444 réponses à ce sujet

[A0170]

Tleining wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Yes, I said that 4 dreadnoughts could take down a capital ship. But I also stated how risky that is. Even if you were to get in good firing range, you'd lose a ton of escort ships in the process, maybe a dreadnought or two. Now if they're at least a hundred Reaper capitals, and if you lose 1-4 dreadnoughts taking down each capital, then it will eventually pile up. At best, and by that I'm considering the average loss of 2 dreadnoughts per 1 Reaper capital destroyed ratio, with all your dreadnoughts destroyed, you'll end up with around 42 Reaper capital ships destroyed if you do the math. That leaves you with around 58 Reaper capital ships and no dreadnoughts.

As for fighters, I also mentioned how it would take "many", proably a couple of squadrons, to take down one destoryer judging by the Codex and what we have seen. How many would it take with a Reaper Capital, with at least hundreds of Occuli defending it? An air wing of around 85 fihgters would be hard pressed to take them down, even if they're all armed with Thanix cannons. And if they do, how many fighters will they lose?

Also, Occuli have power lasers derived from the Reaper main gus too. Considering your argument about how effective an Alliance air wing armed with Thanix cannons would be, imagine hundreds of Occuli descending upon the Alliance ships? The Alliance fleets would be devastated.

As Cains, that might work if you can produce enough. But what if they just stay in orbit, blasting us from above and dropping in husks to do the dirty work?

Dreadnoughts:
Yes, which is why the Dreadnoughts shouldn't fight the Reapers. At least not directly. Send in the Fighters to keep the Reaper-Weapons busy and THEN bring the Dreadnoughts in.

Fighters:
The Fighters we see in the Game are NOT using the Thanix Cannon. So yes, it would take a lot of Fighters to take down a DESTROYER WITHOUT using the Thanix. With the Thanix we should get better Results.
The Occuli would be a Problem, yes. But the Normandy managed to evade and one-shot them.
Though i still don't understand WHY the Reapers have them. It seems to be just another Plot-Device. Sovereign didn't have one. Derelict Reaper didn't have one. Reapers on Galaxy Map don't have one. In the Attack on Earth the Reapers suddenly have swarms

Cains:
The Normandy could mass-Produce Weapons. And seeing how Mordin/Normandy's Engineers developed the Weapon....
If the Destroyers stay in Orbit.... can they? We never got any indication that the Destroyers were even able to fight from Orbit. Right now it seems they can only fight on the Ground or at least close to the Ground.

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Who said a fighter-mounted Thanix cannon could be anywhere near as powerful as one on a cruiser or dreadnought?

^This. And maybe you're right. Maybe those fighters don't have Thanix cannons, which I think is the case too. But consider why they wouldn't have them. 1.) Maybe its too expensive and therefore impractical to arm hundreds of fighters with it. 2.) Maybe, like Sgt. Stryker said, they just aren't as effective as a Cruiser or a Dreadnought's Thanix cannons, which by all accounts, would take a continual volley just to do some damage.

Also, the Normandy was up against two, maybe three Occuli. I'm talking about hundreds. And look how much damage just two Occuli were able to do, cutting through the Normandy's shields and armor to sneak onboard its shuttle bay.

As for Cains, it takes thousands of whatever measures of Iridium to produce. And the Normandy again was a state of the art ship with a built in research lab. Can every Alliance warship claim to have a facility onboard like that? Probably not.

And yes, while you could make a lot of Cains, there would not be enough material to produce a Cain for every squad in every army. If that were the case, then we'd find them all over the place. Besides, you need to make sure that your forces have enough assault rifles (which as I remember require Iridium to produce), ammo, and etc also. We only found a few Cains on Priority: Earth because they were allocated to the Marine squads that were taking out those huge cannons. Obviously, it was for special circumstances.

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 01:26 .

[Asharad Hett]

tractrpl wrote...

Yes, but it wouldn't make sense otherwise. If you write about a force that's been able to totally inihilate at least 2000 other civilizations, what makes you think that ours is special? This is the "humans are at the center of the universe" argument, which is wrong, wrong, wrong. The sun does not revolve around the Earth, and humanity is not "special" in it's ability to destroy the Reapers.

I don't think our civilization is special.  I would say that our cycle was special.  The Protheans threw a gremlin into the grand plan.  After playing ME2, I felt that this cycle had a chance to defeat the reapers.  We had access to Reaper tech.  We had foreknowledge of their arrival.  We had the Keepers sabotaged (thanks to the Protheans).  This cycle was different, until the writers gave us ME3. 

Again I'll say, we couldn't win conventionally due to the plot provided in ME3.   We won conventionally in the first 2 games.

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 20 avril 2012 - 01:26 .

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

Well this cycle we were a lot more prepared than the previous cycles. That should count for something.

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Who said a fighter-mounted Thanix cannon could be anywhere near as powerful as one on a cruiser or dreadnought?

Don't you realize that "Thanix" is a magic word for "all powerful" rather than just meaning  "does more of its damage as heat than kinetic"?  Actually, I think Thanix is just a manufacturer, itsn't it?  That's why you have Thanix missiles, Thanix cannons,

And then we have all the people who act like M92s are useful against reapers because they apparently can't tell the difference between an anti aircraft gun and a starship...

The Cain gets used on a Hades Cannon, not a destroyer or capital ship.   Might as well say  "woah, I took out a gunship with that, I bet I could shoot down the Normandy!"   :innocent:

Right, you're using the Cain to disable the firing mechanism of that canon, not to destroy the reaper weilding it. Disabling that weapon is the goal. That Reaper had no armor plating around the gun, and it's kenetic barriers probably don't work because your within its barriers.  In other words, it wouldn't work on a destroyer because a destroyer would have its armor up.

[Delta9819]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

Well this cycle we were a lot more prepared than the previous cycles. That should count for something.

I wouldn't say prepared so much as dumb luck.

[RebelTitan428]

i wish in the opening scene it showed us canadians shooting hockey pucks at husks right by the gretzky statue...

no..?...just me....?

[Jestina]

Apparently there are no great generals in the ME universe, that's why they can't do it.

[tractrpl]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

Well this cycle we were a lot more prepared than the previous cycles. That should count for something.

The Protheans were actually more prepared. We just had the luck of the keepers not letting the Reapers through.  We were vastly underprepared for the Reapers compared to the Protheans.

[3rd-apex]

Good article. I tell people this stuff all the time and they don't listen to me. I hope people listen to you. I am tired of people complaining about the ending.

[tractrpl]

Asharad Hett wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Yes, but it wouldn't make sense otherwise. If you write about a force that's been able to totally inihilate at least 2000 other civilizations, what makes you think that ours is special? This is the "humans are at the center of the universe" argument, which is wrong, wrong, wrong. The sun does not revolve around the Earth, and humanity is not "special" in it's ability to destroy the Reapers.

I don't think our civilization is special.  I would say that our cycle was special.  The Protheans threw a gremlin into the grand plan.  After playing ME2, I felt that this cycle had a chance to defeat the reapers.  We had access to Reaper tech.  We had foreknowledge of their arrival.  We had the Keepers sabotaged (thanks to the Protheans).  This cycle was different, until the writers gave us ME3. 

Again I'll say, we couldn't win conventionally due to the plot provided in ME3.   We won conventionally in the first 2 games.

We won conventionally against one Reaper. That's not the same as against tens of thousands of Reaper ships.

Modifié par tractrpl, 20 avril 2012 - 01:31 .

[tractrpl]

3rd-apex wrote...

Good article. I tell people this stuff all the time and they don't listen to me. I hope people listen to you. I am tired of people complaining about the ending.

Oh I still complain about the ending, just not this part of the ending. I complain about starchild's logic. But the notion that the Reapers couldn't be defeated conventionally is quite obvious. That's like saying the Taliban could defeat the US on a conventional battlefield. They can't. That's why they use guerrilla warfare.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

tractrpl wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

Well this cycle we were a lot more prepared than the previous cycles. That should count for something.

The Protheans were actually more prepared. We just had the luck of the keepers not letting the Reapers through.  We were vastly underprepared for the Reapers compared to the Protheans.

The protheans weren't prepared they were just able to last a very long time. They had no warning of the reapers we however did and acted on it. Hell we were even able to develop weapons based off of reaper design before the invasion began (thanix cannon).

[tractrpl]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

The protheans weren't prepared they were just able to last a very long time. They had no warning of the reapers we however did and acted on it. Hell we were even able to develop weapons based off of reaper design before the invasion began (thanix cannon).

You need to listen to Javik again. They were highly prepared, they were just surprised by the citadel ambush.

[SNascimento]

Becasue we can't.

[A0170]

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

I would like to argue the entire premise of this topic. Every Quarian ship is equiped with highpower guns (didn't take that into account) not to mention the new super geth we helped create. then there is the Normandy which is a dominate force in battle despite being small. then there is sheppard who is a BA. If we really wanted to we could stand up to the Reapers. Just put Dreadnaught level weapons on non Dreadnots. put up Super canons (like the one mentioned in ME2) on ground level. it's a longshot but Reapers never really had to straight up fight before because they harvested uncoordinated cycles before us. We have advantages in things like the fact one fights better when fighting for one's survivel) we can always create more ships they can't just reproduce whenver they want. I think it would of been a possible fight but then again there is the Dues Ex machine and that does it's job I suppose

Yes, the Quarian ships are now all heavily armed. But remember that most of these ships are either civilian, salvaged, ancient, or a combination of the three. They could do some damage but they wouldn't be able to take it. 

The Normandy is BA, but like Shepard said its just one ship. No way it could take on a fleet of Reaper capitals all by itself. Thats why Hackett has Shepard and crew doing covert op missions like it was designed to do, instead of participating in naval engagements. And Shepard is the x factor in all of this, but with all the force and sheer numbers thats the Reapers bring, there's little he can do to stop them from mowing down each fleet in the galaxy.
Plus, they could just wait a hundred years and Shepard will be dead anyway. They have the luxury of time.

And I mentioned the super (Thanix) cannons, the Reapers have them too as we based them off of their technology. Also, all of our dreadnoughts are armed with them already, and it still takes 4 of them at decent range to take down just one Sovereign class. Imagine how many ships you would lose just to get in good firing range?
Thanix cannons on the ground wouldn't work because firing one off while within the atmosphere would cause some severe collateral damage (i.e. doing more harm than good) and the Reapers could A.) Dodge them and B.) Blast them from orbit.

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 01:47 .

[Ytook]

The reapers wouldn't be able to sustain a large level of attrition as each ship they lose is a massive drop on their fire power, the attrition rate is actually massively in our favour.

[Vormaerin]

This myth of the Thanix cannon is getting really tiresome. Its an improvement over the weapons we had before. Its not an uberweapon. It results in starship armament with superior shield penetration over straight kinetic energy weapons.

There's no evidence that thanix cannons are some one size fits all device. A fighter doesn't produce nearly the energy output that a larger ship does. The engineers mention that the thanix you install on the Normandy (by space magic with no need for refit time) increase the draw on the main power. The Normandy is repeatedly declared to be unable to face heavier ships in straight up combat (like the cerberus cruiser, for instance).

Maybe a large swarm of fighters could wear down the shields of a large sovereign class reaper, but we have no evidence that is true. Their tiny thanix cannons may not produce enough energy to do anything, just like the 5" guns of a destroyer in WW were not a significant threat to a battleship, while the 18" guns of the battleship could tear the destroyer to pieces.

[Tleining]

A0170 wrote...

^This. And maybe you're right. Maybe those fighters don't have Thanix cannons, which I think is the case too. But consider why they wouldn't have them. 1.) Maybe its too expensive and therefore impractical to arm hundreds of fighters with it. 2.) Maybe, like Sgt. Stryker said, they just aren't as effective as a Cruiser or a Dreadnought's Thanix cannons, which by all accounts, would take a continual volley just to do some damage.

according to the Codex, the Thanix was designed for Fighters and Frigates. The Rest isn't backed up by the Codex. At the end of ME1 i had Credits maxed out. At the end of ME2 i had enough Resources to upgrade several Fighters.

Also, the Normandy was up against two, maybe three Occuli. I'm talking about hundreds. And look how much damage just two Occuli were able to do, cutting through the Normandy's shields and armor to sneak onboard its shuttle bay.

or 5 or 6. 2 or 3 get shot down by the Normandy, 2 or 3 get destroyed in the Debris-Field. One gets into the Cargo-Bay.
And the Normandy was surprised by the Occuli approaching from behind.

As for Cains, it takes thousands of whatever measures of Iridium to produce. And the Normandy again was a state of the art ship with a built in research lab. Can every Alliance warship claim to have a facility onboard like that? Probably not.

No, but in 6 Months and spread out across all the Planets....
Obviously, with Shepard and everyone wasting those 6 Months it's impossible. But what kept Shepard and the Crew from preparing? Give Wrex the Plans on how to build the Cain and it would become commonplace on Tuchanka.

And yes, while you could make a lot of Cains, there would not be enough material to produce a Cain for every squad in every army. If that were the case, then we'd find them all over the place. Besides, you need to make sure that your forces have enough assault rifles (which as I remember require Iridium to produce), ammo, and etc also. We only found a few Cains on Priority: Earth because they were allocated to the Marine squads that were taking out those huge cannons. Obviously, it was for special circumstances.

Yes, they didn't do it. Instead everyone wasted the 6 Months. Which is one of the Reasons why i hated Anderson and Hackett in ME3.
"Oh, the Reapers are here. How could we have known?"
Common Sense?

Why do we need to build Assault Rifles? The Fleets already exist. Every Fleet has enough Weapons for their Troops. Cains are in short supply in ME2. That's what we need to win. That's what we need to build.

[Archer610]

The alliance could win conventionally, with the numbers OP supplied, here's the important points:

1.  The Reapers have divided their forces

     The Reapers are engaging Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and many other planets at the same time.  If they have 100 Capital ships, a reasonable breakdown would be 30 to Earth, 30 to Thessia, 30 to Palaven, and 10 in other locations

2.  The relay network is intact.

     The difference between this cycle and all others before, is that the Citadel was not compromised, thanks to the Prothean scientists.  That is how the reapers win, they don't allow organics to communicate with each other or travel, and they remove organic leadership.
     The intact relay network means Alliance forces can bring all of their strength, 85 dreadnoughts, more if we consider Quarian Live Ships and Geth Dreadnoughts, to one battle, as they did at the end of ME3, at Earth

3.  Superior organic tactics

     The Reapers did not shut down the relay network, this is the mistake that allows the Alliance to defeat them through basic military tactic, called 'Economy of Force'  Economy of Force, simplified, means 'Hit the enemy in his weakest spot, with everything you have, to minimize casualties'
     Since the Reapers decided to hit the whole galaxy at once, they are spread out, which makes them vulnerable to the 90-100 Dreadnoughts that the Alliance can send to one battle.

Once it's said that 4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper, it's all over.  It's simple math, the Reapers lose. 

[SnakeSNMF]

You're forgetting the Geth in this equation.


Their ships are the most powerful of all and can stand heel-to-toe with Reaper ships, their dreadnought amounts have around 46-48 alone, matching the Turians, and they themselves can be equipped with both Thanix cannons and planetary-defense cannons, giving them a superior edge over a majority of any Fleets in the galaxy already, they're seriously powerful.

Not only that, but the Gethd on't need sleep. We deliver resources, they can expand their fleet numerously and easily.

That and along with their upgrades, they themselves alone with every fleet in the galaxy could win in the war against the Reapers alone.

When it comes down to it, the super-weapons the Fleets have designed and clever stratergies are what would win us the war conventinally, and removing the Treaty of Fairfax.

-- editing, the Thanix Cannon isn't a superweapon, but when it comes to the Reapers considering their shields is their strongsuit, it is. It's their achillies heel and it is by that logic, useful.

As for the Quarian/Geth fleet, they're huge, have plenty of Dreadnoughts, and other ships to throw at the fray. Throwing thanix cannons and the most powerful weapons that are meant to rip things apart next, are what the goal would be. Raw power. With the numbers, it's possible.

Modifié par SnakeSNMF, 20 avril 2012 - 01:51 .

[FabricatedWookie]

Ericus wrote...

I have to agree that a conventional victory is impossible, if for no other reason than the fact that no cycle ever managed it over millions of years. If the current cycle actually pulled it off, it would only be 'just barely'.  And even that would only be thanks to the Prothean sabotage of the Citadel at the end of the last cycle.

for all we know, no cycle saw it coming before us.

[A0170]

Ytook wrote...

The reapers wouldn't be able to sustain a large level of attrition as each ship they lose is a massive drop on their fire power, the attrition rate is actually massively in our favour.

Considering how many ships we would lose just to take down one Reaper, our losses would actually be far worse. For example, I did the math for the dreadnoughts. Four dreadnoughts to take down one capital ship, and think of all the ships we'd lose just getting into a good enough firing position.

So if we lose on average of 2 dreadnoughts per 1 Reaper destroyed, than that equals at most 42 Sovereigns taken down, while we're left with no dreadnoughts. Thats 58 Sovereign class ships left if we use a very conservative estimate of 100 Soveriegn class ships in existence, while we're all out of our "bigs". Not to mention the hundreds of destroyers that are left.

They can take all of our homeworlds and colonies while we would have to sacrifice a huge number of ships and men just to take them back, only to have the Reapers drive us off again. Without any homeworlds or colonies, we then run low on resources, meaning we can't rebuild any ships or supply are troops.

[Vormaerin]

Ytook wrote...

The reapers wouldn't be able to sustain a large level of attrition as each ship they lose is a massive drop on their fire power, the attrition rate is actually massively in our favour.

Based on what?  Everyone in game says the opposite.  

Remember, its 4 of our heaviest ships to take down a reaper.   The reaper, on the other hand, is said to be able to rip through the shields and hull of a dreadnought in one shot.

The reapers that attacked palaven greatly outnumbered the Turians and also hit Alliance forces with overwhelming power.

[Tleining]

Vormaerin wrote...

There's no evidence that thanix cannons are some one size fits all device. A fighter doesn't produce nearly the energy output that a larger ship does. The engineers mention that the thanix you install on the Normandy (by space magic with no need for refit time) increase the draw on the main power. The Normandy is repeatedly declared to be unable to face heavier ships in straight up combat (like the cerberus cruiser, for instance).

Maybe a large swarm of fighters could wear down the shields of a large sovereign class reaper, but we have no evidence that is true. Their tiny thanix cannons may not produce enough energy to do anything, just like the 5" guns of a destroyer in WW were not a significant threat to a battleship, while the 18" guns of the battleship could tear the destroyer to pieces.

*lol*
We have no Evidence to support that the Thanix Cannons are one size fits all.
We have no Evidence to support that a Swarm of Fighters with Thanix can destroy a Capital class Reaper.

So obviously the Opposite is true?
The Codex mentions the Thanix for Frigates and Fighters. Not Cruisers. Not Dreadnoughts.
The Normandy was able to destroy the Collector Cruiser. Without the "Get in close and finish it off."-Line it would have been a clear Victory. The Collector Cruiser was able to destroy a Turian Cruiser with no Problem. Yet the Cerberus Cruiser is suddenly way more powerful?
Destroying the Cerberus Cruiser right next to the Station you want to evacuate is a bad idea. But standing up to it in a fight?

[tractrpl]

Archer610 wrote...

Once it's said that 4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper, it's all over.  It's simple math, the Reapers lose. 

Uh, you lost the math. There are 89 dreads in all of civilized space, compared to with at least 2000 Sovereigns (probably much more). Even if we kill one sovereign for every one dread we lose, we run out of dreads and we lose.  We don't even have as many warships besides fighters as they do Reapers, from what I can gather.