444 réponses à ce sujet

[zarnk567]

 Well if we had our "real super weapon" we could have.

[Drummernate]

Ya know that Geth cannon on the Geth dreadnaught?....

Yeah that seems pretty capable of killing Reapers to me!

Too bad the silly Quarians had to blow it up.

[SNascimento]

Ytook wrote...

The reapers wouldn't be able to sustain a large level of attrition as each ship they lose is a massive drop on their fire power, the attrition rate is actually massively in our favour.

.
This is probably the wrongest thing that could be said in this topic. 

[tractrpl]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

You're forgetting the Geth in this equation.

The Geth were damn near gutted by the Quarians, and they can't go toe to toe with the Reapers. Maybe two dreads can take out one Sov, but they'd still be outmatched. Remember, the Reapers have at least 2000 Sovs alone.  The geth altogether might have an additional 40 dreadnoughts at most. Sorry. No dice.

[A0170]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

You're forgetting the Geth in this equation.


Their ships are the most powerful of all and can stand heel-to-toe with Reaper ships, their dreadnought amounts have around 46-48 alone, matching the Turians, and they themselves can be equipped with both Thanix cannons and planetary-defense cannons, giving them a superior edge over a majority of any Fleets in the galaxy already, they're seriously powerful.

Not only that, but the Gethd on't need sleep. We deliver resources, they can expand their fleet numerously and easily.

That and along with their upgrades, they themselves alone with every fleet in the galaxy could win in the war against the Reapers alone.

When it comes down to it, the super-weapons the Fleets have designed and clever stratergies are what would win us the war conventinally, and removing the Treaty of Fairfax.

Considering how easily the Reapers were able to manipulate the Geth again and again, I'm a little wary of how long they'll be able to stand by our side. A significant faction of them willingly worshipped the Reapers remember, who's to say that another Heretic faction wouldn't rise up again? Or what's stopping the Reaper's from corrupting them? Yes, they gained sentience if you chose to side with them but I would argue that their still susceptible to a comparable form of indoctrination that organics face. 

And I don't know where you got the 46-48 dreadnought count from but its certainly interesting. I was under the impression that the Geth Dreadnought we board is THE Geth Dreadnought of the fleet, implying that there is only one. Regardless, if your total is correct, we can add them to the count of around 85 Council dreadnoughts, giving us around 130-135 dreadnoughts total. Now, if we use the numbers again, and if we can assume a rate of 2 dreads lost per 1 Sovereign class destroyed, than that would only equal 65-70 Sovereigns destroyed. An impressive rate, but if they're at least a 100 Sovereigns than there would still be 35-30 surviving Sovereigns while we are left with no more dreadnoughts.

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[tractrpl]

A0170 wrote...

An impressive rate, but if they're at least a 100 Sovereigns than there would still be 35-30 surviving Sovereigns while we are left with no more dreadnoughts.

Your numbers are way off. There's shown to be over 200 Sovereigns in one screenshot at the end of ME2.  It's unlikely that accounts for all of them.  If they create one Sov for each cycle, and are unlikely to lose one per cycle, that gives them about 2000 Sovereign AT LEAST, and probably 2-4 times as many destroyers. They outnumber us, not to mention outgun.

[A0170]

3rd-apex wrote...

Good article. I tell people this stuff all the time and they don't listen to me. I hope people listen to you. I am tired of people complaining about the ending.

Cheers, glad you enjoyed it!

[Whereto]

Though every cycle before this one had their relays shut down. So of course they didn't stand a chance, their military command was likely wiped out with the attack on the citadel, then their fleets were stranded in several different systems. How do you create a defense and offense strategy when you can't even bring your fleets together.

Now with this cycle, they have several different races, with different tactics and the relays are all open. Never before has a cycle brought this much firepower to a single fight. Then we also must consider, it takes 4 dreadnoughts to bring down a reaper dreadnought, but those 4 dreadnoughts wouldn't be alone. Your going to have several cruises and fighters firing on the thing. Your not going to need 4 at any rate, especially with the thanix cannons.

[SnakeSNMF]

A0170 wrote...

SnakeSNMF wrote...

You're forgetting the Geth in this equation.


Their ships are the most powerful of all and can stand heel-to-toe with Reaper ships, their dreadnought amounts have around 46-48 alone, matching the Turians, and they themselves can be equipped with both Thanix cannons and planetary-defense cannons, giving them a superior edge over a majority of any Fleets in the galaxy already, they're seriously powerful.

Not only that, but the Gethd on't need sleep. We deliver resources, they can expand their fleet numerously and easily.

That and along with their upgrades, they themselves alone with every fleet in the galaxy could win in the war against the Reapers alone.

When it comes down to it, the super-weapons the Fleets have designed and clever stratergies are what would win us the war conventinally, and removing the Treaty of Fairfax.

Considering how easily the Reapers were able to manipulate the Geth again and again, I'm a little wary of how long they'll be able to stand by our side. A significant faction of them willingly worshipped the Reapers remember, who's to say that another Heretic faction wouldn't rise up again? Or what's stopping the Reaper's from corrupting them? Yes, they gained sentience if you chose to them but I would argue that their susceptible to a similar form of indoctrination organics face. 

And I don't know where you got the 46-48 dreadnought count from but its certainly interesting. I was under the impression that the Geth Dreadnought we board is THE Geth Dreadnought of the fleet, implying that there is only one. Regardless, if your total is correct, we can add them to the count of around 85 Council dreadnoughts, giving us around 130-135 dreadnoughts total. Now, if we use the numbers again, and if we can assume a rate of 2 dreads lost per 1 Sovereign class destroyed, than that would only equal 65-70 Sovereigns destroyed. An impressive rate, but if they're at least a 100 Sovereigns than there would still be 35-30 surviving Sovereigns while we are left with no more dreadnoughts.

The codex states that due to the free treaty, the Geth were able to construct nearly as many Dreadnoughts as the Turians with ease. Which, probably means only about 44-45, but given their free time inbetween you getting them and the war for Earth, I think the'yd be able to construct that much. Even more if they were given resources and the ability to do so.

The enhancements they'd give them gives them individuality and the ability to think for themselves properly-- a very complex mind, matching the neural connections of that of a human brain, making it very hard to capture them again, even with advanced Reaper technology.

We also need to counter in the Quarian fleet, which the Heavy fleet can basically be counted as having some Dreadnoughts. Among that 50,000 ships, their would be many to throw away to help defend the Dreadnoughts and give them time to survive.

[Archer610]

We don't ever get an accurate count of how many Reapers there are, OP suggested they had 100 Capital ships, and 900 Destroyers. 89 Alliance Dreadnoughts doesn't factor in Geth or Quarian forces, I don't know how many Liveships there are, or how many Geth Dreadnoughts there are.
If there are 2000 Sovereigns, then yeah, no way to beat them, but if there are only 100, then the Reapers can't win without better tactics.

[A0170]

tractrpl wrote...

A0170 wrote...

An impressive rate, but if they're at least a 100 Sovereigns than there would still be 35-30 surviving Sovereigns while we are left with no more dreadnoughts.

Your numbers are way off. There's shown to be over 200 Sovereigns in one screenshot at the end of ME2.  It's unlikely that accounts for all of them.  If they create one Sov for each cycle, and are unlikely to lose one per cycle, that gives them about 2000 Sovereign AT LEAST, and probably 2-4 times as many destroyers. They outnumber us, not to mention outgun.

I know, I just said a hundred as an absolute low ball number to show even if they're only 100 Reaper capitals, stopping them all would still be near impossible. Sorry for the mixup.

[tractrpl]

Whereto wrote...

Then we also must consider, it takes 4 dreadnoughts to bring down a reaper dreadnought, but those 4 dreadnoughts wouldn't be alone. Your going to have several cruises and fighters firing on the thing.

Those Reapers are not likely to be alone either.

[SnakeSNMF]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

A0170 wrote...

SnakeSNMF wrote...

You're forgetting the Geth in this equation.


Their ships are the most powerful of all and can stand heel-to-toe with Reaper ships, their dreadnought amounts have around 46-48 alone, matching the Turians, and they themselves can be equipped with both Thanix cannons and planetary-defense cannons, giving them a superior edge over a majority of any Fleets in the galaxy already, they're seriously powerful.

Not only that, but the Gethd on't need sleep. We deliver resources, they can expand their fleet numerously and easily.

That and along with their upgrades, they themselves alone with every fleet in the galaxy could win in the war against the Reapers alone.

When it comes down to it, the super-weapons the Fleets have designed and clever stratergies are what would win us the war conventinally, and removing the Treaty of Fairfax.

Considering how easily the Reapers were able to manipulate the Geth again and again, I'm a little wary of how long they'll be able to stand by our side. A significant faction of them willingly worshipped the Reapers remember, who's to say that another Heretic faction wouldn't rise up again? Or what's stopping the Reaper's from corrupting them? Yes, they gained sentience if you chose to them but I would argue that their susceptible to a similar form of indoctrination organics face. 

And I don't know where you got the 46-48 dreadnought count from but its certainly interesting. I was under the impression that the Geth Dreadnought we board is THE Geth Dreadnought of the fleet, implying that there is only one. Regardless, if your total is correct, we can add them to the count of around 85 Council dreadnoughts, giving us around 130-135 dreadnoughts total. Now, if we use the numbers again, and if we can assume a rate of 2 dreads lost per 1 Sovereign class destroyed, than that would only equal 65-70 Sovereigns destroyed. An impressive rate, but if they're at least a 100 Sovereigns than there would still be 35-30 surviving Sovereigns while we are left with no more dreadnoughts.

The codex states that due to the free treaty, the Geth were able to construct nearly as many Dreadnoughts as the Turians with ease. Which, probably means only about 44-45, but given their free time inbetween you getting them and the war for Earth, I think the'yd be able to construct that much. Even more if they were given resources and the ability to do so.

The enhancements they'd give them gives them individuality and the ability to think for themselves properly-- a very complex mind, matching the neural connections of that of a human brain, making it very hard to capture them again, even with advanced Reaper technology.

We also need to counter in the Quarian fleet, which the Heavy fleet can basically be counted as having some Dreadnoughts. Among that 50,000 ships, their would be many to throw away to help defend the Dreadnoughts and give them time to survive.

Fortunately, if we throw other ships into the equation alone, they themselves can destroy Capital ships.

[tractrpl]

Archer610 wrote...

We don't ever get an accurate count of how many Reapers there are, OP suggested they had 100 Capital ships, and 900 Destroyers. 89 Alliance Dreadnoughts doesn't factor in Geth or Quarian forces, I don't know how many Liveships there are, or how many Geth Dreadnoughts there are.
If there are 2000 Sovereigns, then yeah, no way to beat them, but if there are only 100, then the Reapers can't win without better tactics.

Well let's look at the fact that the Reapers used a "small force" to take out Palaven, which had already upgreaded all of their ships with Thanix cannons. If a "small force" could take out the Turians, than even a combined fleet should be impossible to take out a "main fleet" like that which surrounds Earth.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

In ME3 we were victims of the Council and Council member races sitting around with their thumbs up their asses, including EARTH refusing to recognize the reaper threat, even though there was cold hard evidence on the Citadel -- cited by Bailey "they still haven't cleaned up half that thing." in ME2 after two years.

The sat around and went "Duh, uh..., do you think that might just be Geth technology? Do you think maybe we should ask the Quarians about this?"

Turian Councilor: Quarians? Those suit rats? They'll get here on the Citadel and steal us blind. Everyone knows those with Eastern European accents are like that. And besides, they're not members of the Council so that means they're just stupid just like the Volus and Elcor. No offense to you Din.

Din: None .... taken.... sir.

Salarian Councilor: You're right. Our scientists know more about the Geth than their creators anyway.

Anderson or Udina: Are you guys nuts? We should bring the Quarians in to examine this to make sure before the Keepers clean up any more of this. And why are the Keeper trying to hide this thing?

Turian Councilor: Shut up, Anderson/Udina. Shepard let the old council die, so we're not going to listen to anything you say no matter how valid it is. Your kind are just greedy for power.

Earth Councilor: So you're just going to ignore the evidence and do nothing. Fine. We'll start preparing ourselves.

Asari Councilor: If you do, you'll be branded a rogue state, banned from the council.

Turians: And we'll find it necessary to go to war with you if you exceed your arms limits. Is that what you want? And don't even think about putting your nuclear weapons on your ships, even though we know damned well that a hit from two 5 MT warheads would easily take out a ship the size of Sovereign. There are treaties you know.

---------------------

This is why the reapers are unbeatable by conventional means. They squandered three years.

[Whereto]

tractrpl wrote...

Whereto wrote...

Then we also must consider, it takes 4 dreadnoughts to bring down a reaper dreadnought, but those 4 dreadnoughts wouldn't be alone. Your going to have several cruises and fighters firing on the thing.

Those Reapers are not likely to be alone either.

Now you enter the land of assumption. You can't say we can't win on a maths that doesn't take into account all the factors. 

[A0170]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

A0170 wrote...

SnakeSNMF wrote...

You're forgetting the Geth in this equation.


Their ships are the most powerful of all and can stand heel-to-toe with Reaper ships, their dreadnought amounts have around 46-48 alone, matching the Turians, and they themselves can be equipped with both Thanix cannons and planetary-defense cannons, giving them a superior edge over a majority of any Fleets in the galaxy already, they're seriously powerful.

Not only that, but the Gethd on't need sleep. We deliver resources, they can expand their fleet numerously and easily.

That and along with their upgrades, they themselves alone with every fleet in the galaxy could win in the war against the Reapers alone.

When it comes down to it, the super-weapons the Fleets have designed and clever stratergies are what would win us the war conventinally, and removing the Treaty of Fairfax.

Considering how easily the Reapers were able to manipulate the Geth again and again, I'm a little wary of how long they'll be able to stand by our side. A significant faction of them willingly worshipped the Reapers remember, who's to say that another Heretic faction wouldn't rise up again? Or what's stopping the Reaper's from corrupting them? Yes, they gained sentience if you chose to them but I would argue that their susceptible to a similar form of indoctrination organics face. 

And I don't know where you got the 46-48 dreadnought count from but its certainly interesting. I was under the impression that the Geth Dreadnought we board is THE Geth Dreadnought of the fleet, implying that there is only one. Regardless, if your total is correct, we can add them to the count of around 85 Council dreadnoughts, giving us around 130-135 dreadnoughts total. Now, if we use the numbers again, and if we can assume a rate of 2 dreads lost per 1 Sovereign class destroyed, than that would only equal 65-70 Sovereigns destroyed. An impressive rate, but if they're at least a 100 Sovereigns than there would still be 35-30 surviving Sovereigns while we are left with no more dreadnoughts.

The codex states that due to the free treaty, the Geth were able to construct nearly as many Dreadnoughts as the Turians with ease. Which, probably means only about 44-45, but given their free time inbetween you getting them and the war for Earth, I think the'yd be able to construct that much. Even more if they were given resources and the ability to do so.

The enhancements they'd give them gives them individuality and the ability to think for themselves properly-- a very complex mind, matching the neural connections of that of a human brain, making it very hard to capture them again, even with advanced Reaper technology.

We also need to counter in the Quarian fleet, which the Heavy fleet can basically be counted as having some Dreadnoughts. Among that 50,000 ships, their would be many to throw away to help defend the Dreadnoughts and give them time to survive.

The Geth weren't bound by Council Law so they weren't bound by the Council of Farixen. If they were, the Turians only have around 50 dreads I believe, and because the Geth are neither a Council Race nor a Race with an embassy, than they would only be allowed 1 dreadnought per every 5 Turian dreadnoughts built. By that count, the Geth would have at most around 10, if they followed the Treaty of course. And because they didn't I can see them building a ton of dreadnoughts, but again only one is ever mentioned and how its mentioned implies that its the only one. I could be wrong, but I'm just going with the Codex.

As to your point about how an individual Geth consciousness is now as complex as a human mind, I absolutely agree. But lets not forget the hundreds if not thousands of corrupted humans working for the Reapers. *cough* *Cerberus* *cough*

The Quarians like I said are formidable, but most of their ships are civilian, salvaged, ancient, or a combination of the three. And as such many of them definitely don't have the armor or the shielding of the Alliance or Turian fleets. Sure they can deal out the damage, but they wouldn't be able to take it.

[Drummernate]

Step 1:
Go back in time.

Step 2:
Show the Reapers the endings.

Step 3:
They all go away because they realize how stupid that would be.

Step 4:
Profit.

[Yorkston9152]

Archer610 wrote...

The alliance could win conventionally, with the numbers OP supplied, here's the important points:


3.  Superior organic tactics

     The Reapers did not shut down the relay network, this is the mistake that allows the Alliance to defeat them through basic military tactic, called 'Economy of Force'  Economy of Force, simplified, means 'Hit the enemy in his weakest spot, with everything you have, to minimize casualties'
     Since the Reapers decided to hit the whole galaxy at once, they are spread out, which makes them vulnerable to the 90-100 Dreadnoughts that the Alliance can send to one battle.

Once it's said that 4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper, it's all over.  It's simple math, the Reapers lose. 

"Do you know what your sin is? its pride"

Its not even superior organic tactics, its a matter of completely different tactics. An organic mind works almost completely different then one of a computer. On top of that, Reapers have shown time and time again they dont consider organics an end game threat on any level. Read the codex on "miricle on palavan" where turian spies snuck on with explosives and blew up reaper ships. An organic most times would of made sure a prisoner didnt have any thing to harm them, or at least to a level of obvious *hey, thats a holster, maybe it has a gun in it?* To the reapers, organics are on the same level as a cow or a pig being led to a slaughter house. Sure they can bite you, even kill you if your careless, but at the end of the day your gonna have a buger or a nice hot dog.

Because of that line of thought, Reapers can be competely caught off guard. They will expect people to run, to hide, or on the other end of the specturm, to throw them sleves needlessly and foolishly against them like a wave with no plan other then to kill and die. There is no "underlining" tactic, and because of that, traps and ambush's, decoys and distractions can be set.

Also, AI's and synthetics im guessing all work simlar along the same roles of logic. There is a good chace that reapers all follow the same tactics as one another, and most likely tactics they have come to depend on for millions of years. An organic how ever, has tactics they perfer and others they hate. They are fluid in what they want to do. One commander may be a broad sword, while the other is like a katana. One may like sneak attacks, the other distractions and bait and switchs. While this "fluid" line of thinking can be harmful, it can also be a great boon when you run into a brick wall.

Just because something is bigger, stronger and deadlier then you doesnt mean you are weak and cant kill it. If that was the case, the first cave man who wobbled out of his hut would of just said "screw it, let the lions own the land" instead of building a spear and making him self a new fur coat.

[Mbaye Diagne]

Guerrilla warfare was the way to go. The Turians did it best when they sent up volunteers armed with fission weapons to detonate themselves inside of Reaper ships. Yes, those individuals inside are lost, but if said ship was destroyed from outside fire, they'd likely be just as dead.

The Protheans went overboard with a war of attrition. Launching asteroids/ sacrificing whole planets isn't an efficient use of resources, especially since it can't ensure destruction the way an interior suicide bombing would.

Cyborgs as infiltration units performing the same job may also work quite well, as the likelihood of them detonating is near absolute if they are presented the opportunity.

[grey_wind]

While a conventional victory seems unlikely in ME3 due to the way the Reapers and plot are written, it would be far more fitting thematically than "OMG, I found a superweapon in my backyard at the last minute! I have no idea what it does but let's use it anyway!"
In fact, I'd argue that ME2 was basically setting the plot up for a victory attained by strength through unity.

[tractrpl]

Someone actually took the time to count 295 Sovereign class reapers in this one picture. Given the fact that reapers fill the entire picture, there's likely more not shown.

http://images.wikia....eaper_fleet.png

[Archer610]

tractrpl wrote...

Archer610 wrote...

We don't ever get an accurate count of how many Reapers there are, OP suggested they had 100 Capital ships, and 900 Destroyers. 89 Alliance Dreadnoughts doesn't factor in Geth or Quarian forces, I don't know how many Liveships there are, or how many Geth Dreadnoughts there are.
If there are 2000 Sovereigns, then yeah, no way to beat them, but if there are only 100, then the Reapers can't win without better tactics.

Well let's look at the fact that the Reapers used a "small force" to take out Palaven, which had already upgreaded all of their ships with Thanix cannons. If a "small force" could take out the Turians, than even a combined fleet should be impossible to take out a "main fleet" like that which surrounds Earth.

The Turians pulled their fleet away to preserve it.  How would the Reaper 'small force' of say, 10 Capital ships, hold up to every ship the Alliance could bring?  If there's 100 Dreadnoughts, counting Liveships and Geth, that's 10 Dreads for every Capital ship.  Losses to the Alliance would be pretty small, since it only takes 4 Dreads to kill a Reaper

[A0170]

Whereto wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Whereto wrote...

Then we also must consider, it takes 4 dreadnoughts to bring down a reaper dreadnought, but those 4 dreadnoughts wouldn't be alone. Your going to have several cruises and fighters firing on the thing.

Those Reapers are not likely to be alone either.

Now you enter the land of assumption. You can't say we can't win on a maths that doesn't take into account all the factors. 

Its not assumptions, its straight from the codex. We've seen how easy they can tear apart our fleets. That number of 4 dreadnoughts is a testament to just how much firepower it would take to take down one Reaper. And when you consider the casualties that it would take just to get those ships into a good enough position to take one reaper capital down, coupled with the hundreds and/or thousands of remaining Reaper ships out there, the numbers simply don't add up for victory. That's why I used math

[tractrpl]

Archer610 wrote...

The Turians pulled their fleet away to preserve it.  How would the Reaper 'small force' of say, 10 Capital ships, hold up to every ship the Alliance could bring?  If there's 100 Dreadnoughts, counting Liveships and Geth, that's 10 Dreads for every Capital ship.  Losses to the Alliance would be pretty small, since it only takes 4 Dreads to kill a Reaper

Does the term 2000 (minimum) Sovereigns mean anything to you? We're outnumbered, not just outgunned.