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Why the DA2 story is Not Important for DA3


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#1
Dakota Strider

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First of all, there will be some SPOILERS in this.  Hard to avoid.  If you have not yet played Dragon Age 2, or Dragon Age Origins, you might learn something here.  It would be nice if they started a spot in the forum, where we could just discuss what we want to see, or not see in Dragon Age 3, so we could make references to previous games without SPOILing it.

Second, this is intended to be controversial, as I do know that there are some that like DA2 more than DAO.  However, this is not a comparison of story style, or game mechanics.  This is a thought of one outsider's view of the Dragon Age World, which all we really know about is the continent of Thedas, and the events we have seen in the first two games.  I have stated before, that although I found more flaws that bothered me with DA2, than I have with DAO, I still like DA2.  So, it would be unfair to characterize me as a DA2 hater.

Finally, I have not read any of the novels, or comic books, or watched any other content except for DAO, DA2, and their official DLC's.   So from my perspective, anything outside of that is not being considered canon.

My premise is, that the story of DA2, which is basically the rise of the Champion, culminating in the battle with the Templars and the Circle, is not important  essential in the big scheme of things, in the world of DA.  It would actually be wrong to say the Champion was not important.  He (and excuse me for just using the masculine pronoun, it is not by bias, just ease of use, and the perspective I played) proved to be an important resident, and citizen of the city of Kirkwall, which is not a totally insignificant thing.   And as a skilled adventurer, he and his companions did some things that were obviously exceptional, compared to what the average person in Kirkwall could have, or even chosen to do.

There are several major plotlines that we know of that are currently moving to a head in Thedas.  Some of them were touched on in DA2, and through the Champion, we as a player, are allowed to see a different perspective, or to learn of for the first time.  I think this is the most important aspect of the story of DA2.

The Qunari threat, was already foreshadowed in DAO.  Sten gave us a good source for Qunari viewpoints, and the DAO codex was very informative about Qunari history, at least in the war against Tevinter.  In DA2, through Hawke, we get to see the Arishok, who was certainly more hostile than Sten, and much more open in explaining Qunari disgust with those that do not follow the Qun.  I think it was already hinted in DAO, that the Qunari may attempt to conquer parts of Thedas again.  In DA2, this seems to be even more of a certainty, although I do not believe the events of DA2 can be claimed to be the cause of that happening. However, it gives the player a very good idea of why the Qunari could soon be on the warpath.  It also gives the player reason to either sympathize with the Qunari, or to become more resolute in their opposition of them.   I do not believe that when (or if) the war comes, that the events of Kirkwall will be pointed at, as the reason the war starts.  It will not be a rallying cry of the Qunari, much like the Alamo or Pearl Harbor in American history.  The war will come, sooner or later, because the Qunari feels that the Qun compells them to remove the chaos of world around them.  They will come when they are ready, and not because of outside events.

The second major issue that the player first experienced in DAO, and then witnessed in DA2, was the struggle of the Chantry and the Circle.  In DAO, the dangers of unchecked mages was demonstrated, as well as showing how inhumane some of the efforts to control mages had become.  This was obviously, the essential part of the DA2 story,   And DA2 should be congratulad to make sure the player saw both sides of the struggle at an even more personal level, throughout the game.  However, once again, the trouble with the Chantry/Templars and the Circle, was not isolated in just Kirkwall.  The sparks from this growing conflict, I believe were flying thoughout the continent.  It could be argued, according to DA2 storyline logic, that the only reason a spark caught fire in Kirkwall first, was because of an ancient lyrium artifact, that drove Knight Commander Meredith over the edge.  The fire was going to catch fire somewhere soon, regardless.  The proof is how quickly Circle uprisings apparently occurred almost simultaneously, throughout the land.  Granted that Kirkwall is the place where someone made a magical thermonuclear device small enough to smuggle into the Chantry and blow it up, but I do not believe that such a huge event was needed to start the certain conflict.  It just sped it up a bit, and once more I would suggest, it may not have even happened if Meredith was not having a mind meld with her shiney new lyrium sword. 

A third issue, that most of us believe will be a major plot theme in DA3, is the Flemeth / Morrigan and the Ancient Gods theme that was first introduced in DAO.  What will happen there is still mostly a mystery.  It is my belief, it was this plotline that the writers of DAO were ultimately aiming at.  DA2 was a good interlude, to give the old god child (which most of us assumes exists) a chance to mature enough to become a participant in DA3 (or 4).  There really was no hint of this at all in DA2, except two instances I can think of.  First, was the appearance of Flemeth to get the Hawkes to Kirkwall, which was basically done to show us that Flemeth still lived, and that she was predicting dark times ahead.  But seriously, do you believe someone as powerful and as insightful as Flemeth, would allow her fate to be determined by whether or not a band of refugees made their way across an ocean, and then chose to keep their promise to deliver a piece of jewelry?  Just me being skeptical, but I bet she had a back up plan.  The second reference to this plotline, was when Cassandra and Leliana spoke about the Warden vanishing.  So, in this regard, DA2 was not essential to the overall plotline, although what happened in DAO was. 

The final possible plotline that we saw hints of in DA2, that may be occurring is they mystery of what the Wardens were doing, running through Kirkwall during the Qunari attack.  But, since DA2 only showed us that the Wardens were busy, and did not explain why, it can not be said that the story of DA2 can be considered important for this plot line.  It was a good way to start speculation, and to foreshadow upcoming events, and for that, it was good to see it.  But, we knew that there were larger contingents of Wardens from DAO, and we learned much more about them there.  Once again, DA2 story not important in this plotline.

Other issues in Thedas have been touched on, in both games.  Places like Tevinter, Orlais and Antiva do not seem to be havens of peace and tolerance.  And there is still a huge world out there, that noone seems to know about, outside of the current continent.  

We have Cassandra and the Seekers, throughout DA2, hinting that whatever Hawke did, was the cause of all the upcoming trouble.  But, I think Varric gave a pretty good defense, to show that Hawke and his companions were little more than one of the many sparks that were going to sooner or later catch fire in Thedas.  The events that happened in DA2, were certainly important for Kirkwall, and the immediate surrounding area.  But I contend that nothing that happened there, was the pivotal event that caused whatever happens in Thedas next.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 19 avril 2012 - 07:16 .


#2
Dakota Strider

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Was reading a different forum last night about the Dragon Age 2 game, and one commenter made a claim I had not heard before. However, since I have not been to the forums for quite some time, it may have been brought up in previous threads. But it does cast doubt on the DA2 story does not matter case I made above.

To sum it up; As Varric is being interrogated by Cassandra, and telling the story of the Champion, he is lying the entire time. This gives the writers of DA3 the opportunity to dismiss anything that happened in DA2 as exaggeration or total fiction.

This could reinforce my argument, that nothing in DA2 matters. Or it could invalidate it, because the events at Kirkwall do matter, but we never learned the true story of what happened there.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 20 avril 2012 - 03:57 .


#3
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Uhm, Allthough I agree that Varric "spiced up" the Hawke story, I do believe that s/he really exists in Thedas.

The concequenses that came out of it are to big to be ignored. Hawke as a person is real and so are the actions regarding the Arishok en the fact Hawke became the champion (depending on the playthrough of course). It wasn't a one-man action; Hawke had his companions that helped and people who were favorable which helped of course.

Varric made Hawke the hero (and some kind of myth) and in a conversation between the two of them he explains what made him do this.

I do not believe that the events in DA2 will be dismissed as complete fiction or total exaggeration because the Seekers would not investigate it so thoroughly if it was just that right?

#4
the_one_54321

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Varric made up "The Champion..." I like that. A lot.
:happy:

#5
brushyourteeth

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I agree with the OP in that
1. Even without Hawke or Anders, the Kirkwall mages would still have rebelled, and
2. These events are established as canon in "Asunder"

so, technically we didn't even need DAII as a setup for DAIII.
Had fun playing it though. :) Without it we'd all be saying "I want to know more about Kirkwall! What actually happened in Kirkwall?!"

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 20 avril 2012 - 05:08 .


#6
Dakota Strider

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Uhm, Allthough I agree that Varric "spiced up" the Hawke story, I do believe that s/he really exists in Thedas.

The concequenses that came out of it are to big to be ignored. Hawke as a person is real and so are the actions regarding the Arishok en the fact Hawke became the champion (depending on the playthrough of course). It wasn't a one-man action; Hawke had his companions that helped and people who were favorable which helped of course.

Varric made Hawke the hero (and some kind of myth) and in a conversation between the two of them he explains what made him do this.

I do not believe that the events in DA2 will be dismissed as complete fiction or total exaggeration because the Seekers would not investigate it so thoroughly if it was just that right?


My mistake if I implied I did not think the Champion existed.  I believe Hawke did, and was an important for what happened in Kirkwall.  My contention is, that what he/she did in DA2, was not important in regard to what will happen in DA3 or future chapters. 

And regarding Hawke and the Arishok/Qunari.  Even if you played it so that you turned over the relic thief to the Arishok, and the Qunari left without you killing their leader, I believe war with the Qunari could not be averted.  And if you killed the Arishok, it would not speed up the upcoming war.  The Qunari are not the type that are rushed into anything, based on the actions of others.  They are most certainly preparing for a war, and they will launch it when it suits them best.  No actions in Kirkwall, or other nations of Thedas will make them strike before they are ready.

Now my last speculation about the Champion being a complete myth, based on how Varric retold it; that is probably being a bit too extreme, I admit.  However, it does give the Bioware writers a story devise to legitimately dismiss parts of the DA2 story, that they do not wish to follow in DA3.   Remember the sequence when Varric was telling Cassandra how he stormed his brother's house all alone, like he was Clint Eastwood, and she finally called BS on him?  Who is to say, how many times Varric got away with pulling the wool over the Seeker's eyes entirely, and not get caught?  

Just saying, if they use that plot device in DA3, you heard it the conspiracy theory here first.  Image IPB

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 20 avril 2012 - 07:27 .


#7
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Dakota Strider wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Uhm, Allthough I agree that Varric "spiced up" the Hawke story, I do believe that s/he really exists in Thedas.

The concequenses that came out of it are to big to be ignored. Hawke as a person is real and so are the actions regarding the Arishok en the fact Hawke became the champion (depending on the playthrough of course). It wasn't a one-man action; Hawke had his companions that helped and people who were favorable which helped of course.

Varric made Hawke the hero (and some kind of myth) and in a conversation between the two of them he explains what made him do this.

I do not believe that the events in DA2 will be dismissed as complete fiction or total exaggeration because the Seekers would not investigate it so thoroughly if it was just that right?


My mistake if I implied I did not think the Champion existed.  I believe Hawke did, and was an important for what happened in Kirkwall.  My contention is, that what he/she did in DA2, was not important in regard to what will happen in DA3 or future chapters. 

And regarding Hawke and the Arishok/Qunari.  Even if you played it so that you turned over the relic thief to the Arishok, and the Qunari left without you killing their leader, I believe war with the Qunari could not be averted.  And if you killed the Arishok, it would not speed up the upcoming war.  The Qunari are not the type that are rushed into anything, based on the actions of others.  They are most certainly preparing for a war, and they will launch it when it suits them best.  No actions in Kirkwall, or other nations of Thedas will make them strike before they are ready.

Now my last speculation about the Champion being a complete myth, based on how Varric retold it; that is probably being a bit too extreme, I admit.  However, it does give the Bioware writers a story devise to legitimately dismiss parts of the DA2 story, that they do not wish to follow in DA3.   Remember the sequence when Varric was telling Cassandra how he stormed his brother's house all alone, like he was Clint Eastwood, and she finally called BS on him?  Who is to say, how many times Varric got away with pulling the wool over the Seeker's eyes entirely, and not get caught?  

Just saying, if they use that plot device in DA3, you heard it the conspiracy theory here first.  Image IPB


Kirkwall being the stage for DA2 and Hawke being the hero and the story being told by Varric I find a brilliant plot for a game.

Thoughout the game, like I mentioned above, there are references to the fact that everything must not be taken very seriously when Varric tells the story.

Bioware has a major plotline for the dragon age, the 100 year period, ready I think. Kirkwall is the place where the mage/templar conflict that started in DAO in Ferelden comes to a climax and the whole thing explodes and expands all over Thedas. DA3 will be in more places in Thedas to adress that plotline. "Saving the world from itself" right? Image IPB

#8
the_one_54321

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Out of curiosity, how does one pronounce "sjpelkessjpler?"

#9
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the_one_54321 wrote...

Out of curiosity, how does one pronounce "sjpelkessjpler?"


Did you try Image IPB? Depends on your native language. Curious what brought that question up.

#10
the_one_54321

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Because I know of some Scandinavian and northern European languages that apply specific pronunciations to consonants and consonant combinations such as "j" and "ch."

edit;
And your profile says you're from the Netherlands! So there's reason to believe that there might actually be a correct way to pronounce that odd jumble of letters.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 20 avril 2012 - 08:14 .


#11
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the_one_54321 wrote...

Because I know of some Scandinavian and northern European languages that apply specific pronunciations to consonants and consonant combinations such as "j" and "ch."


Haha, even the "ch" as I would proncounce it is different in several North European countries. You would have to pronounce it as in a dutch "ch". Still curious what brought up that question!

#12
the_one_54321

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Because I know of some Scandinavian and northern European languages that apply specific pronunciations to consonants and consonant combinations such as "j" and "ch."

Haha, even the "ch" as I would proncounce it is different in several North European countries. You would have to pronounce it as in a dutch "ch". Still curious what brought up that question!

Becaus the name looks like someone threw a bunch of consonants with a few e's at the computer screen, and I'm wondering if there is actually a properly way to say it. Because I wonder things like that.

#13
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Tried to send you a message The_one_54321 but cannot do that. If you want the translation of the name you will have to send me one.

Haven't laughed like that for a few days Image IPB. That a name could raise questions............................................

Modifié par sjpelkessjpeler, 20 avril 2012 - 09:44 .


#14
g99

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Dakota Strider wrote...
A third issue, that most of us believe will be a major plot theme in DA3, is the Flemeth / Morrigan and the Ancient Gods theme that was first introduced in DAO. What will happen there is still mostly a mystery. It is my belief, it was this plotline that the writers of DAO were ultimately aiming at. DA2 was a good interlude, to give the old god child (which most of us assumes exists) a chance to mature enough to become a participant in DA3 (or 4). There really was no hint of this at all in DA2, except two instances I can think of. First, was the appearance of Flemeth to get the Hawkes to Kirkwall, which was basically done to show us that Flemeth still lived, and that she was predicting dark times ahead. But seriously, do you believe someone as powerful and as insightful as Flemeth, would allow her fate to be determined by whether or not a band of refugees made their way across an ocean, and then chose to keep their promise to deliver a piece of jewelry? Just me being skeptical, but I bet she had a back up plan. The second reference to this plotline, was when Cassandra and Leliana spoke about the Warden vanishing. So, in this regard, DA2 was not essential to the overall plotline, although what happened in DAO was.


I can't agree. Plot may be based at some point in Morrigan and Flemeth fight, but I'm sure it is not connected with the child (this can only be an option triggered by the designation to sleep with Morrigan ). It is possible during DA:Origins not to conceive the child so there is no base for certain that the boy is alive. I don't remember to be able to ask Morrigan about the child during Witchhunt with a Warden that declined the "sleep with me to live" offer.
So the only plot is the fact Morrigan and Flemeth were at some point in a conflict how to use the Old God essence. That might not end up in there hands (self-sacrifice ending).

Modifié par g99, 20 avril 2012 - 09:20 .


#15
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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DA 2? What is this DA 2?

{It's the Imperial Conditioning}

#16
Dakota Strider

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g99 wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...
A third issue, that most of us believe will be a major plot theme in DA3, is the Flemeth / Morrigan and the Ancient Gods theme that was first introduced in DAO. What will happen there is still mostly a mystery. It is my belief, it was this plotline that the writers of DAO were ultimately aiming at. DA2 was a good interlude, to give the old god child (which most of us assumes exists) a chance to mature enough to become a participant in DA3 (or 4). There really was no hint of this at all in DA2, except two instances I can think of. First, was the appearance of Flemeth to get the Hawkes to Kirkwall, which was basically done to show us that Flemeth still lived, and that she was predicting dark times ahead. But seriously, do you believe someone as powerful and as insightful as Flemeth, would allow her fate to be determined by whether or not a band of refugees made their way across an ocean, and then chose to keep their promise to deliver a piece of jewelry? Just me being skeptical, but I bet she had a back up plan. The second reference to this plotline, was when Cassandra and Leliana spoke about the Warden vanishing. So, in this regard, DA2 was not essential to the overall plotline, although what happened in DAO was.


I can't agree. Plot may be based at some point in Morrigan and Flemeth fight, but I'm sure it is not connected with the child (this can only be an option triggered by the designation to sleep with Morrigan ). It is possible during DA:Origins not to conceive the child so there is no base for certain that the boy is alive. I don't remember to be able to ask Morrigan about the child during Witchhunt with a Warden that declined the "sleep with me to live" offer.
So the only plot is the fact Morrigan and Flemeth were at some point in a conflict how to use the Old God essence. That might not end up in there hands (self-sacrifice ending).


I have no proof,  just past experiences of Bioware plotlines.  And I think, even if no Warden slept with Morrigan the night before the battle (which was a way to also save the Warden's life), there had to be a backup plan to "capture" the old god essense at the death of the Arch Demon.  That seems to be way too important of a thing, for them to just abandon, simply on the whim of a player.    Much in the same way, I do not believe Flemeth "needed" Hawke to deliver her amulet to the top of the mountain outside of Kirkwall, I also do not believe it was absolutely necessary for Morrigan to sleep with one of the Warden's the night before, to get an Old God conception.  "Another way Always another way."  (Matrix Reloaded reference)

#17
Huntress

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OP:
it would be nice if people read David gaider post, DA3 is AFTER DA2 sad but true and is important/essencial because in DA2 the mage-templar war started da3 is about mage-templar war..
The mayority of players know DA3 is templars vs mages.. if you want to lie to yourself thats ok, I don't have a problem with that go a head. Morrigan and Flemth probably appear in da3 but I don't think/havent heard they are coming as companions.

Maybe Flemth is not the only one who can turn into a dragon, just because none other ..."thing" has appear doesn't mean it doesn't exit, nobody knows why dragons are coming back for starters.

Bioware had said: da3 will takes us to new places, orlais and tevinter were mentioned in this video from last year:

Modifié par Huntress, 20 avril 2012 - 09:40 .


#18
Dakota Strider

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Huntress wrote...

OP:
it would be nice if people read David gaider post, DA3 is AFTER DA2 sad but true and is important/essencial because in DA2 the mage-templar war started da3 is about mage-templar war..
The mayority of players know DA3 is templars vs mages.. if you want to lie to yourself thats ok, I don't have a problem with that go a head. Morrigan and Flemth probably appear in da3 but I don't think/havent heard they are coming as companions.

Maybe Flemth is not the only one who can turn into a dragon, just because none other ..."thing" has appear doesn't mean it doesn't exit, nobody knows why dragons are coming back for starters.

Bioware had said: da3 will takes us to new places, orlais and tevinter were mentioned in this video from last year:


I never said that the events in DA2, do not precede DA3.  And I will agree that the actual start of the mage / templar war can be traced to a certain mage who wore feathers, planting a small device made out of rock scrapings inside the cathedral, that blew it sky high.   However, "if" the player actually could have had a choice in the matter, and prevented the feather mage from planting this magic nuclear bomb, and the war had not started right at that moment, I believe it would have started elsewhere.   The tensions between mages and the chantry was not isolated in Kirkwall, it was going to happen.  Just like most wars in our history, when tensions are high, one little thing will set it off.  The incident that is the final straw is always what is remembered, but the actual cause was building up long before that remembered event.   Take World War I for example,  most have heard that Duke Ferdinand being assassinated was the reason for the war.  But if there was not distrust and hatred between countries before this, that event would not have sparked the war.  But since these tensions and hatreds did exist between countries, anything could have caused it.   The same with the mages and templars starting the fight in Kirkwall...it was going to happen somewhere soon anyways, it was not because the Chantry in Kirkwall treated mages very differently than they did across the rest of the lands with a Chantry.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 20 avril 2012 - 10:38 .


#19
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As an addition to my previous post, I have read somewhere (sorry do not recall) that BW has a base storyline and goes from there; make it up as the story progresses.

And for you last reply OP; why do you think the quest was called "The last straw"? Isn't that allready the answer to the question seen on a bigger scale (meaning Thedas)?

#20
Dakota Strider

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

As an addition to my previous post, I have read somewhere (sorry do not recall) that BW has a base storyline and goes from there; make it up as the story progresses.


Well, I think the writers of DAO had a plan in place, and the epilogues did allude to some of it.  However, I have heard that writers that had major input to DAO were not present for DA2, so it would not be a total shock if the plan changed.  Too bad if that is so.

And for you last reply OP; why do you think the quest was called "The last straw"? Isn't that allready the answer to the question seen on a bigger scale (meaning Thedas)?


It was my opinion, "The Last Straw" only referred to the end of the DA2 story in Kirkwall.  If Chantries & Circles across Thedas were not also close to a breaking point at this time, "The Last Straw", in Kirkwall would not have caused a chain reaction of rebellion/uprising/revolts throughout the land.  But it was from what I had I had gathered about how the Chantry controlled the Circle, from DAO, I was not surprised at all, that the Circles were close to trying to break free every where.   Maybe things got hastened a bit in Kirkwall because of one crazy possessed feather mage, and a certain lyrium artifact turned into a sword being at the same place, at the same time.  But this war was going to happen soon, regardless if it started at Kirkwall or not.

As I said in the OP, DA2 was important in this, to show the player close up, all the friction and the problems between mages and the templars.  The war was going to happen in the upcoming chapter, but now people that played DA2 will have a much better understanding of why these two factions are at odds with each other.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 20 avril 2012 - 11:08 .


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As you yourself stated in your OP, things that are under a lot of tension need just a little spark to ignite. You took an example from the real world. I know Kirkwall is fiction but as you say yourself the thing that happened in Kirkwall (chantry you know; do not want to spoil here) was the last straw that set the world on fire. So that's why I say that it applies to all Thedas not just Kirkwall. The spark/last straw happened there.

#22
Dakota Strider

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

As you yourself stated in your OP, things that are under a lot of tension need just a little spark to ignite. You took an example from the real world. I know Kirkwall is fiction but as you say yourself the thing that happened in Kirkwall (chantry you know; do not want to spoil here) was the last straw that set the world on fire. So that's why I say that it applies to all Thedas not just Kirkwall. The spark/last straw happened there.


I think the two of us are trying to split hairs here.  We will both agree, that when the histories are written, the war of Templars vs Mages started with that event in Kirkwall  (much like historians point to the Duke Ferdinand assassination as the start of WW1).    The point I am trying to make, that even if this one particular event did not happen, in this particular spot on the map, something was going to happen, somewhere, that was going to start this war.  In my opinion, this war was unstoppable.  It happened in DA2 with the Champion, so that the player could experience it.   And it was good that we got to experience it.  But if it was not Hawke at the center of the beginning...it would have been some other person.

#23
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Yep, you're right. BW just made Kirkwall "the place to be". And Hawke was there because we needed a protagonist right?

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Modifié par sjpelkessjpeler, 21 avril 2012 - 12:26 .


#24
Dakota Strider

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All is good. Always enjoy a good debate, where both sides are civil.

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Dakota Strider wrote...

All is good. Always enjoy a good debate, where both sides are civil.


We dutch, especially the southern ones are allways civil sir Image IPB.