they have had they been more coherent.

I hate to kick the dead horse here but "closure" is just one of the many broken promises that Hudson and Gamble made.  Then to claim to be shocked that people wanted something that they emphatically promised......

You're quite right. But people have a tendency to foget faults when they are pleased with something. Does it help you to point out that the ending of Return of the Jedi makes no scientific sense? That there are no sounds in space? That the debris raining down from the destroyed Death Star would kill all the Ewoks and that it had been confirmed by a scientist?

Pleasing the audience is an old trick which Bioware unfortunately forgot at the last moment.

[digby69]

good thread

[dkear1]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Pleasing the audience is an old trick which Bioware unfortunately forgot at the last moment.

In a nutshell this is the greatest sin that they made with ME3's ending.  

With your film experience you know first hand through private screenings that films have made the dreaded "ending" mistake before and had to go back to the drawing board for a rework.

Arguing whether this is "correct" or violates "artistic integrity" is irrelevent as EA/Bioware are not some "art" company but rather a gaming company.   Games have to please their audience....or at least enough of them to make the company money anyways. 

The fact that they are even doing an EC is likely the only acknowlegement we the fans will get of a mistake being made on bioware's part.

Modifié par dkear1, 19 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[Taboo]

Indeed. They are selling commercial art and in the end they forgot that and opted for something........less mainstream than it should have been.

I think we'll some interesting things but it what capacity remains to be seen.

[Verhner]

It is about the expectations of the audience.
We expected to take earth back, not blow it up.
We expected at least some kind of victory, all of them feels like "critical mission failure"
We expected our choices to matter.
We expected Harbinger to be the ultimate bad guy
We expected Shepard to tell the starchild to bugger off, i mean really in essence he IS the reapers!
We expected the ending to make sense