150 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

android654 wrote...
 Unfortunately for BW, TW2 has a better reputation by word of mouth than all the bought reviews could provide.

Word of mouth is the best ad there is. 

[android654]

Skelter192 wrote...

android654 wrote...
 Unfortunately for BW, TW2 has a better reputation by word of mouth than all the bought reviews could provide.

Word of mouth is the best ad there is. 

As sad as it sounds, I think it's dead. Whether it's games, movies, books or music, people who make things because they love those things are an endangered species. I blame people who like Scary Movie, Madden, Kanye West, Ted Nuggent, Kim Kardashian, and Danielle Stelle novels.

Modifié par android654, 20 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[deuce985]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

deuce985 wrote...
 I think Bioware is far better at character development, story and interactions.

Lol no. Not a single Bioware game I've played comes even close to having a story that I find as complex, intricate, intelligent and mature as TW2 (nor does it have the amount of plotholes you suggest. I can only think of one that is glaring). Nor has any of their games ever had such an impressive cast of characters as that of TW2.
Especially not with ME2 or recent debacles like DA2 and ME3.

We'll have to agree to disagree there.

Witcher's different paths and how you can change settings is awesome. However, their plot holes, character development and interactions are not that great, IMO.

I don't care about any character in the Witcher. You don't get enough interaction with them to care about anyone. Even Trish...who was all in Witcher 1. I still didn't care about her in Witcher 2. The romance edge in that game feels completely awkward too. It's almost like watching a X-rated movie. You don't build a relationship up...you just decide to have sex with anyone in sight. Even if you're romancing Trish. Having rated R sex scenes is fine...just not the way they do them in Witcher. They seem completely out of place and they don't place them in good moments. It's almost like a mini-game of who you can slam at the wrong moments. It's childish.

Witcher's story tries to tell a mature story but it ends up immature, IMO. They have so many awkward moments in that game. The game has some really inconsistent writing and major plot holes too. I'm not saying it's bad...just not better than Bioware games. Some parts in the story ar excellent. That's something I want Witcher 3 to polish more. If they do that, then I'd agree...they would crush anything Bioware does.

Now if you want to talk about exploration, combat, or the RPG elements...yea. I think they do most of that better than Bioware games.

Modifié par deuce985, 20 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[Chromie]

android654 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

android654 wrote...
 Unfortunately for BW, TW2 has a better reputation by word of mouth than all the bought reviews could provide.

Word of mouth is the best ad there is. 

As sad as it sounds, I think it's dead. Whether it's games, movies, books or music, people who make things because they love those things are an endangered species. I blame people who like Scary Movie, Madden, Kanye West, Ted Nuggent, Kim Kardashian, and Danielle Stelle novels.

Yea but come on games are a totally different story. Just look at Minecraft no marketing whatsoever yet everyone know what it was and Notch sold millions before it was officially out. Witcher 1 sold 1.5 millions alone and it's still not well know but Witcher 2 has definitely brought some attention to it. 

deuce985 wrote...


Witcher's different paths and how you can change settings is awesome. However, their plot holes, character development and interactions are not that great, IMO.

 

There are not many plotholes (honestly none come to mind this second) and nowhere near as bad as in Bioware games.

Meredith knows Hawke is a Mage yet for some reason prior to that point noone else did?
Hawke can snitch to a Templar about Anders plans and nothing happens.
Joker abandone Shepard and his crew.
EDI didn't die when you chose destroy ending.
I can go on and on.

I feel the character development is strong. The way you Iorveth change through out the whole game. You learn he isn't some blind racist terrorist who hates anyone and everyone who is human. We see a man who is willing to do what needs to be done for the good of his people.

Each character has so much detail and stuff going on and like KoP said no melodrama bull**** that Bioware just loves to use. Merrill feels lonely so she pals around with a demon since her friends dissappeared, Jack feels incredibily forced and juvenile and most of all Anders was turned from an awesome sarcastic mage to a whiny girl who didn't believe in Mages turning to blood magic.

deuce985 wrote...
I don't care about any character in the Witcher. You don't get enough interaction with them to care about anyone. Even Trish...who was all in Witcher 1. I still didn't care about her in Witcher 2. The romance edge in that game feels completely awkward too. It's almost like watching a X-rated movie. You don't build a relationship up...you just decide to have sex with anyone in sight. Even if you're romancing Trish. Having rated R sex scenes is fine...just not the way they do them in Witcher. They seem completely out of place and they don't place them in good moments. It's almost like a mini-game of who you can slam at the wrong moments. It's childish. 

 

/facepalm

Romances are terrible in Bioware games. Just horrible I wish they would stop with them or make them more realisitic.

Triss and Geralt already have a established history. They are, for lack of a better term, just **** buddies it gets serious but Geralt and Triss aren't in an exclusive realationship. I don't see how it's completely out of place. Witcher 1 sure but Witcher 2? CDProjekt changed a lot including how sex was handled. What I find childish is Isabella riding on top yet she has clothes on. What I find worse is everyone is bisexual noone is exclusively straight or homosexual it ruins the character especially Anders.I don't care about anyone in DA2 except Varric. I didn't care for any of the new companions in ME3 I just hate Vega and find him offensive. 

deuce985 wrote...
Witcher's story tries to tell a mature story but it ends up immature, IMO. They have so many awkward moments in that game. The game has some really inconsistent writing and major plot holes too. I'm not saying it's bad...just not better than Bioware games. Some parts in the story ar excellent. That's something I want Witcher 3 to polish more. If they do that, then I'd agree...they would crush anything Bioware does.

 


Can you at least mention some plot holes? I have never seen Bioware attempt to write anything resembling dark fantasy. Bioware marketed Dragon Age Origins as "dark heroic fantasty" yet all we recieved was some more high fantasy save the world scenario. 

The social issues in the game, the characters and the world are molded so well together it really helps to enrich the story. While I wouldn't say CDProjekt is quite Obsidian's level I will say I can see that happening. Hell Obsidian does a better job at writing a sequel to Bioware games just look at Kotor 2 that was a darker story then Kotor 1.

Modifié par Skelter192, 20 avril 2012 - 03:00 .

[android654]

Skelter192 wrote...

android654 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

android654 wrote...
 Unfortunately for BW, TW2 has a better reputation by word of mouth than all the bought reviews could provide.

Word of mouth is the best ad there is. 

As sad as it sounds, I think it's dead. Whether it's games, movies, books or music, people who make things because they love those things are an endangered species. I blame people who like Scary Movie, Madden, Kanye West, Ted Nuggent, Kim Kardashian, and Danielle Stelle novels.

Yea but come on games are a totally different story. Just look at Minecraft no marketing whatsoever yet everyone know what it was and Notch sold millions before it was officially out. Witcher 1 sold 1.5 millions alone and it's still not well know but Witcher 2 has definitely brought some attention to it. 

That's a good point, but people get tainted with noteriety quickly. I hear Minecraft is going to the 360 soon, and while the inclusion is nice, it's not always golden. When you take one part talent and one part greed, the greed usually takes over. Look at what happened with BW after Mass Effect. It's been a gradual progression since that game. There's a middle ground to be found, I mean it took hollywood to do a faithful version of TGWTDT, but it's rare compared to the other things that come out. Either way, I still support CDPR since they care about their fanbase a lot, but when that changes...


On the point of BW romances, they're usually bad and this is why. Personally I'm a big fan of Jack, Thane and Miranda, but the way it's written really hurts the characters. See Shepard is so underdeveloped as a person that when you analyze the personalities of these characters, the idea of them falling for Shepard is so weak that it makes you very aware that it's orchestrated and removes any feeling of it being organic. If BW was really concerned with story telling, then Jack, Miranda, and Thane would've all spurned Shepard's advances. All for their own reasons, but Shepard doesn't have the development that makes their romance arcs feel real. DA: O gets a little of a pass since the text dialogue fleshes the main character a bit more, but even then it's left to the head cannon and less and less to the actual writing. The only way to really do this in a game is to do it like in a book or film. It can only be done properly with a scripted character, otherwise it's paperthin.

Modifié par android654, 20 avril 2012 - 03:10 .

[Addai]

I'm trying and I can't think of any plot holes or inconsistency. Examples, please.

Also, guess people haven't figured out you don't have to sleep with anyone but Triss? My Geralt is romantic with her, he behaved himself even when they were separated.  edit- Though I didn't do the succubus quest, I'm not sure if you're railroaded into having sex with her or not.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 avril 2012 - 03:05 .

[Chromie]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm trying and I can't think of any plot holes or inconsistency. Examples, please.

Also, guess people haven't figured out you don't have to sleep with anyone but Triss? My Geralt is romantic with her, he behaved himself even when they were separated.  edit- Though I didn't do the succubus quest, I'm not sure if you're railroaded into having sex with her or not.

I can't remember if you are but I know you can well kill her if you want or the elf. I know Dandelion can even mess up his ballad.

android654 wrote...
That's a good point, but people get tainted with noteriety quickly. I hear Minecraft is going to the 360 soon, and while the inclusion is nice, it's not always golden. When you take one part talent and one part greed, the greed usually takes over. Look at what happened with BW after Mass Effect. It's been a gradual progression since that game. There's a middle ground to be found, I mean it took hollywood to do a faithful version of TGWTDT, but it's rare compared to the other things that come out. Either way, I still support CDPR since they care about their fanbase a lot, but when that changes...

 

Well the good thing about CDProjekt Red (the game studio) is they are owned by CDProjekt which is owned by a larger company so they can't be bought like well Bioware. 

android654 wrote...

On the point of BW romances, they're usually bad and this is why. Personally I'm a big fan of Jack, Thane and Miranda, but the way it's written really hurts the characters. See Shepard is so underdeveloped as a person that when you analyze the personalities of these characters, the idea of them falling for Shepard is so weak that it makes you very aware that it's orchestrated and removes any feeling of it being organic. If BW was really concerned with story telling, then Jack, Miranda, and Thane would've all spurned Shepard's advances. All for their own reasons, but Shepard doesn't have the development that makes their romance arcs feel real. DA: O gets a little of a pass since the text dialogue fleshes the main character a bit more, but even then it's left to the head cannon and less and less to the actual writing. The only way to really do this in a game is to do it like in a book or film. It can only be done properly with a scripted character, otherwise it's paperthin.

 


I'll also mention that Shepard is a set protagonist imo. You can change him/her face, class, choose some dialogue but ultimately Shepard is always Shepard he'll always be a marine that joined up with Alliance and Bioware tries to sell himas your own yet we aren't given the freedom like in Origins and we aren't given the depth like Geralt. In DA:O we are given more room to roleplay since we only have the origin to explain our reason for becoming a Grey Warden anything prior is up to me. 

Modifié par Skelter192, 20 avril 2012 - 03:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

deuce985 wrote...
Witcher's different paths and how you can change settings is awesome. However, their plot holes, character development and interactions are not that great, IMO.

What plot holes?
Do you really want me to dissect every Bioware game I've played and show you how many plot holes they have?
I don't even need to dissect, I can come up with a dozen, for each game from the top of my head.

I don't care about any character in the Witcher. You don't get enough interaction with them to care about anyone. Even Trish...who was all in Witcher 1. I still didn't care about her in Witcher 2. The romance edge in that game feels completely awkward too. It's almost like watching a X-rated movie. You don't build a relationship up...you just decide to have sex with anyone in sight. Even if you're romancing Trish. Having rated R sex scenes is fine...just not the way they do them in Witcher. They seem completely out of place and they don't place them in good moments. It's almost like a mini-game of who you can slam at the wrong moments. It's childish.

I ended up caring about Triss a hundred times more than all the romance options of ME2, 3 and DA2, combined (as I was indifferent to all of them). I find Bioware romances awful lately, and even in Origins while the characters themselves were great, the actual interactions and relationship suck (you essentially bribe them with gifts). Without any exagerrations, I find the entire elven garden sequence with Triss to be better than any other romance scene Bioware did, and no I am not just talking about the love scene though that was great too.

You decide to have sex with anyone in sight in TW2? Other than prostitutes, you could only have sex with Ves, and an elf / succubus. Neither was about a relationship and that much was made clear, rather Ves wanted to have fun after you prove that you respect her as a fighter and the elf wanted to pay off a debt by seducing Geralt. The succubus was just for fun and incidently makes more sense than having sex with a desire demon in Origins. All of them are in place, they do not contradict the setting, the characters (if you want to play Geralt that way as all of these are optional), or the narrative. So how exactly are they out of place?

Need I remind you of the consort in ME1, the Pearl in Origins with implied beastiality as a joke to boot, the male elven prostitute of DA2, meaningless sex with Jack in ME2 and finally, Diana Allers (brrrr). So because they don't show you ******, they are all fine now? 

As for building a relationship up, you can with Triss (or she could just be a **** buddy if you so wish). Heck they dedicated an entire scene and several conversations for her and to define the relationship. Furthermore, Geralt is bad at relationships, that's his character and ultimately, you are playing him not someone else. He is not explicit nor is he comfortable in relationships. If you're looking for melodramatic nauseating lovey lovey romances then The Witcher is simply not for you. 

If you want to talk about childish, believe me I can write pages on how Bioware stories are very childish.

EDIT: Addai, no you are not railroaded into screwing the succubus.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 avril 2012 - 07:01 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I have to strongly disagree on that. To me Tali, Garrus and Kaidan are better then the Triss romance. Not saying Triss is ****, because she isn't, but really the only thing stands out with her is the Garden scene and the dialogue with her after.

However I really couldn't give a **** for most characters in Mass Effect and Dragon Age besides Loghain, Zaeed, Wrex, Legion and Mordin as well as the romance options I mentioned. I once used to care for TIM and Udina but that became irrelevant.

In The Witcher games I ended up giving a damn for Siegfried, Alvin, Shani, Foltest, Radovid, Henselt, Triss ( yes I do care for her in a way ), Letho,  Roche, Iorveth, Phillipa, Saskia, Zoltan, Dandelion and so many more. Hell I care for Aryan more then I care for ****ing TIM in the entirity of ME3.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[Mylia Stenetch]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What plot holes?
Do you really want me to dissect every Bioware game I've played and show you how many plot holes they have?
I don't even need to dissect, I can come up with a dozen, for each game from the top of my head.

If it is a medium where a story is told, there will be plot holes no matter what, nothing is perfect. I caught several from Bioware games, from Square Games, I cannot say for Witcher cause I have not played it, to say something does not is tough there is always something even if it is small.

Also for storytelling, what is better or not is always comes down to preference. I think most of the stories my D&D group is better than what most people came out with since it is personalized with consequnces that we have done, epic failures, and tonnes of sexual nonsense.

[Khayness]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

If it is a medium where a story is told, there will be plot holes no matter what, nothing is perfect. I caught several from Bioware games, from Square Games, I cannot say for Witcher cause I have not played it, to say something does not is tough there is always something even if it is small.

Obviously there are, but deuce talks about plotholes like the story is riddled with them and nothing makes any sense.

So we are asking about examples, because a.) he is maybe talking about things not making sense because they happened off screen (quite possible, since the world doesn't revolve around Geralt, he just happened to be dragged inside the maelstrom, and you have to play both paths to get the complete picture), or b.) he is talking about things which are vague on purpose, and hints at the books (mostly The Tower of the Swallow) or because they are plot threads picked up from The Witcher 1 (Geralt's identity and amnesia ).

So what plotholes?

[aridor1570]

[quote]Skelter192 wrote...

[quote]android654 wrote...

[quote]Skelter192 wrote...

[quote]android654 wrote...
 Unfortunately for BW, TW2 has a better reputation by word of mouth than all the bought reviews could provide.[/quote]

Word of mouth is the best ad there is. 

[/quote]

As sad as it sounds, I think it's dead. Whether it's games, movies, books or music, people who make things because they love those things are an endangered species. I blame people who like Scary Movie, Madden, Kanye West, Ted Nuggent, Kim Kardashian, and Danielle Stelle novels.

[/quote]

Yea but come on games are a totally different story. Just look at Minecraft no marketing whatsoever yet everyone know what it was and Notch sold millions before it was officially out. Witcher 1 sold 1.5 millions alone and it's still not well know but Witcher 2 has definitely brought some attention to it. 




[quote]deuce985 wrote...


Witcher's different paths and how you can change settings is awesome. However, their plot holes, character development and interactions are not that great, IMO.

[/quote] 

There are not many plotholes (honestly none come to mind this second) and nowhere near as bad as in Bioware games.

Meredith knows Hawke is a Mage yet for some reason prior to that point noone else did?
Hawke can snitch to a Templar about Anders plans and nothing happens.
Joker abandone Shepard and his crew.
EDI didn't die when you chose destroy ending.
I can go on and on.


That is a bug with the game, not the plot.

[Eski.Moe]

Loved the bromance with Iorveth. Took a while but it was cool when they finally reached that point.
Also, lesbomancy is my favourite form of magic too.

Addai67 wrote...

Also, guess people haven't figured out you don't have to sleep with anyone but Triss? My Geralt is romantic with her, he behaved himself even when they were separated.  edit- Though I didn't do the succubus quest, I'm not sure if you're railroaded into having sex with her or not.

Nah, you get a choice. In the Australian version it's an automatic decline tho, lol.

[Nerevar-as]

Rockworm503 wrote...

I've tried it. I'm not completely inept with computers.
It doesn't matter this job I'm starting sunday will force me away from my PC except on weekends so my choice of gaming will be mostly PS3 for a while. NO point in getting into it right now.

Have you tried this?
www.gog.com/en/forum/the_witcher/fixes_to_common_problems/page1

[AshedMan]

BioWare could learn a lot from CDProjekt, which is pretty sad considering BioWare completely defined the CRPG genre at one point.

[TheMufflon]

Why does every argument in defence of TW2 begin with "But DA2..."?

[Kronner]

I've been playing TW2: EE lately and it once again reminded me of how GREAT it is. It is actually the first game in ages that made me seriously consider buying new PC (I can only play TW2 on lowest settings). I've played through the game twice before EE came out, but I still enjoy it so much. Just wow. BioWare could, and should, learn a lot from CDP RED.

[C9316]

The difference is CDprojekt is up and coming and independent right?

[Fortack]

C9316 wrote...

The difference is CDprojekt is up and coming and independent right?

Yeah, let's hope that doesn't change. It's one of the last gaming companies that makes games for gamers, not for the management team and shareholders.

[Vaern Sul]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Rerelease the same game a dozen times! BW, thats the way to do it!!!


(what people would say if this actually happened)

So you're saying that BW should keep on releasing rushed games à la DA2 instead ?And that they should keep ignoring most of their customer feedback ?

(If that kind of blatant exaggeration is good enough for you, it's good enough to counter your points.)

Modifié par Vaern Sul, 20 avril 2012 - 02:21 .

[Chromie]

C9316 wrote...

The difference is CDprojekt is up and coming and independent right?

CDProjekt Red is the studio that made the game which is owned by CDProjekt which I believe is owned by a larger company. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Skelter192 wrote...

C9316 wrote...

The difference is CDprojekt is up and coming and independent right?

CDProjekt Red is the studio that made the game which is owned by CDProjekt which I believe is owned by a larger company. 

A pretty damned big company actually: 
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/CD_Projekt 

[Ravensword]

I don't know what the big deal w/ this game is. It seems rather average, actually. I'd be inclined to play it if they released it on the PS3, which is something they'll probably end up doing to make more money on this game.