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[grey_wind]

I've been thinking about this.
The problem with the plot of ME3 is that the Reapers abandon their usually strategy and tactics, like seizing the Citadel and shutting down the relay network. So in order to make them seem like the unstoppable threat that wiped out all previous civilizations, the writers overpowered them in terms of strength and numbers, or it would beggar belief how they had been so successful before this. This is why a conventional victory would undermine the Reapers as a threat, because the plot basically has them hold onto the idiot ball the entire game.
Now, had they not had the Reapers adandon their usual MO, then they could be written as something like a small but very powerful force whose numbers force them to conquer the galaxy piece by piece. If they had put more thought into having Shepard find a way to circumvent their obstacles like the shutdown of the relay network and amass a united galactic armada despite the Reapers' divide and conquer tactics, a conventional victory would have been far, far more satisfying and would not diminish the Reapers as the villains they were built up to be either.

Modifié par grey_wind, 21 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[MakeMineMako]

Mria wrote...

 idk if some 1 already said that (i wont go 14 pages to check that) but:

the reapers have destroyed countless civilizations and have adapted over the cycles (most likely adding their techonlogy to their own not only their biomass.)

the only reason the galatic forces are able to fight reapers in the amount mentioned in the codex is because of techonology gathered from sovering and most likely the energy the reapers lost to reach the milky way wich proboly weakened their energy cap.

thanxix cannons are only avaible thankfully to the turians that developed the technology after they stolen sovering main gun and even then they had to make it weaker (imo) due to the conventional ships can sustain that much firepower

the barriers that the normandy has doesn't save them from the reapers entirely mainly because the collectors ship dont have the same fire power as a reaper due ( i would say 1/2 of a reaper firepower) even then a reaper dread could easily rip a alliance dread, as seen in the cutscene.

The only Alliance dreadnoughts I saw in ME3's Earth operation were the ones escorting the Crucible. Almost all of the Alliance ships I saw in the opening stages of Sword group's assault were Alliance cruisers.

[chemiclord]

TheMerchantMan wrote...

It hurts everytime I read a post like this, because it means you've forgotten the entire point of Mass Effect 1.

Remember how every cycle usually lost the Citadel and control of the mass relays at the beginning of the Reaper invasion? 

That is why the Reaper's won. It had  nothing to do with the Reapers truly being so powerful but that the Reapers deliberately trapped and seperated the entire galaxy, slowly picking them off through sheer strength of numbers.

This cycle is different because the Mass Relays are still operational and thus unlike in all other cycles the entire galaxy can be brought to any single fight against the Reapers. The original theme of the game, unity/strentgh = survival. That is the advantage that this cycle had.

Great.  This cycle has mobility that other ones didn't.

Doesn't change the fact that established evidence has one Reaper capital ship holding off FLEETS, and needing a collective orbital strike to bring down one of the Destroyers (ya know, the little ones).

All the movement in the galaxy doesn't help much when you need a hundred ships to bring down one of the enemy.  Just, please, for the love of God, this is one of the elements to ME3 that are actually consistent and make sense.  Let it go.

[MakeMineMako]

chemiclord wrote...

TheMerchantMan wrote...

It hurts everytime I read a post like this, because it means you've forgotten the entire point of Mass Effect 1.

Remember how every cycle usually lost the Citadel and control of the mass relays at the beginning of the Reaper invasion? 

That is why the Reaper's won. It had  nothing to do with the Reapers truly being so powerful but that the Reapers deliberately trapped and seperated the entire galaxy, slowly picking them off through sheer strength of numbers.

This cycle is different because the Mass Relays are still operational and thus unlike in all other cycles the entire galaxy can be brought to any single fight against the Reapers. The original theme of the game, unity/strentgh = survival. That is the advantage that this cycle had.

Great.  This cycle has mobility that other ones didn't.

Doesn't change the fact that established evidence has one Reaper capital ship holding off FLEETS, and needing a collective orbital strike to bring down one of the Destroyers (ya know, the little ones).

All the movement in the galaxy doesn't help much when you need a hundred ships to bring down one of the enemy.  Just, please, for the love of God, this is one of the elements to ME3 that are actually consistent and make sense.  Let it go.

I don't know where people keep getting that it took the entire Quarian military fleet to bring down that Destroyer. I saw only a handful of ships firing. And they looked like standard mass accelerator rounds.

[chemiclord]

Did I say that? I said a collective orbital strike. Which it was.

[A0170]

TheMerchantMan wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

The only reason we can't win conditionally was because of writing.

Yes, but it wouldn't make sense otherwise. If you write about a force that's been able to totally inihilate at least 2000 other civilizations, what makes you think that ours is special? This is the "humans are at the center of the universe" argument, which is wrong, wrong, wrong. The sun does not revolve around the Earth, and humanity is not "special" in it's ability to destroy the Reapers.

We won this ware because we were very, very lucky. That's it, end of story.

It hurts everytime I read a post like this, because it means you've forgotten the entire point of Mass Effect 1.

Remember how every cycle usually lost the Citadel and control of the mass relays at the beginning of the Reaper invasion? 

That is why the Reaper's won. It had  nothing to do with the Reapers truly being so powerful but that the Reapers deliberately trapped and seperated the entire galaxy, slowly picking them off through sheer strength of numbers.

This cycle is different because the Mass Relays are still operational and thus unlike in all other cycles the entire galaxy can be brought to any single fight against the Reapers. The original theme of the game, unity/strentgh = survival. That is the advantage that this cycle had.

Right, we do have the advantage of having the relays still open. But remember, the Citadel is under Reaper control by the time of Priority: Earth. They know by now that the Keepers have been tampered with. How long before they overcome the initial sabotage by the Prothean scientists on Ilos and proceed to shut down the relay network like they had done before in all the other cycles? Also, Starkid could always do it himself, yet why he doesn't is still a huge mystery.

With that point, as it is now the ending of ME3 already throws ME1 out the window. I'd rather it not be this way, because storywise, I thought ME1 was arguably the strongest of the entire series. After all, why would Sovereign even bother going through all the effort if Starkid could just do it? Maybe the Prothean scientists from Ilos managed to tamper with Starkid too. But if that explanation, or something like it is not included in the EC, then ME1 has pretty much already been discarded by the devs.

Also, don't discard the sheer power of the Reapers. Even without having control of the Citadel at first, look at what the Reapers were able to do. Khar'shan and the rest of the Batarian hegemony fell pretty quickly. Earth's defenses, despite the massive fleets assembled in its orbit and over at Arcturus Station, were wiped out in a matter of minutes. And even after wiping the floor with the Alliance and the Hegemony, with both being some of the most powerful military forces of the galaxy, the Reapers still managed to do the same thing with the Turians, Asari, and etc.

No way would we be able to maintain that same kind of galaxy wide offensive. Imagine how many ships and men we lost in Prioroity: Earth alone. And that operation, I might add, was for escorting and activating the Crucible. Think of how many more ships and men we'd have to commit if we were actually launching an actual "D-Dayesque" offensive to liberate Earth.

Even if they were to succeed in retaking Earth, the losses would be severe. And now, they'd have to figure out to hold onto Earth and defend it from the inevitable Reaper counterattack. At the same time, they have to work on retaking the other homeworlds and colonies that the Reapers control.

So not only would you have to launch another force that is equal, if not greater than the size of Sword fleet to liberate Palaven, you'd also have to leave enough ships and men to adequately guard Earth too. See how streched thin our forces already are? Now couple that with the need to defend both Earth and Palaven (if we manage to retake it), while sending another force to retake Thessia. The logistical problems would be a nightmare. Not only are our supplies short enough as it is, with the Reapers controlling most if not all of the major planets in the galaxy, coupled with the massive refugee problem, you now have to find a way to regularly feed and maintain men and hsips as well.

And again, with our defenses already stretched so thin, the Reapers could just come back and retake Earth or Palaven, while we're focused on somewhere else like Thessia. With this kind of back and forth, there's no way we can hold out for long.

[Coachdongwiffle]

I think the important part is that why give us and EMS number if we don't get to use our military strength. Even we flat out never had a shot at winning the war why did we bother building the war. We would of just had to ask each species for it's to scientist to help build the crucible. At the last second they say we need the ships to protect the crucible as it docks buts that's w/e our ships really wouldn't even slow down a hoard of Reapers as they charged the Crucible. but still I think we would of given the Reapers more than they could handle. were also forgetting TIM did successfully find a way to control the ground units. Plus there just ships so get Sheppard onto a ship and take it out from within there are unique ways it could of played out rather than just oh hey look there is a super weapon that can take them out.

[MakeMineMako]

chemiclord wrote...

Did I say that? I said a collective orbital strike. Which it was.

'Collective orbital strike' can be interpreted in several ways.

And in the past, I've actually seen posts saying it took the bulk of the Quarian fleet to nail the Destroyer. Which is ridiculous.

[A0170]

grey_wind wrote...

I've been thinking about this.
The problem with the plot of ME3 is that the Reapers abandon their usually strategy and tactics, like seizing the Citadel and shutting down the relay network. So in order to make them seem like the unstoppable threat that wiped out all previous civilizations, the writers overpowered them in terms of strength and numbers, or it would beggar belief how they had been so successful before this. This is why a conventional victory would undermine the Reapers as a threat, because the plot basically has them hold onto the idiot ball the entire game.
Now, had they not had the Reapers adandon their usual MO, then they could be written as something like a small but very powerful force whose numbers force them to conquer the galaxy piece by piece. If they had put more thought into having Shepard find a way to circumvent their obstacles like the shutdown of the relay network and amass a united galactic armada despite the Reapers' divide and conquer tactics, a conventional victory would have been far, far more satisfying and would not diminish the Reapers as the villains they were built up to be either.

I definitely agree with what you're saying about the Reapers abandoning their tactics. For example, I didn't like how the Reapers were only compelled to capture the Citadel after the Illusive Man told them about the Crucible. The Citadel can control the mass relay network, and the Reapers know that the Keepers have been tampered with. Why wouldn't they take back the Citadel asap so that they could fix whatever the Prothean scientists did and regain the advantage that they had in the previous cycles? The Citadel fleet was barely able to stop Sovereign, what could they possibly do then against the entire Reaper armada?

[Coachdongwiffle]

grey_wind wrote...

I've been thinking about this.
The problem with the plot of ME3 is that the Reapers abandon their usually strategy and tactics, like seizing the Citadel and shutting down the relay network. So in order to make them seem like the unstoppable threat that wiped out all previous civilizations, the writers overpowered them in terms of strength and numbers, or it would beggar belief how they had been so successful before this. This is why a conventional victory would undermine the Reapers as a threat, because the plot basically has them hold onto the idiot ball the entire game.
Now, had they not had the Reapers adandon their usual MO, then they could be written as something like a small but very powerful force whose numbers force them to conquer the galaxy piece by piece. If they had put more thought into having Shepard find a way to circumvent their obstacles like the shutdown of the relay network and amass a united galactic armada despite the Reapers' divide and conquer tactics, a conventional victory would have been far, far more satisfying and would not diminish the Reapers as the villains they were built up to be either.

Idk if I'm reading this but I like what I think your trying to say. Maybe the Reapers shouldn't be so great in number...it would of been cooler if they had a real reason for the whole Citadel is a trap thing. I just don't understand why they make all organics develope along a singular path if they could just swoop in and with virtually no resistence destroy the galaxy. (which spend thousands of years setting up ME1 instead of just charging in and catching us off surprise then taking the Citadel by force?) ME3 just doesn't fit ME1 but idk. 

[Elyiia]

The Crucible being a Reaper trap would have made far more sense that improving upon something that you have no idea how it works.

[Meltemph]

I don't think the problem is that we had to win non-conventionally, but in the way it was done. We didn't find the "philosopher stone", like the beginning seemed to point to. What we got as a magic beam, with a partial Deus Ex Child mixed in with it.

If you are going to go that route dont take away from everything else you did up to that point, just to have a "fanciful" way of finishing off the bad guys. With the way it ended, the ending ATE everything you did prior do to its...completely alien technology for this universe that was created.

I would expect a device like that from something like Star Trek, but not ME...

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

The Crucible being a Reaper trap would have made far more sense that improving upon something that you have no idea how it works.

That was actually what I was hoping before. It would've totally fit into the Reapers MO with leaving tech (or in this case plans for some tech) around to manipulate us.

Having to find out in the end that the Crucible was nothing but a giant resource pit or worse would've made for an amazing plot twist.

Modifié par A0170, 21 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[MakeMineMako]

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

I think the important part is that why give us and EMS number if we don't get to use our military strength. Even we flat out never had a shot at winning the war why did we bother building the war. We would of just had to ask each species for it's to scientist to help build the crucible. At the last second they say we need the ships to protect the crucible as it docks buts that's w/e our ships really wouldn't even slow down a hoard of Reapers as they charged the Crucible. but still I think we would of given the Reapers more than they could handle. were also forgetting TIM did successfully find a way to control the ground units. Plus there just ships so get Sheppard onto a ship and take it out from within there are unique ways it could of played out rather than just oh hey look there is a super weapon that can take them out.

EMS would haved made more sense if so much hadn't been retconned for ME3 just to make room for the lame-assed MacGuffin plot.

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Crucible being a Reaper trap would have made far more sense that improving upon something that you have no idea how it works.

That was actually what I was hoping before. It would've totally fit into the Reapers MO with leaving tech (or in this case plans for some tech) around to manipulate us.

Having to find out in the end that the Crucible was nothing but a giant resource pit or worse would've made for an amazing plot twist.

I could have lived with the Crucible being a Reaper trap but they understimate Shepard's ability not to give a f***, shattering their communication network or something and leaving them vulnerable to our military. At least that would fit with the theme.

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Crucible being a Reaper trap would have made far more sense that improving upon something that you have no idea how it works.

That was actually what I was hoping before. It would've totally fit into the Reapers MO with leaving tech (or in this case plans for some tech) around to manipulate us.

Having to find out in the end that the Crucible was nothing but a giant resource pit or worse would've made for an amazing plot twist.

I could have lived with the Crucible being a Reaper trap but they understimate Shepard's ability not to give a f***, shattering their communication network or something and leaving them vulnerable to our military. At least that would fit with the theme.

Nice, that fits well with their established arrogance too. It would've also let us see the fruits of our efforts, with us getting to see all the fleets we gathered being able to take down the Reaper fleet in Earth's orbit. My only question though is what about the Reapers in the other systems of the galaxy? How would we able to deal with them with most of our fleets gathered at Earth?

Modifié par A0170, 21 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Crucible being a Reaper trap would have made far more sense that improving upon something that you have no idea how it works.

That was actually what I was hoping before. It would've totally fit into the Reapers MO with leaving tech (or in this case plans for some tech) around to manipulate us.

Having to find out in the end that the Crucible was nothing but a giant resource pit or worse would've made for an amazing plot twist.

I could have lived with the Crucible being a Reaper trap but they understimate Shepard's ability not to give a f***, shattering their communication network or something and leaving them vulnerable to our military. At least that would fit with the theme.

Nice, that fits well with their established arrogance too. It would've also let us see the fruits of our efforts, with us getting to see all the fleets we gathered being able to take down the Reaper fleet in Earth's orbit. My only question though is what about the Reapers in the other systems of the galaxy? How would we able to deal with them with most of our fleets gathered at Earth?

I'm not sure, I'm not a writer. But seeing as the majority of the Reapers are at Earth, we could feasibly take take out the splinter Reaper groups with our fleets. If you take out the communications, they wouldn't even know what had happened only that something had happened.

[Jestina]

Harbinger:The organics built a gigantic space penis. WTF.

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Crucible being a Reaper trap would have made far more sense that improving upon something that you have no idea how it works.

That was actually what I was hoping before. It would've totally fit into the Reapers MO with leaving tech (or in this case plans for some tech) around to manipulate us.

Having to find out in the end that the Crucible was nothing but a giant resource pit or worse would've made for an amazing plot twist.

I could have lived with the Crucible being a Reaper trap but they understimate Shepard's ability not to give a f***, shattering their communication network or something and leaving them vulnerable to our military. At least that would fit with the theme.

Nice, that fits well with their established arrogance too. It would've also let us see the fruits of our efforts, with us getting to see all the fleets we gathered being able to take down the Reaper fleet in Earth's orbit. My only question though is what about the Reapers in the other systems of the galaxy? How would we able to deal with them with most of our fleets gathered at Earth?

I'm not sure, I'm not a writer. But seeing as the majority of the Reapers are at Earth, we could feasibly take take out the splinter Reaper groups with our fleets. If you take out the communications, they wouldn't even know what had happened only that something had happened.

Right, giving us the advantage for the first time and making a conventioanl victory not only possible, but   acceptable lorewise. Maybe you shouldn't sell your writing skills short .

[A0170]

Jestina wrote...

Harbinger:The organics built a gigantic space penis. WTF.

LOL.

Harbiringer: And... what hell is it doing with the Citadel???

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...

Right, giving us the advantage for the first time and making a conventioanl victory not only possible, but   acceptable lorewise. Maybe you shouldn't sell your writing skills short .

If it was backup plan incase they couldn't just jump to the Citadel it would, at least, give some credit to the Reapers tactics. If it's a trap, the information is there including that they "need" the Citadel in order to beat the Reapers. By taking it just before they can use it it similtaniously sucker punches morale and forces the organics into a fight on the Reaper's terms. Then the organics are forced into throwing their troops for a suicide run for the beam to open the Citadel. If their strongest makes it to the beam, then they activate the Reapers trap.

Changes their tactics from derpy to rather smart.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

A0170 wrote...
Also, Starkid could always do it himself, yet why he doesn't is still a huge mystery.

Why would starkid be able to do that? 

Didnt the protheans sabotage the citadel?  

Also we dont know what (if any) power his program has.  his functionality may be entirely limited to local citadel systems (involved with moving stuff arround in the core) and not the relay network.  He isn't able to close the arms that you open, (why not close the arms again and crush the crucible or move the station enough to cause it to miss its docking) which means he doesnt even have control over THAT.  As far as I can see the StarChild program has very limited capabilities.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 22 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[Drummernate]

I could beat them conventionally.....

Have Javik troll them to death.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

Plus there just ships so get Sheppard onto a ship and take it out from within there are unique ways it could of played out rather than just oh hey look there is a super weapon that can take them out.

what would taking out ONE reaper accomplish?  "Good job shepard, now go kill the other 9000"


edit: oh my gaw drummernate's avatar is the most kawaii of all desu's.  :3

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 22 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Right, giving us the advantage for the first time and making a conventioanl victory not only possible, but   acceptable lorewise. Maybe you shouldn't sell your writing skills short .

If it was backup plan incase they couldn't just jump to the Citadel it would, at least, give some credit to the Reapers tactics. If it's a trap, the information is there including that they "need" the Citadel in order to beat the Reapers. By taking it just before they can use it it similtaniously sucker punches morale and forces the organics into a fight on the Reaper's terms. Then the organics are forced into throwing their troops for a suicide run for the beam to open the Citadel. If their strongest makes it to the beam, then they activate the Reapers trap.

Changes their tactics from derpy to rather smart.

Brilliant!