Reapers would "bleed us dry". Meanwhile, the Codex entry highlighting the Reaper's vulnerabilities serves to back up his point. Here are a few reasons for why, according to the Codex (and some other sources) Hackett is right. Please try and read the whole thing before posting, I know its long but I'd rather not have to answer comments stating I said one thing when I meant another.
1.) First, the Codex entry on Reaper Vulnerabilites states that,
"In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show betterresults against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts."
Source: http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities
It takes four dreadnoughts, with Thanix weapons mind you, just to take down one Reaper capital ship (or Sovereign class). And even if those dreadnoughts manage to take down a capital ship, the other Reaper ships would just swoop in and wipe out the dreadnoughts. So for every Sovereign class Reaper we take down, we will potentially lose 4 dreadnoughts in the process.
2.) That's not even counting the amount of ships such as escorting frigates, cruisers, or maybe even a dreadnought or two that would be lost just getting the remaining dreadnoughts into a good firing position for their shots to be effective enough to take down a Sovereign class ship. Why do they need to get into a good firing position? Because the Reapers could simply dodge the shells being fired. It's already established that they're incredibly maneuvable, and from the cinematic of the Sword fleet battle a lot of the shells that are fired at the
Reapers can be seen missing their target or being brushed off.
Source:
3.) Also, there's this quote:
"Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation."
Source: http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities
Clearly, this highlights another weakness of the Reapers. Yes dreadnoughts can FTL jump right behind a Reaper capital ship and fire on them, thus avoiding having to engage the Reapers upfront in order to get into a good firing
position. This presumably means that less ships will be lost. BUT lets not forget that, "This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation." In other words, even if a group of dreadnoughts were to try this, they'll eventually be wiped out by the rest of the Reaper ships in formation. If we're lucky, our dreadnoughts would be able to take out a few Sovereigns, maybe even stagger them, but how long before their escorts fly in to wipe them out?
But even if 1-2 dreadnoughts could manage to escape, at that high of an attrition rate it wouldn't be long until the bulk of the galaxy's fighting force would be destroyed. And how often would the Citadel races be able to get the jump on the Reapers like that, where a Soveriegn class ship is in a perfect enough position that we could jump some dreadnought's behind it?
Do we even know how effective the FTL drives of the Citadel races are? Could they be able to perform such a precision jump without the circumstances being at optimal conditions? In ME1's intro, its mentioned how impressive jumping within "1500k" of their target was, and that was with the most advanced ship in the Alliance navy. Could a big, lumbering, dreadnought be able to jump with such precision? Even if, again, the rare opportunity to jump a Soveriegn class ship presented itself?
4.) Going back to the attrition rate, every single engagement would cost us dearly. Consider also
just how limited an amount of ships we actually have, according to this quote from the wiki:
"As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own."
Source: http://masseffect.wi...ht#Dreadnoughts
If you add it up altogether, they're a total of 85 dreadnoughts amongst the council races (and 1 from the Volus, but its technically under the command of the Turian Heirarchy). As for the other races, we don't really hear mention of them having any dreadnoughts in game so lets assume that they don't have any for now.
Now, let's do the math. It takes 4 dreadnoughts to take down one Sovereign class Reaper, and if we factor in the presumable combat losses such an engagement would bring, the worst case scenario would end up being 21.25 (85/4=21.25) Sovereign class ships destroyed with all of our 85 dreadnoughts lost as well.
Furthermore, if we only lost an average of 3 dreadnoughts per 1 Sovereign class destroyed, we would still be only able to take down 28.33 Sovereign class ships with us. If it were 2 dreadnoughts lost per 1 Sovereign class ship, then the number would jump up to 42.5 Sovereigns destroyed at the cost of all of our dreadnoughts. Now, while 42.5 Sovereigns destroyed does look better, considering the other factors that I have pointed out above, losing an average of 2 dreadnoughts per engagement would be extremely lucky IMO.
Bear in mind that the number of 85 dreadnoughts is not counting how many were lost in the initial Reaper attacks on each race. Also, the Alliance has already lost at least one of its dreadnoughts, the SSV Shasta (source: http://masseffect.wi...vy#Dreadnoughts).
Now lets factor in how many Reaper capital ships there are. As far as I know, there is never an excact figure given, but we do know that there are hundreds, if not thousands of them. Garrus, for example, says one thousand Reaper ships exist.
Let's couple that with what we know from the codex:
"CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. They typically target the dreadnoughts, defense installations, and industrial cities of organic civilizations. Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. Some capital ships are capable of launching small drones equivalent to fighters.
* DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. They engage cruisers and other, smaller ships, as well as communications posts and enemy command centers. Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships."
Source: http://masseffect.wi...ers#The_Reapers
So we can gather that destroyers make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. So how many Sovereign class capital ships are there? Again, a figure is never listed, but let's say its at least a hundred. That would mean if they were a thousand ships total, each Sovereign class ship would have 10 destroyers guarding it. Not a perfect number I know, but let's work with it considering the lack of information.
Add this new information to our previous math where again, at the cost of all of their dreadnoughts, and at a rate of 2 dreadnoughts lost per 1 Sovereign class destroyed, then the Citadel races would've taken down 42.5 (or 42, if you adjust for the loss of the SSV Shasta) Sovereign classes. No small feat mind you, but even if we sacrifice all of our dreadnoughts, with a very "optimal" loss rate of 2 ships lost per engagement, then there would still be 57.5-58 Sovereigns lying around.
5.) With the destroyers, we stand a better chance. According to the Codex:
"The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they
are themselves destroyed."
Source: http://masseffect.wi...ers#The_Reapers
Not so bad right? But remember the caveat of "It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer IF they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed." Also consider the intro from ME3, when trying to reach the Normandy after the Reapers had landed, we see a scene where a destroyer is going against an Alliance "cruiser" (the Devs have admitted that calling it a Dreadnought was a mistake in the dialogue scripts).
Source:
As we can see, the cruiser doesn't do so well. Now I guess you can chalk it up to the Devs wanting to have a cruiser exploding for the cool "Hollywood bang" sequence, but also remember how the Reapers were able to annihilate the Alliance fleets stationed above Earth in minutes. And let's not forget the several scenes throughout ME1 & ME3 depicting how easily a cruiser can be destroyed by a few shots from a Reaper ship.
For example, here's the Sword fleet scene again.
Source:
At 2:43, a cruiser seems to survive a direct hit, indicative perhaps of some enhancements in shield technology from ME1-ME3. But at 2:55, another seems to be destroyed pretty quickly. And if we consider again how quickly the Reapers absolutely steamrolled through the Alliance fleets within minutes, even with these shield advancements, it still wouldn't be enough to protect the Cruisers for more than a few shots at best.
So with this in mind, the Codex's claim about how a destroyer can be taken out by one cruiser is questionable. Perhaps under the best of circumstances, and if the cruiser was extremely lucky/piloted by an extremely capable crew then yes I can see it happening if they go one on one. And those are long odds indeed. Now, when considering those odds, imagine a "wolfpack" group of cruisers going up against the same number of destroyers.
Even if the cruisers were to win, they couldn't do so without enormous casualties. And again, if we consider just how many destroyers are there, 900 if we use the previously mentioned figure, than at best it would take us 900 cruisers to take out 900 of there destroyers, if we're lucky.
But what would happen if a cruiser Wolf Pack outnumbers a group of destroyers? Wouldn't they have an advantage? Perhaps, but again, considering the destructive power of the Reaper's laser and how little protection the Cruiser's shields can provide them, than it is highly likely that the Cruiser wolf pack will have at least a few casualties. And then, these cruisers would have to deal with the remaining 57-58 remaining Sovereign class ships left. Again, the numbers don't look good.
Same idea applies for fighters. The quote about Reaper vulnerabilites states that it would take "many fighters" to take down one destroyer. Again, no exact figure is given so we're going to have to assume some numbers again. We saw a little bit of some fighter v. destroyer action on Priority: Tuchanka, where a dozen or so Turian fighters can be seen engaging a destroyer. To remind those of you who don't remember, the fighters were supposed to help lure the destroyer away from the Shroud. Unfortunately, most, if not all of the fighters are shot down with little damage done to the destroyer.
But because these fighters were meant to serve as a distraction, can we really judge the basis of how effective fighters are against destroyers? The ease at which the destroyer took these fighters down, cannot be ignored. So how would an actual, sizable fighter group fare against a destroyer with the proper ordinance? Presumably, you would need a lot of fighter bombers, plus escorts to protect them if they're a large amount of Occuli that are nearby. I'm not sure if destroyers can carry Occuli, but if they're near a Sovereign class then we can be sure to count hundreds if not thousands of Occuli as part of their defensive screen.
So if fighters are engaging one destroyer, and considering again how easy it was for the destroyer on Tuchanka to shoot down dozens of fighters, the losses would be severely high. Now if this were a massive fleet engagement against dozens of destroyers, with maybe even a Sovereign class and its massive Occuli fighter screen in the mix, then the casualty rates for these poor fighter pilots will undoubtedly skyrocket even more.
Note: Some of you have mentioned how effective an Alliance air wing would be for example if all its fighters were armed with Thanix weapons. Well aren't the Reaper's Occuli fighters armed with a similar, if not more powerful laser already? That's because the Occuli laser is derived from the Reaper's main gun. Its shown to be powerful enough in ME2 during the suicide mission to rip through the Normandy's hull and its shields, when the Occuli enters the shuttle bay after all. So whats stopping these hundreds of Occuli from descending upon the ships of the Citadel fleet?
Therefore, having to lose dozens of trained fighter pilots for each battle, or just to take down one destroyer, how long will it take for the fighter corps of each race to be depleted? How long would it take to train a fresh batch of pilots? Months presumably right? Or we can rush them out after a few weeks like the Japanese did in WWII, but look how that turned out. The experience and effectiveness rate of each race's fighter corps would plummet, while at the same time draining our manpower and resources to train/prepare a new batch of fighters and their pilots.
6.) Which leads to my last point. How long can the races of the galaxy fight on like this? Having to constantly rebuild/train your fighter corps, repair/rebuild all the ships that have been damaged or destroyed in battle, will of course require an incredible large amount of resources. But how many resources would the Citadel races have left, with most of their homeworlds and colonies occupied and under Reaper control? Sure they could retake a planet or two, but with all the factors that have been pointed out above, the losses would be staggering. And the Reapers could always return and take back our gains. Coupled with the massive amounts of war refugees/and or that are now displaced and in need of shelter and care, then it wouldn't be long until the surviving governments of the galaxy would be strained till the limit. What's to stop the inevitable fracturing and infighting that would ensue, with some governments capitulating in order to survive, becoming indoctrinating in the process?
The Reapers, with the benefit of time and their ability to handle the massive attrition rate that we can't, would simply wait us out, taking territory after territory, sezing or destroying any usable resource until they eventually "bleed us out". Sure, we would put up a hell of a fight. We could maybe even give the Yahg or whoever takes over in the next cycle a fighting chance, but as it stands now, Hackett is right.
Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 06:03 .
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