254 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

With max EMS, sovereigns are going down in the final battle. The Turians took out several too.

At what cost? Attrition seems to be going very much against them.

The Angry One wrote...
 The codex, again, shows proper tactics to take sovereigns down.

More armchair admirals. Man, if only the Turians read the codex!

The Angry One wrote...

Again, you're meta gaming. The reality of the situation is only like that BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN LIKE THAT.
IT CAN BE WRITTEN OTHER WAYS. There ARE other solutions. I can seriously expect the game to present me with ONE solution that works. ONE.

There isn't. Deal with it.

[DLClol]

The Angry One wrote...

Don't forget: "So the Illusive Man was right!".

I mean, really? WHY WOULD YOU EVER SAY THAT!?
I facepalmed so hard when I heard that. Little did I know that wasn't even the worst of it.

Well he technically was right. The reapers could be controlled, Shepard an co. wrote him off as a crazy bastard the entire game for thinking this.

[wright1978]

MisterJB wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Stronger doesn't mean better. If synthesis lobotomises life so it doesn't have the temerity to dare create anything like AI life again but that life is more durable that isn't a good thing imo.

There's no evidence it works like that. It could simply mean that any AI created would, automatically, have the same characteristics the Synthesis imparted on the geth or EDI.
People insist in assuming the worst rather than look at the good Synthesis can offer.

How would newly created AI life suddenly become synthetic without Shep and his magic seed spreader?
I  insist on assuming the worst because the Catalyst(an evil genocidal maniac) still believes in the certainty of its nutty logic. It claims synthesis as its new solution. It has created collectors, lobotomised protheans who create no art etc mixing their organic with tech. It is no stretch of imagination to assume synthesis is an extension of this collector experiment it has already done which obliterates creativity but still allows life to survive.

[NoUserNameHere]

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Sovereign seemed pretty sentient to me... Harbinger too.

At the time, I thought so too. 

Then, in ME3 we see hundreds, thousands even, of Reapers all marching in lockstep.  They all had the same plans, the same actions, the same attitudes, and even the same (or very similar) physical appearances.  It really gave lie to the "we are each a nation" line Sovereign put out in ME1.  If they were "each a nation"  why were there no differences of any note between them? 

An it was at the very end, when the StarKid tells Shepard that you could just take control of the Reapers, that was the final nail in the coffee: the Reapers are, and always had been just robots.  Sophisticed robots to be sure, with a manufacturing process as unusual as it was horrific, but still just robots.

... and so, the cool and intimidating villains are neutered in a 2-minute cutscene.

Wouldn't killing Starchild either deactivate the Reapers (and only the Reapers) or otherwise grant the Reapers independance -- ending their menace as a unified swarm in the process? There's your fourth ending, Bioware. I expect a check in the mail.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

And when they tore through the 2nd Fleet stationed around Earth like tissue paper? While simultaneously engaging the Turians? Was Hackett imagining that?

They were blindsided due to complacency.

And Reapers can't use FTL because...?

Because they can't turn as fast as Citadel dreadnaughts.
That is to say, they can turn faster even. If they amp their mass effect fields and effectively drop their barriers.
Either way, they can't use this tactic. They will get shot and die.

Out of desperation, or stupidity? Because neither of those are a good omen for your "winning conventionally" argument.

Out of false hope. Realising it's a trap and they need to rely on their own strength might just be enough to pull them out of this stupor before it's too late.

[xefiroEA]

Really, everyone becomes pretty stupid in the end.

Supposedly, the reason we're in a hurry and we rush to Earth is because once we attack Cronos station, the reapers will find and attack the Crucible. How exactly is Hackett reaching this conclusion?

We learn on Cronos that the reapers have in fact taken the Citadel, and are massing around Earth. This means the reapers are actually abandoning several systems to strengthen their position around Earth. This would seem like an ideal time to make some attacks of opportunity on those weakened systems, not rush the fleet headlong into the biggest mass of enemies. You can find resources, ships, people, spend more time on the Crucible working out what it does, and weaken them overall at little cost to the fleet.

If the Reapers do try to both attack the Crucible and protect the Citadel, they'll either be sending a small force you can wipe out at relatively little cost, or they'll be splitting their forces, making it that much easier for you to dock the Crucible by bypassing their forces entirely.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

At what cost? Attrition seems to be going very much against them.

Ships can be rebuilt. Reapers can't. Ever.

More armchair admirals. Man, if only the Turians read the codex!

Yes if only the Turians had read the codex that talks of them killing Reapers.
Wait, what?

There isn't. Deal with it.

There is. There are. Multiple ways.

[BigGuy28]

Because it's a cut scene and if I learned anything from playing the series it's Shepard becomes a complete moron in cut scenes 90% of the time.

[lordnyx1]

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Sovereign seemed pretty sentient to me... Harbinger too.

At the time, I thought so too. 

Then, in ME3 we see hundreds, thousands even, of Reapers all marching in lockstep.  They all had the same plans, the same actions, the same attitudes, and even the same (or very similar) physical appearances.  It really gave lie to the "we are each a nation" line Sovereign put out in ME1.  If they were "each a nation"  why were there no differences of any note between them? 

An it was at the very end, when the StarKid tells Shepard that you could just take control of the Reapers, that was the final nail in the coffee: the Reapers are, and always had been just robots.  Sophisticed robots to be sure, with a manufacturing process as unusual as it was horrific, but still just robots.

And how many reapers did we see past the outer shell? The squid could just have been the creator species form that the reapers have been copying since the cycles began.

[MsKlaussen]

What Shepard lacked was Jeff Goldblum.

</discussion>

[a.m.p]

MisterJB wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Because they were all convinced into putting their faith into the magic Reaper off button instead of facing reality.

Ironically, you are the one who's not facing reality.
It
was said time and time and time again by the best military minds of the
ME universe that the Reapers simply can't be defeated
conventionally. We have yet to see a single Capital Ship destroyed by
conventional means and no Sovereign doesn't count, Shepard had to
destroy its avatar. Before that, it was pushing two fleets against the
ropes alone.

We aren't stupid, we get that the design decision (only since me3) was to make them unbeatable and then show us how unbeatable they are (which wasn't very convincing, by the way. Because we're having this discussion).
What we're saying is that there is in-universe lore that could be used to fight them but is never used. Some of it retconned, clumsily, so we don't get any ideas.

Now,
I don't want a million options. I want one. One perfectly logical option to refuse to go along with the plan of my enemy.
And as for the outcome of that option: could I please have that lore back, pick the option that my Shepard
would have picked - which is 'no', pay my price for it - which is
countless more dead than in any other outcome and have the ending to the
game that I have played for five years? (And the people who prefer their chosen ending to their game can keep that, no changes.)

And if I can't have that lore back - fine. Then I'm putting my faith in whatever plan C my trusted friend has come up with and the next cycle. Just give me a chance to contact someone so they tell her to put the fact that the crucible is a reaper trap into that time capsule of hers.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

They were blindsided due to complacency.

So complacent that they saw them coming on the long-range scanners and mobilized?

The Angry One wrote...
Because they can't turn as fast as Citadel dreadnaughts.

Of course they can turn faster. From Mass Effect 1:

"That ship, Sovereign? I don't know what you did down there, but it's moving - that thing just pulled a turn that would have sheared any of our ships in half."

Out of false hope. Realising it's a trap and they need to rely on their own strength might just be enough to pull them out of this stupor before it's too late.

Wishful thinking. Your chest hair can't win the war at that point; if conventional victory was an option, one of the other generals would have suggested it.

[Reptilian Rob]

This thread reeks of shame and butthurt.

[KingZayd]

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Sovereign seemed pretty sentient to me... Harbinger too.

At the time, I thought so too. 

Then, in ME3 we see hundreds, thousands even, of Reapers all marching in lockstep.  They all had the same plans, the same actions, the same attitudes, and even the same (or very similar) physical appearances.  It really gave lie to the "we are each a nation" line Sovereign put out in ME1.  If they were "each a nation"  why were there no differences of any note between them? 

An it was at the very end, when the StarKid tells Shepard that you could just take control of the Reapers, that was the final nail in the coffee: the Reapers are, and always had been just robots.  Sophisticed robots to be sure, with a manufacturing process as unusual as it was horrific, but still just robots.

armies have order. I imagine to an alien, all our armies would look the same (or very similar). We don't know how the reapers communicate. Harbinger and Sovereign seemed to have distinct personalities to me. The Rannoch Reaper did too.

"An it was at the very end, when the StarKid tells Shepard that you could just take control of the Reapers, "


How do you know the Starchild is telling the truth? Even if he is, you don't know the nature of the control, maybe it's indoctrination? That seems to be the popular way of controlling in this universe, particularly on his side of the war. TIM thought he could control the reapers, and what did he research? Indoctrination.

Modifié par KingZayd, 19 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[Peranor]

 I'm commander Shepard and I...Don't know...

[Zix13]

The Angry One wrote...

Don't forget: "So the Illusive Man was right!".

I mean, really? WHY WOULD YOU EVER SAY THAT!?
I facepalmed so hard when I heard that. Little did I know that wasn't even the worst of it.

That line.... was some incredibly ridiculous.... It made Kai Leng seem serious.

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Of course they can turn faster. From Mass Effect 1:

"That ship, Sovereign? I don't know what you did down there, but it's moving - that thing just pulled a turn that would have sheared any of our ships in half."

From ME3:
The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers,
which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the
Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their
concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.


While the reapers are turning several of them are shot down due to weak shields.
They are faster than dreadnaughts but not faster than dreadnaught cannons.

[General User]

NoUserNameHere wrote...
... and so, the cool and intimidating villains are neutered in a 2-minute cutscene.

Wouldn't killing Starchild either deactivate the Reapers (and only the Reapers) or otherwise grant the Reapers independance -- ending their menace as a unified swarm in the process? There's your fourth ending, Bioware. I expect a check in the mail.

Personally I don't even think having the Reapers turn out to really be just giant killbots extraordinaire is necessarily a bad way to go in the first place. 

I like the idea of baddies that seem oh, so unbeatable at first, but once you get a good look at 'em, they ain't exactly all they made themselves out to be.  Cut 'em down to size, take a little wind out of their sails, as it were.

Modifié par General User, 19 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[Creston918]

It's okay, OP. You just "don't get it."

It's very 'high-level', you see?

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Of course they can turn faster. From Mass Effect 1:

"That ship, Sovereign? I don't know what you did down there, but it's moving - that thing just pulled a turn that would have sheared any of our ships in half."

From ME3:
The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers,
which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the
Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their
concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.


While the reapers are turning several of them are shot down due to weak shields.
They are faster than dreadnaughts but not faster than dreadnaught cannons.

Quote the rest:

"The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat. "

No strategy the races come up with will be viable for long. And they need supply lines to fix and resupply their ships/troops, while the Reapers don't.

[Siansonea]

Not going to defend the ending, but Shepard is stupid throughout the game, at least the last two games. I mean, working for CERBERUS? Ugh, last resort, if at all. But Shepard doesn't even explore any other avenues, or verify anything that the Illusive Man says before agreeing to work for him. Freedom's Progress is a compelling argument that the Collectors are working with the Reapers, but NOT a compelling argument that they are the most imminent threat related to the Reapers. And sure enough, in ME3, it's clear that the whole Collector thing was a huge tangent. What's more important, the lone baby Reaper being gestated on some station or the hordes of adult Reapers making tracks for the galactic rapid transit system?

Oh, and then there's Shepard's famous exchange with Dr. Amanda Kenson:

Shepard: "You found a Reaper artifact? How are you not Indoctrinated?!"
Kenson: "We took precautions."
Shepard: "Whew! Good thing!"

::player facepalm::

And there are many other examples of ShepDerp throughout the series, though it seems they're heavily concentrated in the second installment. Maybe it takes awhile to completely wake up from being dead.

[General User]

KingZayd wrote...
armies have order. I imagine to an alien, all our armies would look the same (or very similar).

The Reaper's claim was to be a nation.  Not an army or armies.

KingZayd wrote...
We don't know how the reapers communicate. Harbinger and Sovereign seemed to have distinct personalities to me. The Rannoch Reaper did too.

Shades of grey.   Variations on a theme.  Differences surely, but nothing to write home about

KingZayd wrote...
How do you know the Starchild is telling the truth? Even if he is, you don't know the nature of the control, maybe it's indoctrination? That seems to be the popular way of controlling in this universe, particularly on his side of the war. TIM thought he could control the reapers, and what did he research? Indoctrination.

I will not address the Indoctrination Theory or anything similar.

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Of course they can turn faster. From Mass Effect 1:

"That ship, Sovereign? I don't know what you did down there, but it's moving - that thing just pulled a turn that would have sheared any of our ships in half."

From ME3:
The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers,
which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the
Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their
concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.


While the reapers are turning several of them are shot down due to weak shields.
They are faster than dreadnaughts but not faster than dreadnaught cannons.

Quote the rest:

"The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat. "

No strategy the races come up with will be viable for long. And they need supply lines to fix and resupply their ships/troops, while the Reapers don't.

I'm not even bringing up the FTL ramming, I'll instead bring up the forgotten fact that the ciradel controls the relay network. Take the citadel. Use the reapers' own strategy against them - shut them in clusters, clear clusters with your entire fleet one by one, so they don't outnumber you. Use the potential of the lore, don't avoid it like the plague.

Modifié par a.m.p, 19 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[MisterJB]

[quote] The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst is nonsensical, as is it's solution. It's not much of a stretch.
[/quote]
It's really not a bad solution from a practical POV. The Catalyst has decided that synthetics will, invariably, utterly destroy organics and stop any civilization to rise again.
Any semblance of life is better than none thus, the Reapers preserve organics. And,they can't simply destroy Synthetics because, given enough time, organics would creates AIs too strong for the Reapers to deal with.

[quote] The Catalyst can't give a single example to back up it's claims. It's age is not good enough.[/quote]
So, it's better to just assume that it has created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist?
Basically, you didn't like the ending and are choosing to reject everything about it.

[quote]Sure, if the Quarians give them no other option.[/quote]
Legion admits that the only reason the geth did not pursue the fleeing quarians was because they couldn't perceive the consequences.
What if they, eventually, decide that there will be no consequences? For what reason will they not destroy the quarians?
You can say that this is a risk worth taking. The Catalyst says that it is not.
And hey, maybe Synthesis will give the geth the ability to judge these decisions on moral ground thus, making it more likely that they will not destroy the quarians simply because they would feel bad about it.

[quote]However it should be pointed out that, again, this is the Reaper's fault. If they hadn't given the Geth the upgrade, Legion wouldn't have been able to subvert it and distribute it to all free Geth, and hey would have been destroyed.

Like the Zha'till, the ones responsible for organics being annihilated by synthetics are... the Reapers.[/quote]
I repet my hypothesis that the quarians migth just not be numerous enough to form a Reaper. Thus, better to destroy them than allow them to threaten the ascension of the other species.
From the Reaper's POV, anyway.


[quote]That the survival of sentient organic life is not an issue. As long as a puddle of primordial soup remains on a single world, the Catalyst's objective is successful.[/quote]
Yes. Again, your point being?
The Catalyst should allow Synthetics to destroy advanced civilizations just because a couple of cows will not he harmed?

[quote]
It's still hypocrisy at best.[/quote]
No, it's not. It's pragmatism. The good of the many (the other species and the next cycles) comes before the good of the few (the quarians).

[quote]
It is. Reapers aren't even free.[/quote]
They are alive. Submission IS better than extinction.
You acuse those who choose Synthesis of forcing their will on the rest of the galaxy but you would do the same. At least, with Synthesis, we know for a fact that life continues.

[quote]
That's not what you said, you said the Catalyst was undefiable due to being a god, a god is not obligated to present you with choices you like.[/quote]
I said that you can't defy the logic of a god because it is simply much more wise than you. That doesn't mean if god wants you to die, you should just do it.

[quote]
a god is not obligated to present you with choices you like.[/quote]
Then, maybe Shepard should be thankfull the Catalyst is a sympathetic god who looks out for organics


[quote]
No, it's bad because.. it's bad. [/quote]
Let's assume that Synthesis will allow for organics to become immortal; we no longer need to eat or sleep, we can do that just for pleasure; while it allows the synthetics to feel empathy. It does this without sacrificing individuality, everyone is still very much himself except for the fact that we all share these characteristics now. This is as valid an interpretation as any other.
What is bad about this?

[quote]
You assume this based on no evidence, in spite of a ton of evidence to the contrary such as the Reapers, their creations, the Zha'till, Saren and so on.
[/quote]
If the Catalyst wanted, it could have just let Shepard bleed to death, the Reapers destroy the Catalyst, we lose, the Cycle continues.
Obviously, it wants something from Shepard and, obviously, the Catalyst is benevolent since it allows organics to go on living as Reapers rather than order them to destroy the galaxy.
Sure, it's a risk but the possible benefits of a symbiotic relationship with the Reapers are simply too good to ignore.
Imagine their technology and power allied with organic creativity! The wonders we could create! 

[quote]
We don't know do we? Also, it's a horrific imposition to make on the trillions of inhabitants of the galaxy.
You've just turned everyone and everything into a Reaper. Made in their image, for no logical benefit.
[/quote]
Not sure what game are you playing because I didn't see any Reapers. I saw Joker and EDI, who still acted very much like themselves.
No indocrination, no collective mind, nothing.

[Nightwriter]

OP doesn't even mention that Shepard fails to ask the Catalyst why he is taking vent kid's form.

Shepard should have reacted to this. Big time. Only way the Catalyst could know the vent kid's form is to read it from Shepard's mind. Shepard should deduce this immediately, and it should inspire questions, if not outright suspicion. Anything that can read your mind might be able to influence it, too. It might be able to deceive you. And as soon as it announces that it is the commander of the Reapers, the creator of the cycle, and thus probably the founder of indoctrination, the caution should really kick into gear.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 avril 2012 - 10:22 .