254 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Shepard is no longer bleeding in the Catalyst scene.
Shepard is still alive after an indeterminate period after max EMS destroy.

Really people is it too hard to work that out?

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...


In-universe, for Shepard the only confirmation that these options will stop the cycle is the word of the being that started the cycle. And she's told she'd die in all three, so she won't even see the consequences of what she does.

How much blood do you need to lose to not see a problem with that?

Enough to realize that you have no choice?

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here it is different. I'm sure you don't have a better option at hand. You just wish for a better option. There is no obligation for reality to conform to your wishes.

Again, this. Ieldra's right on the money.

Okay. Let's look at this again from an in-universe perspective. I have options offered by the master reaper. I have no reason to think any of them will do anything good. I have some reason to think all of that is part of the reaper cycle and may actually make things worse.
On the other hand I know that my friend Liara took care of the plan, let's call it plan C - to pass on the warning to the next cycle, which I know will happen if we fail. And I know that I have the biggest fleet the galaxy ever amassed fighting the reapers.

Where is my 'no' option? Even if Shepard picks it not knowing what will follow - and I'm arguing a conventional victory is less of an ***-pull than rebuilding the relays.

[General User]

Husks, Collectors, and other Reaper abominations, even Reapers themselves are a synthesis of a sort. They're machines with organic components. They're the dark side of synthesis; they're reduction of people to the status of machines.

[Muhkida]

MisterJB wrote...

Muhkida wrote...
What kind of stuff are you on?  We are all one race?  In our Earth, Asians =/= Hispanics.

 Fine, we are all humans with the same wants and needs. And we still kill each other like there's no tomorrow.
But lasting peace between different species of organics and more than that, lasting peace between organics and synthetics is possible? Please.

Not saying it was possible, I'm just pointing out how your statement  "We are all one race" was massive fail.  Don't twist things....please.

Either way, I'm sure some crazy but infamous Austrian-born German that left his mark in history around the 1930s-40s would've liked you.

Godwin's law.

Nice scapegoat, but don't deny that your not implying that diversity can be bad.  Because if you're not, then you need to fix your sentences.

You stake the claim that the Catalyst to be something omnipotent or perfect......watch the ending again.

The Star Child admits that whatever choice Shepard makes would prove the Catalyst's original solution to be wrong.

Not wrong. Simply not viable anymore.

Yeah, so I guess the next time somebody said he "was wrong", I'll assume he didn't really mean it.

Btw, saying synthesis is the final end of evolution in itself is a terrible contradiction.

True but it's still an improvement to the life that already exists.

With what kind of evidence?  To say that synthesis is an improvement to the galaxy is speculation at best.  Heck, I can throw in a crazy example how this can turn south real fast. 

Garrus : Joker, why is your green psuedo-nanotech line thing on your body darker than mine?
Joker : I don't know?
Garrus : I don't like it....

It's speculation, but who's to say I'm wrong?

EDIT : Got the format all messed up, screw it.  I'll just bold my answers

Modifié par Muhkida, 19 avril 2012 - 09:10 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Also synthesis is an improvement? tell that to saren and all those people that were turned into husks.

Oh, for the love of... you can't compare the two.
Husks was subjugation of organics by synthetics.
Synthesis is a symbiotic relationship between organics and synthetics.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

Do I have to say who said this...?

Association Fallacy again. Saren cured the genophage too, curing the genophage must be evil!!111!one

[KingZayd]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Also synthesis is an improvement? tell that to saren and all those people that were turned into husks.

Oh, for the love of... you can't compare the two.
Husks was subjugation of organics by synthetics.
Synthesis is a symbiotic relationship between organics and synthetics.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

Do I have to say who said this...?

Who could have guessed before mass effect 3's release , that people would end up agreeing with the reapers, and unintentionally sounding like Saren. To me, that's some of the strongest evidence of Indoctrination theory (everyday, my belief goes stronger) . people SOUND indoctrinated.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...
More conjecture. Also, if this were true, then the Catalyst has no proof whatsoever and has been engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy from the very beginning.

Or the Catalyst has actually seen it happen multiple times. Javik tells you the story of organics who were taken over by VIs. And you think that this was an isolated case? That the Catalyst has not seen it happen again and again over the course of billions of years?

It does not follow that one will exterminate the other. At all.

Maybe not imediatelly (that will be subjugation) but we don't live in a world of unending space and resources. As long as there is life, there will be war.

Organic civilisations do not equal all organic life.

True but sentient life is the most important form of life. And the synthetics would not risk an organic civilaztion advance enough to challenge them for the cosmos.

The Catalyst has destroyed millions of organic civilisations itself.

Civilisations that would have been destroyed regardless. At least, the Catalyst preserves them in Reaper form which is better than complete extinction.

You're speaking to an atheist, I would no more believe any "God" than I would Sovereign.

Why not? A being that has accumulated knowledge for billions of year will, inevitably, be much more intelligent and experienced than you. It will know better than you.

All choices follow his will.

No, they don't. The Catalyst does not want Shepard to destroy or Control the Reapers. It is simply presenting the facts.
The Crucible dictates the consequences of each decision, no the Catalyst.
And, of course, you are assuming that the methods the Catalyst chose to preserve organic life somehow corrupt its intentions. That is, to preserve organic life.

They open no possibilities. It changes nothing. You can romanticise it all you want - it doesn't even cure Joker's brittle bones.

You have no more proof that Synthesis has negative consequences than I do that it has positives. Sure, the Catalyst can be lying and Synthesis might, instantaneously, Indocrinate everyone in the galaxy. Or it might improve everyone's life by granting us certain synthetic abilities like immortality and, yes, even cure Joker's disease in time.
Since there is no prooff one way or the other, I, at least, am choosing to remain positive and assume that the ending hardest to get will yeld the better rewards.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Also synthesis is an improvement? tell that to saren and all those people that were turned into husks.

Oh, for the love of... you can't compare the two.
Husks was subjugation of organics by synthetics.
Synthesis is a symbiotic relationship between organics and synthetics.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

Do I have to say who said this...?

Association Fallacy again. Saren cured the genophage too, curing the genophage must be evil!!111!one

Saren got fooled the same way you did.

[General User]

Muhkida wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Muhkida wrote...
What kind of stuff are you on?  We are all one race?  In our Earth, Asians =/= Hispanics.

 Fine, we are all humans with the same wants and needs. And we still kill each other like there's no tomorrow.
But lasting peace between different species of organics and more than that, lasting peace between organics and synthetics is possible? Please.

Not saying it was possible, I'm just pointing out how your statement  "We are all one race" was massive fail.  Don't twist things....please.

Either way, I'm sure some crazy but infamous Austrian-born German that left his mark in history around the 1930s-40s would've liked you.

Godwin's law.

Nice scapegoat, but don't deny that your not implying that diversity can be bad.  Because if you're not, then you need to fix your sentences.

You stake the claim that the Catalyst to be something omnipotent or perfect......watch the ending again.

The Star Child admits that whatever choice Shepard makes would prove the Catalyst's original solution to be wrong.

Not wrong. Simply not viable anymore.

Yeah, so I guess the next time somebody said he "was wrong", I'll assume he didn't really mean it.

Btw, saying synthesis is the final end of evolution in itself is a terrible contradiction.

True but it's still an improvement to the life that already exists.

With what kind of evidence?  To say that synthesis is an improvement to the galaxy is speculation at best.  Heck, I can throw in a crazy example how this can turn south real fast. 

Garrus : Joker, why is your green psuedo-nanotech line thing on your body darker than mine?
Joker : I don't know?
Garrus : I don't like it....

It's speculation, but who's to say I'm wrong?

EDIT : Got the format all messed up, screw it.  I'll just bold my answers

Breaking the Reaper cycle is the real improvement to the galaxy.  Next to that, everything else is a shade of grey.

[Bill Casey]

Optimystic_X wrote...


Enough to realize that you have no choice?

__________________________________________________________


Shepard: "It's not just about living 'till tomorrow. Sometimes you take a stand."


EDI: "But the probability of success was near zero. And ultimately, they failed. No prisoners escaped."


Shepard: "Are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?"

__________________________________________________________



Shepard: No matter what kind of technology we might find, it’s not worth it.

Illusive Man: Shepard, you died fighting for what you believed. I brought you back so you could keep fighting. Some would say what we did to you was going too far, but look what you’ve accomplished. I didn’t discard you because I know your value. Don’t be so quick to discard this facility. Think of the potential.

Shepard: We’ll fight and win without it. I won’t let fear compromise who I am.

__________________________________________________________


Saren: You saw the visions. You saw what happened to the Protheans. Surrender or Death. There are no other options.

Shepard: You could have resisted. You could have fought. Instead you surrendered. You quit.

__________________________________________________________


Shepard: You’re playing with things you don’t understand. With power you shouldn’t be able to use.

__________________________________________________________


Eve: I found this. A simple crystal, but it became my chisel. Take it as a reminder, Commander. In the darkest hour, there’s always a way out.

__________________________________________________________


Anderson: There’s always another way

__________________________________________________________

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 avril 2012 - 09:13 .

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Also synthesis is an improvement? tell that to saren and all those people that were turned into husks.

Oh, for the love of... you can't compare the two.
Husks was subjugation of organics by synthetics.
Synthesis is a symbiotic relationship between organics and synthetics.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

Do I have to say who said this...?

Association Fallacy again. Saren cured the genophage too, curing the genophage must be evil!!111!one

Saren wanted to cure the genophageto use the Krogan as a tool.
Saren's personal stated goal was synthesis. It's not by association, it's by philosophy. It's the exact same thing. The Catalyst matches it almost word for word.

[Muhkida]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Also synthesis is an improvement? tell that to saren and all those people that were turned into husks.

Oh, for the love of... you can't compare the two.
Husks was subjugation of organics by synthetics.
Synthesis is a symbiotic relationship between organics and synthetics.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

Do I have to say who said this...?

Association Fallacy again. Saren cured the genophage too, curing the genophage must be evil!!111!one

Did Saren actually cure the genophage?  I thought he was trying to find a cure....I forgot which.

Modifié par Muhkida, 19 avril 2012 - 09:15 .

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

Saren got fooled the same way you did.

Shepard was implanted by Sovereign? When?

[Favourite store on the CitadeI]

Because, Spacemagic.

[MisterJB]

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Also synthesis is an improvement? tell that to saren and all those people that were turned into husks.

Oh, for the love of... you can't compare the two.
Husks was subjugation of organics by synthetics.
Synthesis is a symbiotic relationship between organics and synthetics.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

Do I have to say who said this...?

Saren cured the genophage. Is curing the genophage, under any possible circunstances, evil?

Then why would a symbiosis or flesh and steel where we would keep the strenghts of both while ridding ourselves of our weaknesses be evil under any circunstances?

[Muhkida]

General User wrote...

Muhkida wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Muhkida wrote...
What kind of stuff are you on?  We are all one race?  In our Earth, Asians =/= Hispanics.

 Fine, we are all humans with the same wants and needs. And we still kill each other like there's no tomorrow.
But lasting peace between different species of organics and more than that, lasting peace between organics and synthetics is possible? Please.

Not saying it was possible, I'm just pointing out how your statement  "We are all one race" was massive fail.  Don't twist things....please.

Either way, I'm sure some crazy but infamous Austrian-born German that left his mark in history around the 1930s-40s would've liked you.

Godwin's law.

Nice scapegoat, but don't deny that your not implying that diversity can be bad.  Because if you're not, then you need to fix your sentences.

You stake the claim that the Catalyst to be something omnipotent or perfect......watch the ending again.

The Star Child admits that whatever choice Shepard makes would prove the Catalyst's original solution to be wrong.

Not wrong. Simply not viable anymore.

Yeah, so I guess the next time somebody said he "was wrong", I'll assume he didn't really mean it.

Btw, saying synthesis is the final end of evolution in itself is a terrible contradiction.

True but it's still an improvement to the life that already exists.

With what kind of evidence?  To say that synthesis is an improvement to the galaxy is speculation at best.  Heck, I can throw in a crazy example how this can turn south real fast. 

Garrus : Joker, why is your green psuedo-nanotech line thing on your body darker than mine?
Joker : I don't know?
Garrus : I don't like it....

It's speculation, but who's to say I'm wrong?

EDIT : Got the format all messed up, screw it.  I'll just bold my answers

Breaking the Reaper cycle is the real improvement to the galaxy.  Next to that, everything else is a shade of grey.

The breaking of the Reaper cycle?  Heck yeah I'll agree to that.  But that's not MisterJB was trying to point out.

[a.m.p]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Also synthesis is an improvement? tell that to saren and all those people that were turned into husks.

Oh, for the love of... you can't compare the two.
Husks was subjugation of organics by synthetics.
Synthesis is a symbiotic relationship between organics and synthetics.

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

Do I have to say who said this...?

Association Fallacy again. Saren cured the genophage too, curing the genophage must be evil!!111!one

Saren wanted to cure the genophageto use the Krogan as a tool.
Saren's personal stated goal was synthesis. It's not by association, it's by philosophy. It's the exact same thing. The Catalyst matches it almost word for word.

Hell, it doesn't matter what Saren believed. The fact that this option is labeled as the best outcome by the reaper master AI is enough to stay as far away from that beam as possible, putting aside all philosophcal implications of taking it.

Modifié par a.m.p, 19 avril 2012 - 09:15 .

[KingZayd]

MisterJB wrote...

The Catalyst has destroyed millions of organic civilisations itself.

Civilisations that would have been destroyed regardless. At least, the Catalyst preserves them in Reaper form which is better than complete extinction.

You do realise that mr Star "I control the Reapers" Child preserves them in Reaper form as his slaves (which some may not accept is better than complete extinction) and then apparently offers these slaves to Shepard in return for not destroying them or Mr Starchild himself?

Modifié par KingZayd, 19 avril 2012 - 09:15 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Saren's personal stated goal was synthesis. It's not by association, it's by philosophy. It's the exact same thing. The Catalyst matches it almost word for word.

There's nothing wrong with his philosophy - that's the fallacy, you're assuming something is wrong with it just because HE advocated it, rather than weighing it on its own merits.

Synthesis was not possible before the Crucible, because the Reapers still had their original, unmodified programming.

[KingKhan03]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Saren's personal stated goal was synthesis. It's not by association, it's by philosophy. It's the exact same thing. The Catalyst matches it almost word for word.

There's nothing wrong with his philosophy - that's the fallacy, you're assuming something is wrong with it just because HE advocated it, rather than weighing it on its own merits.

Synthesis was not possible before the Crucible, because the Reapers still had their original, unmodified programming.

Synthesis is wrong. Shepard choosing synthesis what about every single other species in the galaxy? It's wrong to force something like that on everyone else.

[MisterJB]

General User wrote...

Husks, Collectors, and other Reaper abominations, even Reapers themselves are a synthesis of a sort. They're machines with organic components. They're the dark side of synthesis; they're reduction of people to the status of machines.

On the other hand, machines, the Geth, were elevated to the status of people.
This was accomplished through the use of Reaper Code but I don't see forumites absolutely refusing this choosing rather to destroy them.

[KingZayd]

General User wrote...

Muhkida wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Muhkida wrote...
What kind of stuff are you on?  We are all one race?  In our Earth, Asians =/= Hispanics.

 Fine, we are all humans with the same wants and needs. And we still kill each other like there's no tomorrow.
But lasting peace between different species of organics and more than that, lasting peace between organics and synthetics is possible? Please.

Not saying it was possible, I'm just pointing out how your statement  "We are all one race" was massive fail.  Don't twist things....please.

Either way, I'm sure some crazy but infamous Austrian-born German that left his mark in history around the 1930s-40s would've liked you.

Godwin's law.

Nice scapegoat, but don't deny that your not implying that diversity can be bad.  Because if you're not, then you need to fix your sentences.

You stake the claim that the Catalyst to be something omnipotent or perfect......watch the ending again.

The Star Child admits that whatever choice Shepard makes would prove the Catalyst's original solution to be wrong.

Not wrong. Simply not viable anymore.

Yeah, so I guess the next time somebody said he "was wrong", I'll assume he didn't really mean it.

Btw, saying synthesis is the final end of evolution in itself is a terrible contradiction.

True but it's still an improvement to the life that already exists.

With what kind of evidence?  To say that synthesis is an improvement to the galaxy is speculation at best.  Heck, I can throw in a crazy example how this can turn south real fast. 

Garrus : Joker, why is your green psuedo-nanotech line thing on your body darker than mine?
Joker : I don't know?
Garrus : I don't like it....

It's speculation, but who's to say I'm wrong?

EDIT : Got the format all messed up, screw it.  I'll just bold my answers

Breaking the Reaper cycle is the real improvement to the galaxy.  Next to that, everything else is a shade of grey.

And the best way to be sure of breaking the Reaper cycle, is by killing them all.

[PsyrenY]

KingKhan03 wrote...

Synthesis is wrong. Shepard choosing synthesis what about every single other species in the galaxy? It's wrong to force something like that on everyone else.

The alternative is murdering all the geth for what could very well be a temporary solution, or risking the Reapers coming back in strength at an unspecified time (perhaps even 5 minutes after you die.)

Least of three evils, imo.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2012 - 09:17 .

[Sesshomaru47]

Tleining wrote...

because Shepard was pretty much brainless for all of ME3?
"Why should i go to the Citadel, the fight is here."
"Cerberus is supposed to be the Sword protecting Humanity not the Dagger in the back."

let's not get started on the whole conversation with the Security Council.

I hate that line. It's paragon too. The thing is it's like you've forgotten what they did too Adrimal Kohoku (forgive the spelling), Akuze and Toombs and what they did too Jack plus any other little thing you find out about it in ME3. Like the Turian poison. But hey they were protecting us. Shepard took a stupid pill at the start of ME3, there was a CoD logo on it. She forgot she hated Cerberus for two games and also that she liked to ask questions, lots of questiions.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren got fooled the same way you did.

Shepard was implanted by Sovereign? When?

Because Saren wasn't indoctrinated before the implants?

Modifié par KingZayd, 19 avril 2012 - 09:18 .