197 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Arty and bad writing go hand and hand in the film industry. When someone doesn't know what they're doing they can fumble and make it into an incomprehensible mess. I can guarantee you that there are people here who would accuse Andrei Tarkovsky of bad writing simply because his shot length is long and his films have little dialouge. It's the way the narrative IS.

I've only seen the american remake of Solaris as far as Tarkovsky goes, but if it's any guide then his sort of work would be really bad writing if it was stuck on the end of the Mass Effect series

Tarkovsky's films move at a glacial pace. They are incredibly slow films and can go for ten or so minutes with a single word. It's hard to describe without sounding rude but some of the people here have no idea how dense films can become.

those are my favorite types of films. But I don't get the relevance to Mass Effect.

I'm referring to people associating silent images with bad writing. It's a criticism of Tarkovsky that I hear quite often. The writing is bad as much as it is misplaced in Mass Effect.

[daecath]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Verhner wrote...

It is about the expectations of the audience.
We expected to take earth back, not blow it up.
We expected at least some kind of victory, all of them feels like "critical mission failure"
We expected our choices to matter.
We expected Harbinger to be the ultimate bad guy
We expected Shepard to tell the starchild to bugger off, i mean really in essence he IS the reapers!
We expected the ending to make sense

These are the expectations of a mainstream audience. This is what I was implied in the original post. It's nothing to be ashamed of. This is exactly why the ending came as such a shock.

I will dsicuss "Narrative minimilism" in my next update.

Certainly some of them are. (So what? I like happy endings, happy endings don't have to be "mainstream".) However, expecting an ending where our choices matter is the expectation of the audience that BioWare was talking to when they said "your decisions will matter". And the expectation that the ending will make sense is the reasonable expectation of any audience.

[ahandsomeshark]

Taboo-XX wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Arty and bad writing go hand and hand in the film industry. When someone doesn't know what they're doing they can fumble and make it into an incomprehensible mess. I can guarantee you that there are people here who would accuse Andrei Tarkovsky of bad writing simply because his shot length is long and his films have little dialouge. It's the way the narrative IS.

I've only seen the american remake of Solaris as far as Tarkovsky goes, but if it's any guide then his sort of work would be really bad writing if it was stuck on the end of the Mass Effect series

Tarkovsky's films move at a glacial pace. They are incredibly slow films and can go for ten or so minutes with a single word. It's hard to describe without sounding rude but some of the people here have no idea how dense films can become.

those are my favorite types of films. But I don't get the relevance to Mass Effect.

I'm referring to people associating silent images with bad writing. It's a criticism of Tarkovsky that I hear quite often. The writing is bad as much as it is misplaced in Mass Effect.

Oh I see, but wouldn't drastic uneccessary narrative shifts constitute bad writing even if in a vacuum it could be considered good writing? I mean in conjunction with the ME series as a whole I don't see how the ending isn't bad writing.

[Creston918]

Bill Casey wrote...

I would recommend checking out Duchamp's "The Fountain"...

Is that the one where Hugh Jackman eats the tree bark which is is wife at the end? While travelling to "Shebulba" (sic?)

That might have been the one thing more miserable than ME3's endings, but the two come pretty close.

[Taboo]

daecath wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Verhner wrote...

It is about the expectations of the audience.
We expected to take earth back, not blow it up.
We expected at least some kind of victory, all of them feels like "critical mission failure"
We expected our choices to matter.
We expected Harbinger to be the ultimate bad guy
We expected Shepard to tell the starchild to bugger off, i mean really in essence he IS the reapers!
We expected the ending to make sense

These are the expectations of a mainstream audience. This is what I was implied in the original post. It's nothing to be ashamed of. This is exactly why the ending came as such a shock.

I will dsicuss "Narrative minimilism" in my next update.

Certainly some of them are. (So what? I like happy endings, happy endings don't have to be "mainstream".) However, expecting an ending where our choices matter is the expectation of the audience that BioWare was talking to when they said "your decisions will matter". And the expectation that the ending will make sense is the reasonable expectation of any audience.

This is explicitly what I mean by not catering to a mainstream audience. Westerners like us expect a barrel down approach to things we digest. In places like Europe these things happen ALL the time. You don't get answers in those scenarios.

I expected it too and that's why I'm still here trying to do something contructive with my time.

[Taboo]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Arty and bad writing go hand and hand in the film industry. When someone doesn't know what they're doing they can fumble and make it into an incomprehensible mess. I can guarantee you that there are people here who would accuse Andrei Tarkovsky of bad writing simply because his shot length is long and his films have little dialouge. It's the way the narrative IS.

I've only seen the american remake of Solaris as far as Tarkovsky goes, but if it's any guide then his sort of work would be really bad writing if it was stuck on the end of the Mass Effect series

Tarkovsky's films move at a glacial pace. They are incredibly slow films and can go for ten or so minutes with a single word. It's hard to describe without sounding rude but some of the people here have no idea how dense films can become.

those are my favorite types of films. But I don't get the relevance to Mass Effect.

I'm referring to people associating silent images with bad writing. It's a criticism of Tarkovsky that I hear quite often. The writing is bad as much as it is misplaced in Mass Effect.

Oh I see, but wouldn't drastic uneccessary narrative shifts constitute bad writing even if in a vacuum it could be considered good writing? I mean in conjunction with the ME series as a whole I don't see how the ending isn't bad writing.

It appears that way to me too simply because the implementation was so poorly done. I do expect some explanation for this at some point.

[Creston918]

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

[Taboo]

Creston918 wrote...

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

A recent example of this is Drive with Ryan Gosling. Did you know that the director shot an ending where Driver died but that test audiences didn't like it?

[ahandsomeshark]

Taboo-XX wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Arty and bad writing go hand and hand in the film industry. When someone doesn't know what they're doing they can fumble and make it into an incomprehensible mess. I can guarantee you that there are people here who would accuse Andrei Tarkovsky of bad writing simply because his shot length is long and his films have little dialouge. It's the way the narrative IS.

I've only seen the american remake of Solaris as far as Tarkovsky goes, but if it's any guide then his sort of work would be really bad writing if it was stuck on the end of the Mass Effect series

Tarkovsky's films move at a glacial pace. They are incredibly slow films and can go for ten or so minutes with a single word. It's hard to describe without sounding rude but some of the people here have no idea how dense films can become.

those are my favorite types of films. But I don't get the relevance to Mass Effect.

I'm referring to people associating silent images with bad writing. It's a criticism of Tarkovsky that I hear quite often. The writing is bad as much as it is misplaced in Mass Effect.

Oh I see, but wouldn't drastic uneccessary narrative shifts constitute bad writing even if in a vacuum it could be considered good writing? I mean in conjunction with the ME series as a whole I don't see how the ending isn't bad writing.

It appears that way to me too simply because the implementation was so poorly done. I do expect some explanation for this at some point.

you mean an explanation for why it was so poorly implemented? It seems like the closest we'll get to an answer is the info in the final hours app stating they ran out of time.

[JackofStaves]

I think it boils down to two things, really;

1. Complex, "artsy" vision is great for film, but a poor concept in video games that are intended by the developer to appeal to a widely to a mainstream audience. The two ideas are mutually exclusive.

2. Someone on either Bioware's dev team or management had an attack of the clevers, without fully thinking through the consequences. They really should have played a game of "what if", or what historians call counterfactual thinking. "What happens if the ending isn't clear enough, or expectations (right, wrong, or indifferent) aren't met?"

[Taboo]

JackofStaves wrote...

I think it boils down to two things, really;

1. Complex, "artsy" vision is great for film, but a poor concept in video games that are intended by the developer to appeal to a widely to a mainstream audience. The two ideas are mutually exclusive.

2. Someone on either Bioware's dev team or management had an attack of the clevers, without fully thinking through the consequences. They really should have played a game of "what if", or what historians call counterfactual thinking. "What happens if the ending isn't clear enough, or expectations (right, wrong, or indifferent) aren't met?"

Pretty much. The great thing is that can rectify it in some capacity. The ending is very deep and even feel it's rather immature at times simply because it so undermines the hardcore audience.

[ahandsomeshark]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

A recent example of this is Drive with Ryan Gosling. Did you know that the director shot an ending where Driver died but that test audiences didn't like it?

Blade Runner also has like 400 editions. I've seen it twice and still can't figure out which edition I have.

[Taboo]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

you mean an explanation for why it was so poorly implemented? It seems like the closest we'll get to an answer is the info in the final hours app stating they ran out of time.

Yes, unfortunately I wouldn't expect any answers soon.

[ahandsomeshark]

in addition wouldn't movies that have later added sequels be considered changed endings? not ones that were planned but sequels where plot points were retconned in to make them work) that happens all the time.

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 19 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[Taboo]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

A recent example of this is Drive with Ryan Gosling. Did you know that the director shot an ending where Driver died but that test audiences didn't like it?

Blade Runner also has like 400 editions. I've seen it twice and still can't figure out which edition I have.

I own five. I know of at least seven.

[Creston918]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Verhner wrote...

It is about the expectations of the audience.
We expected to take earth back, not blow it up.
We expected at least some kind of victory, all of them feels like "critical mission failure"
We expected our choices to matter.
We expected Harbinger to be the ultimate bad guy
We expected Shepard to tell the starchild to bugger off, i mean really in essence he IS the reapers!
We expected the ending to make sense

These are the expectations of a mainstream audience. This is what I was implied in the original post. It's nothing to be ashamed of. This is exactly why the ending came as such a shock.

I will dsicuss "Narrative minimilism" in my next update.

Also, Bioware, if you make 100+ hours of Space Opera, don't try to turn it into Requiem for a Dream in the last 5 minutes. Your audience likely doesn't appreciate that.

I'm pretty sure that's in Screenplay Writing 101.

[Bill Casey]

Pulling off a satisfying coherent narrative that resonates with people is a feat of incredible difficulty...
Making everything abstract is pineapple sunset bicycle...

The latter is a sales pitch. You have to convince enough people that you are brilliant even though what you do is the most blatant form of style over substance. The cinematogaphy is amazing so it doesn't have to make sense...

It's almost as bad as Michael Bay. Almost...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[ahandsomeshark]

Taboo-XX wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

A recent example of this is Drive with Ryan Gosling. Did you know that the director shot an ending where Driver died but that test audiences didn't like it?

Blade Runner also has like 400 editions. I've seen it twice and still can't figure out which edition I have.

I own five. I know of at least seven.

mine is sans voice over, but also sans unicorn scenes which are supposed to be in the directors cut and final cut. I semi thing some nerd just spliced it together himself and took out the unicorn.

[Taboo]

Creston918 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Verhner wrote...

It is about the expectations of the audience.
We expected to take earth back, not blow it up.
We expected at least some kind of victory, all of them feels like "critical mission failure"
We expected our choices to matter.
We expected Harbinger to be the ultimate bad guy
We expected Shepard to tell the starchild to bugger off, i mean really in essence he IS the reapers!
We expected the ending to make sense

These are the expectations of a mainstream audience. This is what I was implied in the original post. It's nothing to be ashamed of. This is exactly why the ending came as such a shock.

I will dsicuss "Narrative minimilism" in my next update.

Also, Bioware, if you make 100+ hours of Space Opera, don't try to turn it into Requiem for a Dream in the last 5 minutes. Your audience likely doesn't appreciate that.

I'm pretty sure that's in Screenplay Writing 101.

I will also address this in the next update which will happen later today or tomorrow.

[Myrmedus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

A recent example of this is Drive with Ryan Gosling. Did you know that the director shot an ending where Driver died but that test audiences didn't like it?

Blade Runner also has like 400 editions. I've seen it twice and still can't figure out which edition I have.

I own five. I know of at least seven.

Well that really IS a case of multiple narrative paths/endings!

[Pain Train]

Pretty well written piece, but I would point out that the difference in ME and films is that games (such as ME) ARE meant to be enjoyed in new ways via DLC unlike a movie that comes out and is finished (in most cases). Thus, there is no real incentive for a movie producer to do anything else to a movie where as a game producer stands to make as much money or more by properly adjusting the content to meet the gamers taste/wants.

And on the comment of "art", while some movies try to leave the movie goer with questions or even wondering "what the heck just happened?' (2001 anyone?), there still has to be a proper foreshadowing and building so that the pieces are there at the end, even if the movie does not connect them. ME3 failed in that department of correctly foreshadowing OR building on what came before when it got to the end. Thus, I would not call the ending to ME3 "artistic", but a simple failure of design.

Modifié par Pain Train, 19 avril 2012 - 10:52 .

[Creston918]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

A recent example of this is Drive with Ryan Gosling. Did you know that the director shot an ending where Driver died but that test audiences didn't like it?

No, I never saw Drive, because they made it appear as "MORE FAST AND THE FURIOUS!" since Hollywood and the game industry both try to make exactly the same thing (which is currently popular) over and over and over again. 

But it wouldn't surprise me at all. Tons of movies have their endings changed. Hollywood at least understands that if you make people angry, they're not going to come see your next movie. It's taking EAware a long time to realize that.

[Victia]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Verhner wrote...

It is about the expectations of the audience.
We expected to take earth back, not blow it up.
We expected at least some kind of victory, all of them feels like "critical mission failure"
We expected our choices to matter.
We expected Harbinger to be the ultimate bad guy
We expected Shepard to tell the starchild to bugger off, i mean really in essence he IS the reapers!
We expected the ending to make sense

These are the expectations of a mainstream audience. This is what I was implied in the original post. It's nothing to be ashamed of. This is exactly why the ending came as such a shock.

I will dsicuss "Narrative minimilism" in my next update.

I have been trying to avoid discussing the whole artistic integrity arguement with anyone mosty as if I get started on it I wont stop, especially as I am currently on maternity leave and dont get out much  (ask my husband lol) and I dont want to bore anyone with long posts on art that they have no interest in but I will give a quick input here (I  would be happy to discuss it at length with anyone who wants to - she says hopefully:innocent:).

I have a PhD is the History of Art, my dissertation was written on iconography and symbology (most people think of art history as just the study of old paintings but it includes much more than that, basically its the study of all forms of artistic expression and the social/political/historical influences behind them) so I understand the ending just fine. My point being that I would concider myself cultured and not what I would call part of the mindless mainsteam that so many seem to think all re-takers are (infact I believe the opposite is true, as most people i know who enjyed the endings are casual gamers who have very little interest in the story or art of a game), and I hated the ending to Mass Effect 3.

There are many reasons for my dislike, most of the are well know as others have stated them in other threads, artistic integrity, and biowares bad PR are amoung some of the out of game elements but there is one thing that particually annoys me. The complete change of style during the ending sequence, to me it almost feels like reading les Miserable, digesting every fantastic word that Victor Hugo writes, enjoying the backstories and culture and history and getting to the last chapter to find that JK Rowling has plastered hogwarts all over it, or viewing the mona lisa with picasso having painted the face, the suspension of disbelief was broken and not because something is bad or wrong but because 2 things have been glued together that do not mesh well. ME3's ending would have been fantastic if it was consistant with the rest of the game/series but it wasnt and alot of people picked up on the artistic inconsistencys, most people (not all) want to read a book, look at a painting, watch a film etc and get lost in its beauty (yes this can be a positive or negative beauty) but when something so out of 'character' happens, they cant do that any more and feel that the experiance was a waste and they question the validity of the piece and in extreem cases the art form itself.

Anyway I better go before this turns in to a full blow rant !

[ahandsomeshark]

Also Daredevil and Donnie Darko basically released entirely different film versions post original release.

[ahandsomeshark]

Creston918 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

hopeisreal wrote...

How do you release a story with an iffy ending...and just come up with a whole new ending with different plot points? I don't think that has ever been done in ANY film in history. The end was the end.

Films have their endings completely redone far, far, FAR more often than you think, and often against the wishes of the director/producer and the main actors. Dodgeball, for example, had its ending changed when they showed it in a screening and everyone hated it, and Ben Stiller practically went apesh*t over it. They still changed the ending, however, into an "everyone lives happily ever after" tale.

Offhand, I know that that Demi Moore flick in which she's a stripper also had its ending changed, and there are loads and loads more.

Authors have changed their books, retconned previous books, etc.

This idea that Bioware is somehow breaking some sanctified trust is wholly misguided.

A recent example of this is Drive with Ryan Gosling. Did you know that the director shot an ending where Driver died but that test audiences didn't like it?

No, I never saw Drive, because they made it appear as "MORE FAST AND THE FURIOUS!" since Hollywood and the game industry both try to make exactly the same thing (which is currently popular) over and over and over again. 

But it wouldn't surprise me at all. Tons of movies have their endings changed. Hollywood at least understands that if you make people angry, they're not going to come see your next movie. It's taking EAware a long time to realize that.

Drive is nothing like the fast and the furious. It's more like Le Samourai meets GTA: Vice City.

And I know you're probably thinking that makes no sense but it does and it's fantastic.