444 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

tinman888 wrote...

Like many said before me, the Reapers are only as strong as the writers want them to be.

In other words, they give you all this hope that you might be able to destroy the reapers conventionally, but then nope.

When did the writers ever give us hope of defeating the reapers?  It always seemed like shepard was expressing BLIND OPTOMISM to me, infact this is exactly what the LotSB dlc gives us in the chat with liara at the end, same thing for ALL conversations with liara/hackett/anyone about the reapers in me3.

is it just that YOU wanted to be able to defeat the reapers by "building more marines" and "harvesting vespian gas"??


maybe if we construct additional pylons it'll GIVE US AN EDGE in the WAR WITH THE REAPERS....  

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 20 avril 2012 - 12:34 .

[hammyhamstersy]

Ubergrog wrote...

Not entirely, Allan.

Though I see how you can view it that way, I have come from a gaming world where the only armor is plot armor. In this game, the plot armor is actually quite thin until the end.

Allow me to give you an example.
Warhammer 40k: the higher rank you are, the less likely you will wear a helmet. Plot armor protects you from being shot in the head.

Mass Effect: Plot armor permits enemies from being shot to death during cut scenes.

there -is- a difference. Frankly, conventional war and victory would be MUCH more satisfying, if costly. The codex is repeatedly ignored and contradicts actual in-game events a LOT though.

Plot armor is also what prevents shepard from kicking the star-jar in the jewels and surfing back to earth on Harby's blasted corpse.

I would LOVE to see Shep doing that!  I thought it was pretty hilarious that Shep got off the shuttle and fought the reaper on FOOT.  

Back to topic... I was under the impression that Thanix cannons were super expensive to make.  Is that right?  Also from what I remember of the codex it seemed like space combat should have been more interesting than just staring at each other and firing mass effect cannons.  And also because 'capital ship' kinetic barriers needed to be disrupted by fighters before long range bombardment would even work.        

[Elyiia]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Of course people completely ignore the end of ME3, wherein if Shepard takes too long, the Reapers destroy the Crucible. Even if you activate it, the cutscene clearly shows capital ships already on the surface, and more landing. One might consider this indicative that the fleet you mustered got owned, and the Reapers have already begun to clean up on the ground.

This

a thousand times this

but also i have to concede it doesnt necessarily mean the fleets were destroyed, only that the battle is going SO WELL in the reapers' favor that they are able to sacrifice harbinger AND capital ships from the space battle to go mop up ground forces.  This is why i'm so pumped for extended cut, because we'll get more space battles and ships blowing up and everyone dieing and all hope being lost.  

If our entire plan didn't rely on a magical space prob that might be a weapon, and might not, then we wouldn't have left the Citadel undefended, basically giving it to the Reapers.

If our leaders weren't stupid, we would have prepared the system that we know they're going to arrive in to do as much damage to them as possible with out even being there.

If the council hadn't been hit with the stupid stick when we destroyed Sovereign.

If our leaders weren't so dumb, we could have won. It would have been bloody. We would have lost an insane amount of people but we could have won.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

hammyhamstersy wrote...

I would LOVE to see Shep doing that!  I thought it was pretty hilarious that Shep got off the shuttle and fought the reaper on FOOT.  

Well I mean EVERYONE complained about that turret sequence from e3, even the crowds at e3.  shepard heard us and said "Hang on i'm just gonna run back and forth on a shelf instead"

Personally i wish the shelf scene didnt have to involve 3 lazerblasts to the face!!  :/

also a thresher maw probably couldnt beat soverign or harbinger.  Look at it this way: Reapers were so strong that Bioware had to create little baby reapers just so we'd be able to blow some up in this game.  The art book basicly says this outright.  

[huntsman2310]

Yes but that Cruiser was in atmo at the time. And there's also the fact that it wasn't even facing the destroyer at the time.

And no one said that conventional means would save more ships then the crucible method.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Elyiia wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Of course people completely ignore the end of ME3, wherein if Shepard takes too long, the Reapers destroy the Crucible. Even if you activate it, the cutscene clearly shows capital ships already on the surface, and more landing. One might consider this indicative that the fleet you mustered got owned, and the Reapers have already begun to clean up on the ground.

This

a thousand times this

but also i have to concede it doesnt necessarily mean the fleets were destroyed, only that the battle is going SO WELL in the reapers' favor that they are able to sacrifice harbinger AND capital ships from the space battle to go mop up ground forces.  This is why i'm so pumped for extended cut, because we'll get more space battles and ships blowing up and everyone dieing and all hope being lost.  

If our entire plan didn't rely on a magical space prob that might be a weapon, and might not, then we wouldn't have left the Citadel undefended, basically giving it to the Reapers.

If our leaders weren't stupid, we would have prepared the system that we know they're going to arrive in to do as much damage to them as possible with out even being there.

If the council hadn't been hit with the stupid stick when we destroyed Sovereign.

If our leaders weren't so dumb, we could have won. It would have been bloody. We would have lost an insane amount of people but we could have won.

rofl why do you think it would have even been POSSIBLE for us to have won?  thats real funny.
Remember how several alliance fleets stood no chance against soverign?  Remember when he just wiped the floor with the turian and asari defense fleets of the citadel?  Remember how we basically had to destroy its brain before anyone could even HURT the thing.  Why do you think the combined forces of the council races would even stand a CHANCE at defeating the reapers?  Because you WANT them to?

Also prothean stuff had been pretty reliable up to this point, we have no reason to doubt it.  :/

maybe you just dont like the protheans
is that it?

[Elyiia]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

rofl why do you think it would have even been POSSIBLE for us to have won?  thats real funny.
Remember how several alliance fleets stood no chance against soverign?  Remember when he just wiped the floor with the turian and asari defense fleets of the citadel?  Remember how we basically had to destroy its brain before anyone could even HURT the thing.  Why do you think the combined forces of the council races would even stand a CHANCE at defeating the reapers?  Because you WANT them to?

Also prothean stuff had been pretty reliable up to this point, we have no reason to doubt it.  :/

maybe you just dont like the protheans
is that it?

Sovereign was fought by a single Alliance fleet and the Citadel defence fleet. The Citadel defence fleet got demolished, not by Sov, but by the Geth because they didn't listen to Shepard. Sovereign's involvement in that fight was to ram a few ships. They were also using kinetic weapons, not heat weapons like thanix canons. We don't even know if it was because Shepard killed Saren that his sheilds went down, it's speculated that was the cause but that doesn't make it true. Especially in a Codex that's so inconsistant.

And we had access to that Prothean data for fifty years, why did we only discover the magic probe when the Reapers arrived?

[Corvus74]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...


rofl this post

this post is the prime example of childish optimism and false hope.  Read your codex, the reapers cant be defeated conventionally.  the only times a reaper is defeated in the games is through UNCONVENTIONAL MEANS.

Read up on the Turians.  They took down a number of Reaper capital ships via conventional means during the initial attack on Palaven, and it was only the Reapers sending a force to bypass them and start bombing the planet that forced the battle.

Modifié par Corvus74, 20 avril 2012 - 12:55 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Elyiia wrote...

Sovereign was fought by a single Alliance fleet and the Citadel defence fleet. The Citadel defence fleet got demolished, not by Sov, but by the Geth because they didn't listen to Shepard. Sovereign's involvement in that fight was to ram a few ships. They were also using kinetic weapons, not heat weapons like thanix canons. We don't even know if it was because Shepard killed Saren that his sheilds went down, it's speculated that was the cause but that doesn't make it true. Especially in a Codex that's so inconsistant.

And we had access to that Prothean data for fifty years, why did we only discover the magic probe when the Reapers arrived?

Not a single fleet.  at least the first, third, and fifth alliance fleets were present in the battle.  We dont have that many fleets.  We lose ENTIRE fleets when the reapers make their invasion.  

Also I wasnt talking about how many of our dudes got killed, i was talking about the fact that we were unable to put a DENT in that thing until it went offline when you killed saren.

Also yeah its pretty consistent that killing saren is what brought it offline.  it wouldnt just let go of the citadel and float arround doing nothing like it was brain dead just because its shields went offline due to sustained fire from some fleets.  :\\

You think thanix canons are enough to win the war?  Didnt really help the alliance hold down planet earth.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Corvus74 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...


rofl this post

this post is the prime example of childish optimism and false hope.  Read your codex, the reapers cant be defeated conventionally.  the only times a reaper is defeated in the games is through UNCONVENTIONAL MEANS.

Read up on the Turians.  They took down a number of Reaper capital ships via conventional means during the initial attack on Palaven, and it was only the Reapers sending a force to bypass them and start bombing the planet that forced the battle.

so what you're saying is that the reapers are easily able to circumvent our conventional means and force us into a losing situation?

[Elyiia]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Sovereign was fought by a single Alliance fleet and the Citadel defence fleet. The Citadel defence fleet got demolished, not by Sov, but by the Geth because they didn't listen to Shepard. Sovereign's involvement in that fight was to ram a few ships. They were also using kinetic weapons, not heat weapons like thanix canons. We don't even know if it was because Shepard killed Saren that his sheilds went down, it's speculated that was the cause but that doesn't make it true. Especially in a Codex that's so inconsistant.

And we had access to that Prothean data for fifty years, why did we only discover the magic probe when the Reapers arrived?

Not a single fleet.  at least the first, third, and fifth alliance fleets were present in the battle.  We dont have that many fleets.  We lose ENTIRE fleets when the reapers make their invasion.  

Also I wasnt talking about how many of our dudes got killed, i was talking about the fact that we were unable to put a DENT in that thing until it went offline when you killed saren.

Also yeah its pretty consistent that killing saren is what brought it offline.  it wouldnt just let go of the citadel and float arround doing nothing like it was brain dead just because its shields went offline due to sustained fire from some fleets.  :

You think thanix canons are enough to win the war?  Didnt really help the alliance hold down planet earth.

The only fleet that was fighting Sovereign's Geth fleet once the defence fleet got blindsided was the fifth fleet.
http://masseffect.wi...ign#Mass_Effect

We don't know what destroying a Reapers shields does to the Reaper, the only time we see it the Reaper is destroyed immediately after. It could cause a surge that momentarily disables the Reaper, we don't know.

Show me one cutscene from ME3 where they used thanix canons.

[Raezaiel]

I would like to point out that the entire point of the mass relays, the citadel, and generally every single thing that happens to involve reapers prior to mass effect 3 is based on the fact that conventional warfare by combining the universes fleets works.


The stupidity of constructing a random device that no one understands and is clearly not finished is simply staggering. They could have built an immense and massive fleet with the secret shipyard they must have built for the crucible.

It reminds me of a short story called Superiorty by Arthur C. Clarke. Building things you know works is 100% better than building things that could work but are costly.

The number one reason conventional warfare would work in the current cycle is attrition. No new reapers are being built. In fact, if Arrival is to be believed, you could simply evacuate the solar system and smash a asteroid into the relay to devastate a signifigant portion of the reaper fleet.

Victory at any cost

Modifié par Raezaiel, 20 avril 2012 - 01:12 .

[hammyhamstersy]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

hammyhamstersy wrote...

I would LOVE to see Shep doing that!  I thought it was pretty hilarious that Shep got off the shuttle and fought the reaper on FOOT.  

Well I mean EVERYONE complained about that turret sequence from e3, even the crowds at e3.  shepard heard us and said "Hang on i'm just gonna run back and forth on a shelf instead"

Personally i wish the shelf scene didnt have to involve 3 lazerblasts to the face!!  :/

also a thresher maw probably couldnt beat soverign or harbinger.  Look at it this way: Reapers were so strong that Bioware had to create little baby reapers just so we'd be able to blow some up in this game.  The art book basicly says this outright.  

The first time I played that scene I was first dumbfounded and then I just started laughing hysterically.  The fact that this 'baby' reaper had this slow ass cannon was even more funny and the fact that you can ROLL out of its way.  And also the fact that Shep knew it would work!!  

So that's right the way to win this war against reaper conventionally is to STOP, DROP, and ROLL.  Forget Thanix cannons, just implement the tech that allows your starships to strafe and roll and shoot.  Granted your ships will be filled with vomit afterwards but hey if it works why not??  

[EricHVela]

@ OP: point #2. The alliance starts to tear apart a Reaper and the alliance fighters manage to survive the reaper fighters if your EMS is high enough. There are two cutscenes for the Sword attack. (1 cutscene for Hammer fail and 1 for Shield.)

[Klijpope]

It's patently obvious that there is zero chance of a conventional victory. Not only does pretty much everyone say it is totally impossible (Hackett onwards), given how insanely outnumbered the galactic species are and how unprepared they are for it (Shep's warnings aren't really heeded, after all), it's inconceivable they could pull it off.

ME3 is the ultimate Koyabashi Maru - that Shep was able to change the program means Shep>Kirk.

[Elyiia]

hammyhamstersy wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

hammyhamstersy wrote...

I would LOVE to see Shep doing that!  I thought it was pretty hilarious that Shep got off the shuttle and fought the reaper on FOOT.  

Well I mean EVERYONE complained about that turret sequence from e3, even the crowds at e3.  shepard heard us and said "Hang on i'm just gonna run back and forth on a shelf instead"

Personally i wish the shelf scene didnt have to involve 3 lazerblasts to the face!!  :/

also a thresher maw probably couldnt beat soverign or harbinger.  Look at it this way: Reapers were so strong that Bioware had to create little baby reapers just so we'd be able to blow some up in this game.  The art book basicly says this outright.  

The first time I played that scene I was first dumbfounded and then I just started laughing hysterically.  The fact that this 'baby' reaper had this slow ass cannon was even more funny and the fact that you can ROLL out of its way.  And also the fact that Shep knew it would work!!  

So that's right the way to win this war against reaper conventionally is to STOP, DROP, and ROLL.  Forget Thanix cannons, just implement the tech that allows your starships to strafe and roll and shoot.  Granted your ships will be filled with vomit afterwards but hey if it works why not??  

"SHEPARD?! How do we defeat the Reapers"
"Watch this: www.youtube.com/watch"

[humes spork]

Raezaiel wrote...

It reminds me of a short story called Superiorty by Arthur C. Clarke. Building things you know works is 100% better than building things that could work but are costly.

The number one reason conventional warfare would work in the current cycle is attrition. No new reapers are being built. In fact, if Arrival is to be believed, you could simply evacuate the solar system and smash a asteroid into the relay to devastate a signifigant portion of the reaper fleet.

Victory at any cost

The Reaper war codex entries answer each and every single one of these allegations and complaints in turn, you are aware? You're free to continue raising these points and maintain your own opinion, but doing so directly contradicts Word of God as to what's going on.

So that's right the way to win this war against reaper conventionally is to STOP, DROP, and ROLL.  Forget Thanix cannons, just implement the tech that allows your starships to strafe and roll and shoot.  Granted your ships will be filled with vomit afterwards but hey if it works why not??   

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a Reaper!

Modifié par humes spork, 20 avril 2012 - 01:40 .

[Elyiia]

humes spork wrote...

Raezaiel wrote...

It reminds me of a short story called Superiorty by Arthur C. Clarke. Building things you know works is 100% better than building things that could work but are costly.

The number one reason conventional warfare would work in the current cycle is attrition. No new reapers are being built. In fact, if Arrival is to be believed, you could simply evacuate the solar system and smash a asteroid into the relay to devastate a signifigant portion of the reaper fleet.

Victory at any cost

The Reaper war codex entries answer each and every single one of these allegations and complaints in turn, you are aware?

The Codex is incredibly inconsistant.

[humes spork]

Elyiia wrote...

The Codex is incredibly inconsistant.

Like what, for example? I'm interested to hear this.

[Elyiia]

humes spork wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Codex is incredibly inconsistant.

Like what, for example? I'm interested to hear this.

Not being able to use FTL drives for suicide ships being one when we have examples of it happening.
Alliance military being fitted with thanix canons despite them never actually being used is another.

There's more in the thread, if you read the whole thing.

[Rodia Driftwood]

Elyiia wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've never understood the counterpoint of "Plot armor" as a reason why the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons.

If they could, couldn't one simply state that it's "Plot weakness?" It would seem that "Plot Armor" could be used for any defense of a story playing through in a way a person doesn't want since ultimately it's up to the writers to lay out the narrative?

Random question, do you have any contact with the ME team? Can you ask them what happens if Javik touches a Reaper? I'd make a Twitter account to bug them but I don't want to make a Twitter account :3

THIS!
Holy maccaroni. That would be awesome!.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

first and third fleet were in the battle of the citadel and helped defend the destiny ascension.

reguardless, an entire fleet was unable to damage one actual reaper until shepard sabotaged it and sent it offline.  this is brought up time and time again throughout the series.  these things are really good at what they do.  Superior technology will always win against numbers and tactics, this has been proven time and time again throughout history. 
Look at the battles between american colonists and native americans.  They had bows and arrows, knowledge of the land, fit, willing and able men willing to die fighting, and numbers to surpass us.  we had guns.  this was enough to win.  even if they were able to get some guns and kill some of our men, we still had more guns, we had cannons, we had the best damn guns in the world.  beyond that we had better lines of communication and a stronger form of self-sustinance.  "How the West was won" was with guns.  the reapers have guns and we have bows and arrows.  yeah we can build some thannix cannons of our own and maybe kill some reapers but they'll still overpower us with thier sheer numbers, overwhelming firepower, and survivability.  we cant win because they are just better than us in every way.

Raezaiel wrote...

I would like to point out that the entire point of the mass relays, the citadel, and generally every single thing that happens to involve reapers prior to mass effect 3 is based on the fact that conventional warfare by combining the universes fleets works.


The stupidity of constructing a random device that no one understands and is clearly not finished is simply staggering. They could have built an immense and massive fleet with the secret shipyard they must have built for the crucible.

It reminds me of a short story called Superiorty by Arthur C. Clarke. Building things you know works is 100% better than building things that could work but are costly.

The number one reason conventional warfare would work in the current cycle is attrition. No new reapers are being built. In fact, if Arrival is to be believed, you could simply evacuate the solar system and smash a asteroid into the relay to devastate a signifigant portion of the reaper fleet.

Victory at any cost

okay except that this is a prothean device, and research into prothean technology has been the one thing that has pushed our society forward.  every single prothean technology discovered in the mars archives has worked and evolved our technology.  why is this prothean device suddenly "dumb" and "stupid"?

No new reapers are being built, but the sheer number of reapers already in existence far outstrips our ability to kill them.  If we threw all our fleets at them and consistently destroyed reapers we wouldn't even take down 0.01% of all reapers in existence.  Even if we killed a thousand soverign class reapers we'd still lose the war.  You say war of attrition, but you're looking at it in a small scope ironicly.  Liara says we have enough resources to fund a year long war with the reapers, and that within a hundred years we'll have been completely destroyed by the reapers.  The reapers can keep fighting without stopping.  so can the geth, but the turians can't, the krogan can't, the humans can't.  they'll win because they have better guns, they'll win because they outnumber us, they'll win because they dont have to stop.

Also seriously.  throw an asteroid at the relay to kill the reapers?  You realise that in the time it would take to evacuate ships from that systems reapers would also leave through the relay?  How would....using more asteroids even work?  You're really oversimplifying things and not looking at the logistics of the situation.  :-0

[Sgt Stryker]

Elyiia wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Codex is incredibly inconsistant.

Like what, for example? I'm interested to hear this.

Not being able to use FTL drives for suicide ships being one when we have examples of it happening.
Alliance military being fitted with thanix canons despite them never being shown in cutscenes.

There's more in the thread, if you read the whole thing.

Fixed that for ya. 

[Subject9x]

the reapers were written to be unstoppable because it's easier to write the following scenario:
-unstoppable force must be countered with super one-off weapon/system.

a more difficult scenario but usually better when done is:
-seemingly unstoppable force stopped using tenacity, willpower, and a little luck. The difference between the player winning on their terms, or the plots. Mass Effect has always been about winning on the players terms.

ME3 only makes the reaper unstoppable because fleets forget tactics, reapers must be dumb, key characters forget key plot points from ME1..etc