444 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Defeating the reapers isn't mathematically impossible - we clearly can fight against them conventionally and do some damage.

But it's impossible for all practical purposes, because while we need a 4-1 advantage to take them out - well, that's dreadnoughts but I'd expect equivalent numbers would apply to non-capital ships - they in fact outnumber us by a considerable margin.

[Joccaren]

Something that also strikes me is that the Reapers are basically "As strong as the plot needs them to be".

Look at Sovereign. He was a beast to take down. 3 fleets. Didn't kill take down his shields. Shepard had to do that for them.
Look at the Human Reaper. Yeah, larvae form. Could be killed with a freaking pistol if you had enough ammo.
Look at the Reaper on Tuchanka. Taken down by a Thresher Maw. A freaking sandworm.
Rannoch, for something a single cruiser could take down, that thing took an awful lot of firepower from the Quarians to remove.
Palaven: The Reapers were pushed back by ground troops.

There isn't a consistent strength for the Reapers. They are as strong as the story needs them to be. It wants them to be unstoppable - they're unstoppable. It wants them to be able to die to three people on foot - that can happen.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

fainmaca wrote...

What I don't get is if the war with the Reapers is meant to be such a curb-stomp unwinnable situation, then why does it take centuries to wipe out a cycle? Why are the Turians able to slow them down so much over Palaven? I know the Turians weren't winning, but they put up enough resistance to considerably slow them down, to the point where the injection of the Krogan ground troops allowed them to free up a sizeable portion of their fleets to go fight for Earth while still not losing the planet. all of this suggests to me that a combined effort from all of the races should have had a chance at winning, albeit a slim one.

Thats our allies' strongest fleet and they still aren't enough to save one planet.  Thats the entire reason we recruit the quarians and geth, because no other fleet is good enough to give us a shot.  We already lost the batarians immediately so they werent an option.  Honestly you're really over-estimating how viable most of the war assets we gather are worth.

• Salarians are great scientists, their only real use is in the crucible.
• Turians are our best council race as far as soldiers and fleet strength goes, without them we wouldnt have lasted as long as we did.
• Asari are great for support and not much else, as we see how easily the reapers tear through them on thessia.
• Humans are pretty solid soldiers and have decent fleet strength but we still dont compare to the turians in strength and fire power.
• Volus Elcor and Hanar dont really have much to offer.  As it was mentioned dreadnaughts are still not anywhere near expendable as far as our militaries are concerned, so while the volus were able to construct a single dreadnaught, thats about the extent of their worth in the war.  Elcor may be good support shock troops but thats it.
• Krogans dont really have much to speak of in fleets but as far as shock troops go they're the best we've got.
• Raccni
  could have been a major asset but they were wiped out.  Theres not
  enough left of them to be a major factor in the war, but they do make a
  good manual labor force.
• Batarians could have been a huge boon, but they're almost entirely wiped out.  Their fleets were powerful and they have strong soldiers, but it was all wasted when the reapers hit them first.  Recruiting them would have been like having a second turian army, but it was not to be.
• Quarian make for the strongest non synthetic fleet in the galaxy, so they are a priority recruitment, but that can be an issue because of the conflict surrounding their homeworld.  they arent really useful as ground forces though.
• Geth are probably the most valuable recruitment in the whole game.  Not only do they have the strongest fleet in the galaxy but they have some of the best shock troops at their disposal, especially after their upgrades on rannoch.  From a non-personal standpoint our governments would value geth forces above all others.

And yet this still doesnt really give us a shot against the reapers.  Even with the full force of the Raccni and Batarians, had they both not been decimated in the past, along with the optimal recruitment, our chances would be slim and only with near suicidal tactics.  In a way we're lucky even to get just the geth.  The reapers can outlast us, at our best we can fight conservatively to maintain our fleets.  This is how the turians were fighting on palaven and its how they were able to last so long, but they had no chance of victory still.  under similar tactics the humans were losing capital cities, and yet we're the second strongest force in the council races.  I wish the war assets had better reflected the ACTUAL strength of these armies, it feels like they tipped some scales a little for reasons.  (alliance shouldnt be the most valuable asset, N7 special forces are worth way more than they should be.  that first promotion of 75 war assets is about as far as it really should have gone.) 

The logic behind the OP is really solid and any disagreements with that just look silly and unknowledgable.  Wars are a real thing and not something you can just write away.  the crucible should have been the point of ME2, but really without it we'd have no chance.  Adding onto that, Anderson seeds the idea of a prothean superweapon all throughout ME1.  Its practically all he talks about.  I remember hearing information from devs about ME2 out that maybe we'd visit mars.  Hearing all this talk about alot of ME3 stuff being made up of stuff cut from ME2 and ME2 dlc, it makes me wonder if finding the plans for the crucible was going to be a plot element of ME2 but they cut it for some reason.  Maybe the mars mission wasnt shaping up or they couldnt write a good reason for collector forces to actually be in our system.  ME2 was a rushed game in some ways and it feels like we're only now reeling from the results of that.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 20 avril 2012 - 11:30 .

[EintagsBigB]

Just a quick figure, pointing out how many Sovereign class ships could exist: The oldest entry we have in the timeline is the Leviathan of Dis 1 Billion years ago. Now if one new capital ship is constructed in every cycle, the amount of capital ships would be:
1.000.000.000 / 50.000 =  20000
So the estimation of 100 capital ships is very low indeed and thus it is even more unlikely that a open brawl would yield any promising results...

edit: for correct number

Modifié par EintagsBigB, 20 avril 2012 - 11:46 .

[Shallyah]

If only one Reaper can be killed, they can all be defeated conventionally. All it takes is tactics and some luck. Shepard has overcome far greater odds during his journey.

A knowledgeable person would tell you "The only certain thing in life is Death". Well, Shepard has returned from Death.

Modifié par Shallyah, 20 avril 2012 - 11:47 .

[Elyiia]

EintagsBigB wrote...

Just a quick figure, pointing out: How many Sovereign class ships could exist: The derelict Reaper was "deactivated" by a mass accelerator weapon 37 Million years ago. Now if one new capital ship is constructed in every cycle, the amount of capital ships would be:
37.000.000 / 50.000 = 740
So the estimation of 100 capital ships is very low indeed and thus it is even more unlikely that a open brawl would yield any promising results...

The oldest known Reaper is one billion years old, and you're ignoring a ton of variables.

[Corvus74]

Just a few points to make.

The kinetic shields of a Reaper capital ship fail when 4 dreadnoughts fire at it - but thanix weapons aren't kinetic weapons. And we've all seen just how easy Reapers go down when their shields aren't in play.

The codex states that the vast majority of Reaper forces are actually destroyers, and those destroyers can be taken out by a cruiser, or even fighters.

The thanix is now in widespread usage (even the Quarians have them mounted on their liveships) and can be mounted on everything from fighters to dreadnaughts. In fact the Volus dreadnought is outfitted with nothing but thanix weapons, which have enough firepower to burn a planet three times over.

In all other cycles the Reapers hit the citadel by surprise, using it to shut down all communication and splitting the galaxy into very small pockets of resistance that could be smashed piece by piece - during which the Reapers took very few, if any losses. One of the devs stated that they almost never lost capital ships during those cycles.

This cycle the galaxy is united and have a truly massive fleet. Just how big is hard to say, but 100,000+ is likely. Already they have destroyed multiple capital ships, and even more destroyers, even prior to the battle for Earth.

The Geth, I feel, are the wild card. They are true AI now, with a massive fleet and the ability to crank out even more very fast. Remember the Geth work at maximum efficiency 24/7. if they go into total war mode they could pour out the new ships, especially given that their sector of space has been untouched. And the super-dreadnought we saw they had was staggeringly powerful. Imagine of they started building more of those, with thanix weapons (which they didn't seem to have.)

It would have been the height of irony if it was the geth that had turned the tide against the Reapers. But no, we had to have Casper the starchild and his inane 'arty' existance.

[Computron2000]

Long ago, after ME2, i mentioned that the way to defeat the Reapers was already given to us. http://social.biowar...5/index/1439963

During ME2, people have already pointed out the Reapers are not up against the same as during Sovereign's attack (which includes the large geth fleet that escorted him so it was not 1 vs the fleet). The salvage of the Thannix cannon have placed the fleet on a very close level offensively with the Reapers. Defensively, the galactic races are very very much poorer than the Reapers. This means the galactic races will die to the Reapers faster than they can give birth, mature and train as fighters.

However the Reproduction rate of a Reaper is also pretty poor given the Human Reaper experience. This means killing one is going to set them back as well. The answer than lies in how do we get trained fighters capable of damaging and in swarms destroying a Reaper in a very quick way?

Answer: Flying Thannix cannons with hardware based programming without external interface (hence hacking is impossible just like you cannot hack the non-flash BIOs of old 286 PCs without resoldering). EMP protection is of course expected.

You get to throw large number of Thannix cannons in an efficient manner as these things don't need living space, life support equipment space, gravity, etc. All the materials that would be used for living creatures in standard frigate can instead be used to build another flying Thannix cannon. Undoubtedly these will be blown up in large numbers but you can keep throwing as many as you build and the slow blood loss is reversed towards the Reapers instead.

[Shallyah]

Elyiia wrote...

EintagsBigB wrote...

Just a quick figure, pointing out: How many Sovereign class ships could exist: The derelict Reaper was "deactivated" by a mass accelerator weapon 37 Million years ago. Now if one new capital ship is constructed in every cycle, the amount of capital ships would be:
37.000.000 / 50.000 = 740
So the estimation of 100 capital ships is very low indeed and thus it is even more unlikely that a open brawl would yield any promising results...

The oldest known Reaper is one billion years old, and you're ignoring a ton of variables.

Yeah, like assuming that nobody ever before killed a Reaper. We know that the Protheans themselves put a heavy dent in them in a war that spanned 100 years, so the Reapers only in that cycle lost vastly more numbers than they created.

I've seen a Reaper Destroyer die from two missiles shot from a stranded truck in Earth. From a -truck-. You tell me they can't be beaten conventionally? Yeah, right.

Modifié par Shallyah, 20 avril 2012 - 11:50 .

[Corvus74]

EintagsBigB wrote...

Just a quick figure, pointing out how many Sovereign class ships could exist: The oldest entry we have in the timeline is the Leviathan of Dis 1 Billion years ago. Now if one new capital ship is constructed in every cycle, the amount of capital ships would be:
1.000.000.000 / 50.000 =  20000
So the estimation of 100 capital ships is very low indeed and thus it is even more unlikely that a open brawl would yield any promising results...

edit: for correct number

It has been stated that they do not build a captial ship each cycle though - in some there are no worthwhile candidates to be had.  There were none from the Prothean cycle for example.

[TheLastAwakening]

Laurencio wrote...

We found a weakness, our squad of 3 killed roughly three reapers, and with a decent aiming system we took down a reaper in less than 2 minutes. So, why can't we win relatively conventionally? Or at the very least use supernovas to cripple their fleet.

There are too many unknowns. Furthermore, just because the squad of 3 took down x amount of Reapers doesn't mean a conventional victory is possible. In arguing in favor of a conventional means I think many people forget that one of the Reapers best weapon is indoctrination and another is identifying and exploiting the weakness of species/etc within that cycle. The Reapers appear to be unaffected by the loss of a few ships. However, in order to gain these small victory against the Reapers there had to be a lot of loss if not massive casualties (Priority:Earth).

[Elyiia]

Shallyah wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

EintagsBigB wrote...

Just a quick figure, pointing out: How many Sovereign class ships could exist: The derelict Reaper was "deactivated" by a mass accelerator weapon 37 Million years ago. Now if one new capital ship is constructed in every cycle, the amount of capital ships would be:
37.000.000 / 50.000 = 740
So the estimation of 100 capital ships is very low indeed and thus it is even more unlikely that a open brawl would yield any promising results...

The oldest known Reaper is one billion years old, and you're ignoring a ton of variables.

Yeah, like assuming that nobody ever before killed a Reaper. We know that the Protheans themselves put a heavy dent in them in a war that spanned 100 years, so the Reapers only in that cycle lost vastly more numbers than they created.

I've seen a Reaper Destroyer die from two missiles shot from a stranded truck in Earth. From a -truck-. You tell me they can't be beaten conventionally? Yeah, right.

With how easily Destroyers can be taken down, and with Capital ships being taken out with suicide bombers I have a hard time believing they don't take casualties.

It also ignores the fact that out of the 20ish species we know of in the two cycles we have information on, only one could be used to make a Capital ship (Humans).

[EintagsBigB]

Elyiia wrote...

The oldest known Reaper is one billion years old, and you're ignoring a ton of variables.

I know, one can argue that no capital ship was constructed in the Prothean cycle and that some captial ships were destroyed over the years but 100 ships does seem rather a low estimate given the number of cycles the reapers have done.

Wouls you care to elaborate which variables you were reffering to? I did not find much information on the topic of reaper numbers, only that one guy on the forum counted the reapers in the end cinematic of ME2 and those were about 230 or something like that

[GnusmasTHX]

Codex can't tell me what to do. It's not the boss of me.

[UrgentArchengel]

Just use the power of the cosmic cube to wipe them from existence.

[Ubergrog]

Not entirely, Allan.

Though I see how you can view it that way, I have come from a gaming world where the only armor is plot armor. In this game, the plot armor is actually quite thin until the end.

Allow me to give you an example.
Warhammer 40k: the higher rank you are, the less likely you will wear a helmet. Plot armor protects you from being shot in the head.

Mass Effect: Plot armor permits enemies from being shot to death during cut scenes.

there -is- a difference. Frankly, conventional war and victory would be MUCH more satisfying, if costly. The codex is repeatedly ignored and contradicts actual in-game events a LOT though.

Plot armor is also what prevents shepard from kicking the star-jar in the jewels and surfing back to earth on Harby's blasted corpse.

[Elyiia]

EintagsBigB wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The oldest known Reaper is one billion years old, and you're ignoring a ton of variables.

I know, one can argue that no capital ship was constructed in the Prothean cycle and that some captial ships were destroyed over the years but 100 ships does seem rather a low estimate given the number of cycles the reapers have done.

Wouls you care to elaborate which variables you were reffering to? I did not find much information on the topic of reaper numbers, only that one guy on the forum counted the reapers in the end cinematic of ME2 and those were about 230 or something like that

Off the top of my head, while distracted.

Reaper casualties.
Species compatibility.
Species having sufficient numbers to make a Capital ship.

There's more, but I can't remember them atm.

[GnusmasTHX]

Corvus74 wrote...


The codex states that the vast majority of Reaper forces are actually destroyers, and those destroyers can be taken out by a cruiser, or even fighters.

That's like saying the vast majority of Morgoth's army were Orcs. Sure, well and great, doesn't address the fact that he still has thousands of balrogs and trolls. If anything it's just saying "see these 80 or so Reaper dreadnoughts in this cutscene? Not only are these not ALL of the Reaper dreadnoughts, there are significantly more destroyers than there are these dreadnoughts."

The fact that the Reapers are only beat by plot stupid, and EVERY "theory" I've heard here relies on Reapers even being more plot stupid, then it's fairly obvious they can't be beaten conventionally.

I'd like for once a suggestion on the Reapers being beat that doesn't involve the Reapers sitting around like morons. I mean why theory craft using a smarter galaxy fleet but keep the Reapers just as stupid, or make them stupider to conform to your ideas?

Of course people completely ignore the end of ME3, wherein if Shepard takes too long, the Reapers destroy the Crucible. Even if you activate it, the cutscene clearly shows capital ships already on the surface, and more landing. One might consider this indicative that the fleet you mustered got owned, and the Reapers have already begun to clean up on the ground.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 20 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[Vigil_N7]

Well put. Regardless of the speculation(omg!!!) its clear Bioware intended that the reaper war could not be won by conventional means, even if Shepard unites the galaxy.

[Shallyah]

Here is a random truck with 2 missiles.

Here is a dead Reaper Destroyer.

End of thread.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Shallyah wrote...

If only one Reaper can be killed, they can all be defeated conventionally. All it takes is tactics and some luck. Shepard has overcome far greater odds during his journey.

A knowledgeable person would tell you "The only certain thing in life is Death". Well, Shepard has returned from Death.

rofl this post

this post is the prime example of childish optimism and false hope.  Read your codex, the reapers cant be defeated conventionally.  the only times a reaper is defeated in the games is through UNCONVENTIONAL MEANS.

ME1: You sabotage the reaper's brains and disable it, this is unconventional.

ME3: We arent counting destroyers, they're basically reaper shock troops, not true reapers.  a soverign class reaper is only defeatable through unconventional means (sacrificing dreatnaughts, suicidal tactics, aka: unconventional means)  And if suicide is the only way to beat reapers....

:-/

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 20 avril 2012 - 12:32 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Shallyah wrote...

Here is a random truck with 2 missiles.

Here is a dead Reaper Destroyer.

End of thread.

you destroy another destroyer with a cain.  destroyers arent **** compared to a real reaper.  the codex tell you about how destroyers are much weaker and have very little shielding and a fraction of the firepower of an actual reaper.  remember when harbinger took out an entire troop by himself at the end of london?  i dont think even 3 Cain missile launchers would help you fight harbinger.  

[PSUHammer]

So, OP, how much time did you spend on this?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Of course people completely ignore the end of ME3, wherein if Shepard takes too long, the Reapers destroy the Crucible. Even if you activate it, the cutscene clearly shows capital ships already on the surface, and more landing. One might consider this indicative that the fleet you mustered got owned, and the Reapers have already begun to clean up on the ground.

This

a thousand times this

but also i have to concede it doesnt necessarily mean the fleets were destroyed, only that the battle is going SO WELL in the reapers' favor that they are able to sacrifice harbinger AND capital ships from the space battle to go mop up ground forces.  This is why i'm so pumped for extended cut, because we'll get more space battles and ships blowing up and everyone dieing and all hope being lost.  

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 20 avril 2012 - 12:30 .

[tinman888]

Like many said before me, the Reapers are only as strong as the writers want them to be.

In other words, they give you all this hope that you might be able to destroy the reapers conventionally, but then nope.