Gabriel Arcaeus wrote...
Incorrect on two counts. First, he said, "...just pulled a turn that would shear any of our ships in half." which is clearly a statement made as an exaggeration to provide emphasis. There is no reason to believe a vessel that size, Reaper or not, could make a tighter turn than a fighter. Second, they are more maneuverable, but only outside of combat. In combat, the manipulation of their mass to such a degree as to be so highly maneuverable would likely affect other systems, such as kinetic barriers. This is probably why the codex uses the phrase "they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations."
You're forgetting that Reaper ships have a massive and powerful enough mass effect core to allow them to land on planets that our cruisers and dreadnoughts couldn't. Such a powerful core indicates that making sharp turns in combat is possible. Like you said, it would mean that they would have to lower their kinetic barriers for the tougher turns. Besides, I used that statement to show how they have the ability to dodge our shots fired, which may or not constitute a need for a sharp turn to do it. But again they don't because they can just shrug them off and doing such would leave them more vulnerable. Which goes into my greater of point of saying how our ships would need to position themselves close enough to the Reaper fleet in order to do some damage. This will of course allow the Reapers to swoop in and inflict heavy casualites on our ships. Also, why would the game exaggerate to provide emphasis on how maneuvarable Sovereign is? That really makes no sense. The statement about Sovereign's maneuvarability came from the best and most experienced pilot in the Alliance navy, and I'll take his word for it when he tells me how maneuvarable an enemy ship is.
Or, there's this excerpt from The Battle of Palaven:
"Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.
The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat."
The retreat order/massive casualties isn't clarified as a retreat of all available ships in his fleet, or just the dreadnouights. in all likelihood, it's ALL the ships in his fleet. Regardless, this debunks a small portion of your opinions. Namely, that Reapers are more maneuverable in combat, that precision jumps are a statistical nightmare to make in this fashion and that they would be quickly overwhelmed.
His forces were divided which would have weakened their ability to engage in defensive combat. Additionally, the codex states that SOME capital ships carry Oculi, not all. The destroyers jumped away from that section of the battle, thus indicating that the Reapers use tactics unbecoming of your projections.
Ah but you've neglected to mention the first part of the Codex entry.
"When Taetrus fell, the turians knew little about the Reapers except that they wanted to enrage the turians. Staying calm, the turians massed force around Palaven, their homeworld. Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, in what became known as the "Fifteen-Minute Plan," stationed only two carriers, Undaunted and Resolute, near the system's relay. When the Reaper fleet emerged, the carriers launched swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones. These were quickly destroyed, but the drones transmitted vital data on the Reapers' effective range, fleet composition, and exact location. The turians' other ships then deployed to defend the system in earnest."
In this case, precision jumping is able to be used because the Turians stationed "swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones" near the relay to gather intel on the "effective range, fleet composition, and exact location" of the Reaper fleet. So to me, this would imply that without this information, such a jump would've been impossible. How else can you account for the fact that Coronati was able to jump a massive fleet of dreadnoughts and cruisers right in the middle of a group of Reaper capitals without having them smash into each other? Or maybe some of the ships did, implying that even with the impressive amount of intel collected, precision jump FTL is still not as effective as one would think. And look at how much it cost the Turians just to gain this intel. Sure no lives were lost, but two carriers, and swarms of valuable spy drones and unmanned fighters were still destroyed for a tactic that ultimately didn't work and led to the fall of their homeworld. Is it worth such a sacrifice? So unless the writers come out with a statement retconning this issue, I'll stick with the idea here that precision jumping is impossible without a ton of intel gathered first.
See thats how inconcistency and hyperbole from the later two games about the Reaper's capabilities have landed us in this situtation. Like I outlined before, in ME1 its established that Reaper capital ships are much more maneuvarable than our ships of a similar size. Here its vice versa, so good catch. But that doesn't make sense, considering again how large and powerful a Reaper's mass effect core is. Wouldn't that mean that their ability to maneuver would outclass our ships then?
And I'm aware of this Codex entry and that the Turians were utterly beaten when they attempted this tactic. Notice how the Reaper force divided itself too and were able to both inflict heavy casualites on Coronati's fleet and wipe out Palaven's defenses. Coronati remember had much of the entire Turian fleet at his disposal. The Reapers had a considerably smaller force of a few dozen or so ships. I also posted the codex entry that states why this is a "poor tactic" and it shows right here. Coronati was forced in full retreat, cut off from Palaven, unable to fully destroy a much smaller force than his own, while the Reapers burned the Turian homeworld from orbit.
Or, Coronati could call BS and do it anyway.
Right, again needing to sacrifice two carriers and at least two flight groups worth of unmanned fighters and spy drones to gain the necessary intel to pull off a jump like that. And he still lost, despite again having much of the Turian armada at his disposal against a few dozen Reaper ships.
Cornonati disagrees. It's not useless, just situation specific...also, it requires that you purchase a sling for your massive bollocks.
I used the reasoning that it is too situation specific to be used on a consistent basis, making this tactic useless. The codex again states that this is a poor tactic, and Coronati's failed effort proves it. Although your right, he did have a massive pair of bollocks to try. I admire his tactical brilliance, but to paraphrase what General Corinthus and Shepard said on Menae, you can use all the tactics you want, but ultimately its useless against the Reapers and their sheer power. Maybe they can come up with more successful tactics down along the road, but by that time would the allies be in any position to still win the war, considering how many ships, men, and resource centers/planets they must've lost to the Reapers?
Actually, that Mass Effect reference is in relation to an FTL jump made utilizing a Mass Relay, so...no. Additionally, every time someone comes out of basic FTL in a cinematic after that point, awkwardly with Mass Relays as well,
the jumps are spot on.
True, but I did point out above how Coronati's usage of precision FTL jumping was allegedly feasible due to the high amout of intel he acquired before hand. Therefore, until the writers come out with something that retcons the whole issue, IMO precision jumping and its effectiveness will remain a questionable tactic because we simply do not know how precise it can be, with or without intel.
Agreed.
Thank you, I might add that you certainly brought up some great points, backed up with some solid sources. Tip of my hat to you sir.
Actually, it isn't. The general purpose of conventional warfare is to weaken or destroy the opponent's military force, thereby negating its ability to engage in conventional warfare. Given that this tactic would do just that, coupled with it basically being a stupidly huge EMP that only targets Reaper shields (for some reason) points towards it being a very conventional tactic, indeed. With this functionality, it can't even be considered a WMD anymore. How long the shields stay down is another matter entirely, though...so the plausibility of such a weapon existing as well as the applicability of said weapon does come into question.
Here's where I disagree. Yes, the purpose of conventional warfare is to weaken or destroy the enemy's opposing force. But in this case the Crucible is unconventional because its usage as a tactic is neither normal, nor is it an everyday part of our established military doctrine. After all, chemical warfare and nuclear weapons fulfills the same capacity of weakening and destroying your opponent, but neither are hardly considered conventional war tactics. Also, whether or not the Crucible sends out an EMP wave that only targets the Reaper shields is entirely up to the player. Remember, if your EMS is too low and destroy is chosen for example, we do see a cutscene of the wave destroying the soldiers and buildings on Earth. While it is is unclear that this low EMS wave would be as destructive to the other parts of the galaxy, one would assume it would be. Also, because the wave was able to destroy all of the Reapers if the red option was chosen, the Crucible IMO consititutes as a WMD that targets only the Reapers, if the player's EMS is high enough. If not, well the galaxy and its remaining population and buildings will be left entirely devastated by the wave's energy.
Modifié par A0170, 06 mai 2012 - 04:47 .
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