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[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

C: "Without us to prevent it, synthetics would destroy all organics"
S: "That doesn't make any sense. Synthetics are just like other people. They want to live free. If you let them, they'll leave you alone. They can even be your allies."
C: "Synthetics can self-improve faster than organics. Once more intelligent than organics, they'll treat them like you treat species of lesser intelligence. As you say, they're just like other people."
S: "You're telling me the alliance will not last?"
C: "Yes....."

That would still end in taking the word of a genocidal maniac over common sense.

Shepard has been through hell and back multiple times. The injuries are just a bad excuse for Shepard's sudden onset of stupidity and weakness. Shepard is someone who's already died once of asphixiation and exposure to vacuum, and didn't come back a wreck because of it.
Shepard is made of harder stuff than you or me. Shepard would not give up, and not accept the lies and assumptions of this glowing psychopath.

It's not a matter of taking the word of the Catalyst. The Crucible determines what is possible, not the Catalyst and not Shepard. Shepard may rail against the inevitable all he can, and yes, it is very much needed that you get the option, but that won't change that there are no other options in the end. It is, in fact, much more believable to be restricted to the three options here that to be restricted to giving the Collector base to Cerberus or destroying it at the end of ME2.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2012 - 08:23 .

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I guess you never played a Renegade-ish Shepard. Shepard *never* says it would be too much for  a human to handle, and he never says it would be too much of a gamble. Use the Paragon lines on Mars, and he never even says that he'll get rid of the Reapers once and for all. Instead, he asks TIM to help, saying that fighting among ourselves will only help the Reapers. You can play Shepard consistently, so that in the end it appears completely natural that he says TIM was right.

And even if you're Paragon, "The Illusive Man was right after all" just admits that he was right in one thing: that it's possible for a human to control the Reapers. It says nothing about it being a desirable option.

My main is renegade leaning. Don't you tell me what my Shepard thinks.
Overall, Shepard's lines constantly oppose TIM's view and present control as an unviable option. Fact.
When paragon Shepard appeals to TIM to help them, it's to help them destroy the Reapers.

Shepard's line in the end implies that TIM is right in his goals, not his theories.

[kalasaurus]

Loss of oxygen to her brain? She did lose a lot of blood, maybe she's really really delirious?

Not a great way to end Commander Shepard's story, regardless. It's pretty depressing when her last words are, "I don't know" in autodialogue.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's not a matter of taking the word of the Catalyst. The Crucible determines what is possible, not the Catalyst and not Shepard. Shepard may rail against the inevitable all he can, and yes, it is very much needed that you get the option, but that won't change that there are no other options in the end. 

The Crucible is likely designed by the Catalyst. They are options presented by and approved by the Catalyst.
The Catalyst is a murdering psychopath. It is not to be trusted. It's assertions are to be rejected. It is the enemy. It must be resisted. That was the whole point of Mass Effect. Resist the Reapers.
Taking any of the Catalyst's options is submitting to the Reapers. 

[Jestina]

Also dumb at the beginning. The committee was probably thinking...who is this idiot...after Shep's brilliant fight or die plan.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

C: "Without us to prevent it, synthetics would destroy all organics"
S: "That doesn't make any sense. Synthetics are just like other people. They want to live free. If you let them, they'll leave you alone. They can even be your allies."
C: "Synthetics can self-improve faster than organics. Once more intelligent than organics, they'll treat them like you treat species of lesser intelligence. As you say, they're just like other people."
S: "You're telling me the alliance will not last?"
C: "Yes....."

That would still end in taking the word of a genocidal maniac over common sense.

Shepard has been through hell and back multiple times. The injuries are just a bad excuse for Shepard's sudden onset of stupidity and weakness. Shepard is someone who's already died once of asphixiation and exposure to vacuum, and didn't come back a wreck because of it.
Shepard is made of harder stuff than you or me. Shepard would not give up, and not accept the lies and assumptions of this glowing psychopath.

It's not a matter of taking the word of the Catalyst. The Crucible determines what is possible, not the Catalyst and not Shepard. Shepard may rail against the inevitable all he can, and yes, it is very much needed that you get the option, but that won't change that there are no other options in the end. 

Of course there could be other options than the limited set of solutions a genocidal maniac is willing to provide to you. Really accepting the ways in which it says you can utilise the crucible at face value is stupid.

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I guess you never played a Renegade-ish Shepard. Shepard *never* says it would be too much for  a human to handle, and he never says it would be too much of a gamble. Use the Paragon lines on Mars, and he never even says that he'll get rid of the Reapers once and for all. Instead, he asks TIM to help, saying that fighting among ourselves will only help the Reapers. You can play Shepard consistently, so that in the end it appears completely natural that he says TIM was right.

And even if you're Paragon, "The Illusive Man was right after all" just admits that he was right in one thing: that it's possible for a human to control the Reapers. It says nothing about it being a desirable option.

My main is renegade leaning. Don't you tell me what my Shepard thinks.
Overall, Shepard's lines constantly oppose TIM's view and present control as an unviable option. Fact.
When paragon Shepard appeals to TIM to help them, it's to help them destroy the Reapers.

Not sure about that, actually. I don't think destroying the Reapers is ever mentions if you play this conversation right. I've repeated it often enough to get exactly that result. And well, at the time, there doesn't appear to appear another option. Why is it so problematic that Shepard learns that there is another option?

Shepard's line in the end implies that TIM is right in his goals, not his theories.

That's your interpretation. It never came across like that to me. Shepard's line was not a moral statement, but a statement of fact. "To be right" in a factual sense never applies to goals, because goals can't be true or false.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Not sure about that, actually. I don't think destroying the Reapers is ever mentions if you play this conversation right. I've repeated it often enough to get exactly that result. And well, at the time, there doesn't appear to appear another option. Why is it so problematic that Shepard learns that there is another option?

Because. You spend. The entire. Game. Telling TIM. He's wrong.
Not to mention hearing horror stories from Javik about indoctrinated Prothean factions wanting to control the Reapers.

That's your interpretation. It never came across like that to me. Shepard's line was not a moral statement, but a statement of fact. "To be right" in a factual sense never applies to goals, because goals can't be true or false.

Matter of fact: "So it *is* possible to control the Reapers"
Confirmation of morality "So X was right all along!"

[Gexora]

Many support destroy as the way to tell Starbrat to **** off and do what you are supposed to do – destroy the Reapers at all costs. HOWEVER, there is a catch – how do you even know shooting the tube (nevermind how you learned about having to shoot a tube in the first place lol) will bring the demise of the Reapers? After all, the kid presents himself as REAPER GOD. HE IS A REAPER. HE IS ON THEIR SIDE. Maybe shooting the tube will give reapers and epic powerup?
Alas, Shepard can only speculate. And I dunno about yours, but my Shepard isn’t much for speclation. She prefers her shotgun

[The Angry One]

wright1978 wrote...

Of course there could be other options than the limited set of solutions a genocidal maniac is willing to provide to you. Really accepting the ways in which it says you can utilise the crucible at face value is stupid.

Yeah. Also, enough with the Shepard dying crap.
Take a bit of the energy that's used to sprint-jump into the damn beam and call Admiral Hackett for his opinion. Hell, try to contact the crucible scientists, see what they make of it. Explore options!

But no let's just take Space Hitler's word for it. This is ridiculous.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

C: "Without us to prevent it, synthetics would destroy all organics"
S: "That doesn't make any sense. Synthetics are just like other people. They want to live free. If you let them, they'll leave you alone. They can even be your allies."
C: "Synthetics can self-improve faster than organics. Once more intelligent than organics, they'll treat them like you treat species of lesser intelligence. As you say, they're just like other people."
S: "You're telling me the alliance will not last?"
C: "Yes....."

That would still end in taking the word of a genocidal maniac over common sense.

Shepard has been through hell and back multiple times. The injuries are just a bad excuse for Shepard's sudden onset of stupidity and weakness. Shepard is someone who's already died once of asphixiation and exposure to vacuum, and didn't come back a wreck because of it.
Shepard is made of harder stuff than you or me. Shepard would not give up, and not accept the lies and assumptions of this glowing psychopath.

It's not a matter of taking the word of the Catalyst. The Crucible determines what is possible, not the Catalyst and not Shepard. Shepard may rail against the inevitable all he can, and yes, it is very much needed that you get the option, but that won't change that there are no other options in the end. 

Of course there could be other options than the limited set of solutions a genocidal maniac is willing to provide to you. Really accepting the ways in which it says you can utilise the crucible at face value is stupid.

There could be, but THERE ARE NOT. That's the reality of the thing. At some point, Shepard has to accept that there are no other options or lose. Continuing to insist there must be another option because you don't like the options presented becomes insanity at some point. How long would you have Shepard insist that there must be another option when there isn't before he accepts?

You, as the player, from a metagaming perspective, can insist that there should be a fourth option, that the writers should have put one in. Shepard, from the in-word perspective, cannot, because he cannot control what options are available to him. Shepard isn't omnipotent, damn it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[BattleVisor]

The Angry One wrote...

Don't forget: "So the Illusive Man was right!".

I mean, really? WHY WOULD YOU EVER SAY THAT!?
I facepalmed so hard when I heard that. Little did I know that wasn't even the worst of it.

Yes that was enlightening.

[Muhkida]

Gexora wrote...

Many support destroy as the way to tell Starbrat to **** off and do what you are supposed to do – destroy the Reapers at all costs. HOWEVER, there is a catch – how do you even know shooting the tube (nevermind how you learned about having to shoot a tube in the first place lol) will bring the demise of the Reapers? After all, the kid presents himself as REAPER GOD. HE IS A REAPER. HE IS ON THEIR SIDE. Maybe shooting the tube will give reapers and epic powerup?
Alas, Shepard can only speculate. And I dunno about yours, but my Shepard isn’t much for speclation. She prefers her shotgun

I actually think there's a possibility for the Reapers to live through the "destroy" ending as well.  Not because the Star Child was trolling, but because the Reapers aren't fully synthetic.  Maybe another giant human Reaper is out there somewhere in the galaxy doing a victory dance.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Unfortunately it is. It is absurd for a character like Shepard who is essentially larger than life, and a story like Mass Effect, which has always been based on hope.

"You have hope. More than you think."

:innocent:

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There could be, but THERE ARE NOT. That's the reality of the thing.

How do you know? Because starbaby tells you? 
Why do you trust this proven liar to tell you the truth?

At some point, Shepard has to accept that there are no other options or lose. Continuing to insist there must be another option because you don't like the options presented becomes insanity at some point. How long would you have Shepard insist that there must be another option when there isn't before he accepts?

Call Hackett. Explore the Crucible. Do anything.
If it comes down to it, warn the fleet that the Crucible is a Reaper trap. Attempt to destroy the Presidium tower and perhaps that will destroy the Catalyst and confuse the Reapers. ANYTHING.

You, as the player, from a metagaming perspective, can insist that there should be a fourth option, that the writers should have put one in. Shepard, from the in-word perspective, cannot, because he cannot control what options are available to him. Shepard isn't omnipotent, damn it.

Shepard, from an in-world perspective would try something else. Anything else. There ARE options.
Saren said there was no hope.
Sovereign said there was no hope.
Harbinger said there was no hope.
They were all wrong.

This is Mass Effect, not an existential trip into the inevitability of failure.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There could be, but THERE ARE NOT. That's the reality of the thing. At some point, Shepard has to accept that there are no other options or lose. Continuing to insist there must be another option because you don't like the options presented becomes insanity at some point. How long would you have Shepard insist that there must be another option when there isn't before he accepts?

You, as the player, from a metagaming perspective, can insist that there should be a fourth option, that the writers should have put one in. Shepard, from the in-word perspective, cannot, because he cannot control what options are available to him. Shepard isn't omnipotent, damn it.

No from a metagaming perspective i can conclude Bioware only put in 3 endings.
From Shep's perspective without such knowledge there could bean infinite number of solutions. Shep just doesn't bother to try and look for them. The genocidal maniac who has slaughtered trillions and is still trying to exterminate all life pops up and goes 'hey Shep, here's my solutions come and get them while their hot'. Shep bounds along like the reapers faithful pooch and this makes zero sense.

Modifié par wright1978, 19 avril 2012 - 08:39 .

[Ieldra]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's not a matter of taking the word of the Catalyst. The Crucible determines what is possible, not the Catalyst and not Shepard. Shepard may rail against the inevitable all he can, and yes, it is very much needed that you get the option, but that won't change that there are no other options in the end. 

The Crucible is likely designed by the Catalyst. They are options presented by and approved by the Catalyst.
The Catalyst is a murdering psychopath. It is not to be trusted. It's assertions are to be rejected. It is the enemy. It must be resisted. That was the whole point of Mass Effect. Resist the Reapers.
Taking any of the Catalyst's options is submitting to the Reapers. 

I'm sorry, but THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS! That this is the Catalyst's opinion has no bearing on the matter. Someone's opinion doesn't change reality, your insistence that there must be another option just because you don't trust the entity that presents them to you is naive. Sometimes, reality is at it seems.

Shepard may ask a million times and distrust the Catalyst all he wants, he may shoot at the Catalyst a million times, it is all irrelevant if there are really no other options.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm sorry, but THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS! That this is the Catalyst's opinion has no bearing on the matter. Someone's opinion doesn't change reality, your insistence that there must be another option just because you don't trust the entity that presents them to you is naive. Sometimes, reality is at it seems.

PROVE IT.
The only thing telling us there are no other options is the Catalyst, THE LEADER OF THE REAPERS.

Shepard may ask a million times and distrust the Catalyst all he wants, he may shoot at the Catalyst a million times, it is all irrelevant if there are really no other options.

Again, prove it. I've given a handful of other options in this thread alone.

[PsyrenY]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There could be, but THERE ARE NOT. That's the reality of the thing. At some point, Shepard has to accept that there are no other options or lose. Continuing to insist there must be another option because you don't like the options presented becomes insanity at some point. How long would you have Shepard insist that there must be another option when there isn't before he accepts?

You, as the player, from a metagaming perspective, can insist that there should be a fourth option, that the writers should have put one in. Shepard, from the in-word perspective, cannot, because he cannot control what options are available to him. Shepard isn't omnipotent, damn it.

This whole post basically.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
What about the billions of years before they existed?

Who's to say the Catalyst was not part of the very first civilization advanced enough to create AIs?

It's been engaged in this same cycle for all that time. It has not one shred of proof to back up it's claims. Not one example. Not even an anecdote.

It simply did not present them to Shepard. This is Bioware's fault not allowing Shepard to properly question the StarChild and for it to back up his arguments.
Probrably because it is obvious. So long as two different people exist, one will attempt to destroy/subjugate the other.

Conjecture, and you realise that makes this concept even worse. Was the Catalyst trying other methods for some time? That didn't work?
Funny, organic life continued all the same.

No more conjecture than what you present. Mayhaps, thousands of organics civilizations were destroyed while the Catalyst was experimenting different solutions before it came up with Care-Takers for the Galaxy.

They were gods. Shepard was no one to question them.
Shepard is no one to question a god. Your own logic.

If God suddenly descended on Earth and told the human race that the only way for life in the rest of the universe to florish is through our extinction, can we prove him wrong?
Of course not because He is God. But we can still be selfish and choose to fight regardless.
You don't have to accept the Catalyst's logic and choose Synthesis. You can destroy or control the Reapers.
It does not mean you are not making a mistake however.

Synthesis improves nothing, it is disgusting.
The Catalyst's solutions are as amoral as it is. Shepard should be able to resist this psychopath. End of story.

The morality of the solutions does not matter one bit. Only their results do.
And Synthesis opens an entirely new universe of possibilities for all life in the galaxy whithout having to sacrifice our existence or individuality for it. Thus, it is desirable. More than that, beautiful.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Again, prove it. I've given a handful of other options in this thread alone.

The only one you've mentioned that's halfway plausible is "call Hackett"; we'll have to see if the EC addresses this (or your inability to do so.)

[BattleVisor]

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3ovaqa/

Modifié par BattleVisor, 19 avril 2012 - 08:47 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Shepard been taking hallex.
Bad Shep.
That's how manshep/Kaidan get frisky in earlier scene before cerberus base. Morinth's hallex.

[The Angry One]

MisterJB wrote...

Who's to say the Catalyst was not part of the very first civilization advanced enough to create AIs?

More conjecture. Also, if this were true, then the Catalyst has no proof whatsoever and has been engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy from the very beginning.

It simply did not present them to Shepard. This is Bioware's fault not allowing Shepard to properly question the StarChild and for it to back up his arguments.
Probrably because it is obvious. So long as two different people exist, one will attempt to destroy/subjugate the other.

It does not follow that one will exterminate the other. At all.

No more conjecture than what you present. Mayhaps, thousands of organics civilizations were destroyed while the Catalyst was experimenting different solutions before it came up with Care-Takers for the Galaxy.

Organic civilisations do not equal all organic life.
The Catalyst has destroyed millions of organic civilisations itself.

T
If God suddenly descended on Earth and told the human race that the only way for life in the rest of the universe to florish is through our extinction, can we prove him wrong?

Would you lay down and take it?

Of course not because He is God. But we can still be selfish and choose to fight regardless.

You're speaking to an atheist, I would no more believe any "God" than I would Sovereign.

You don't have to accept the Catalyst's logic and choose Synthesis. You can destroy or control the Reapers.
It does not mean you are not making a mistake however.

All choices follow his will.

The morality of the solutions does not matter one bit. Only their results do.
And Synthesis opens an entirely new universe of possibilities for all life in the galaxy whithout having to sacrifice our existence or individuality for it. Thus, it is desirable. More than that, beautiful.

They open no possibilities. It changes nothing. You can romanticise it all you want - it doesn't even cure Joker's brittle bones.

[Gexora]

...and that's why my future playthrough will probably all stop at emptying infinite ammo into Starchild's head.
And lots of headcannoning