444 réponses à ce sujet

[tractrpl]

Elyiia wrote...

Pretty much any number of Reaper Capital ships is speculation, unless someone wants to post a formula taking into account every variable. Until then, it's speculation.

If what your saying is true, then it's speculation that we're even having this conversation, since electrons and photons are only theorized to exist, and therefore the computers, networks, and fiber optic hubs that construct the internet must surely be non existent. Just becaus an argument is made from reasonable estimations doesn't mean that the argument is wrong. On the other hand we have people that are saying we DEFINITELY SHOULD be able to defeat the Reapers conventionally, which certainly IS speculation.

There is a resonably good formula for this "speculation". It's been stated in game that usually AT LEAST one Sovereign class Reaper are created per cycle, and we know there have been at least 2000 cycles. It's also stated that it's very unusual for the Reapers to ever lose a Sovereign. It's also stated that "Destroyers" are made from secondary species. Even if Reapers are only 25% successful at creating + not losing a Sovereign, this leaves them to have at least 500 Sovereigns, outnumbering our Dreadnoughts by about 5 to 1.  

Lastly, we have the picture from ME2 which shows about 295 Sovereign class Reapers. Since the density of those Reapers doesn't decrease near the edges of that photo, that implies that there's far more Reapers in existence than is shown in that one photo.

[tractrpl]

Elyiia wrote...

And if they had that many Capital ships, why would they have left a single destroyer to guard the beam. If they had thousands of Capital ships, leaving one to defend wouldn't have been an issue.

They didn't need that many because Reapers are huge and it's impossible to fit a gazillion in a small space. Also, they didn't feel the need to use more because it felt protected by the beam, which through off targeting.

Also, it should be noted that the Reapers overwhelmed humanities defenses in a matter of seconds, it didn't even take them hours. You should play the beginning again.

[Ariq]

Vormaerin wrote...

This myth of the Thanix cannon is getting really tiresome. Its an improvement over the weapons we had before. Its not an uberweapon. It results in starship armament with superior shield penetration over straight kinetic energy weapons.

There's no evidence that thanix cannons are some one size fits all device. A fighter doesn't produce nearly the energy output that a larger ship does. The engineers mention that the thanix you install on the Normandy (by space magic with no need for refit time) increase the draw on the main power. The Normandy is repeatedly declared to be unable to face heavier ships in straight up combat (like the cerberus cruiser, for instance).

Maybe a large swarm of fighters could wear down the shields of a large sovereign class reaper, but we have no evidence that is true. Their tiny thanix cannons may not produce enough energy to do anything, just like the 5" guns of a destroyer in WW were not a significant threat to a battleship, while the 18" guns of the battleship could tear the destroyer to pieces.

This. And again: this.

I don't know where the idea of the Thanix cannon being a magic super gun even comes from. They're an upgrade, like going from a musket to a rifle. It's a good upgrade. Very good, in fact, game changing for the time frame of the shift. Still won't shoot through a tank's armor though.

[tractrpl]

As far as the Thanix is concerned, the great rift in Klendagon is the result of a massive mass accelerator weapon, one not created by the Reapers. This weapon is orders of magnitude more powerful than any Thanix weapon, and disabled at least one Reaper. But even this was not enough to save this particular species from extinction, and they were definitely far more advanced that we were.

[A0170]

Mbaye Diagne wrote...

A0170 wrote...

True, but again consider the amount of ships and firepower it would take to take down one Reaper capital ship, four Dreadnoughts armed with Thanix cannons, and the fact that they're at least hundreds of these capital ships alone if the ending scene from ME2 is to be believed. Now each of those capital ships will then have an escort of several destroyers, which have been shown time and time again to be able to make short work of a cruiser in just a few shots. Even if their numbers are not what they used to be, the attrition rate alone would nullify much of the advantage we would gain for their casualties suffered in the past cycles. It also hasn't stopped the Reapers from beating countless cycles in the past. The fact they were able to do so and yet maintain such an impressive force speaks volumes to their durability.

But perhaps their victories and low casualties rates was due to their ability to seize the Citadel and shut down the relay network? Well then, in that case wouldn't that also mean their casualties would be low regardless, because they had such an easy time Reaping each cycle in the past?

That's definitely within the realm of possibility.

We know that they've had low casualties of their capital ships. We know nothing of the casualties of the remainder of their forces.

Consider the number of Aircraft Carriers lost in Vietnam compared to fighters and bombers.

It goes without saying that we only know a sliver of the story, and as such, can do nothing but speculate. However, because all we can do is speculate, there is a range of speculation that could be undtertaken, from one extreme, The Reapers are declining like the Roman Empire, to another, that they are more powerful than ever.

A great point. But at least we can speculate with whats provided in the Codex. I'd rather not have to speculate on everything mind you, as I'm sure most people here wouldn't either, but we can reasonably guess that from the information provided, conventional victory is near impossible as the Codex stands now.

As for your point about the Vietnam War, I would compare the destroyers to our actual destoryers and cruisers. Sure, they have the dual purpose of landing on planets and serving as shock weapons, but they're primary function I think is too guard the capital ships. And because the Reapers had such an easy go of it before, and considering just how vast their numbers are, I really can't say that their numbers are in the decline. Granted, the previous cycles would've wiped out a considerable amount of destroyers for sure, but there seems to be more than enough left to deal with us.

They can also build more after they crushed the most resistance. It takes hundreds of years, depending on each cycle I guess, to fully reap all the advanced organic races at that time right? If so, than they'd have plenty of time to rebuild and replenish their numbers, like how its nmentioned the Reapers were building a human reaper in the Citadel during Priority: Earth.

[Asharad Hett]

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 20 avril 2012 - 03:21 .

[tractrpl]

Asharad Hett wrote...

We were just a dozen or so people.

The entire fifth fleet plus the entire citadel fleet? Come on. Stop confusing a dozen with a few dozen thousand.  Thanix upgrades help, but it's not going to make a single fighter suddenly be able to go toe to toe with a Sovereign.

[Archer610]

A0170 wrote...

Archer610 wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

How is it even a question? If the Reapers were capable of being defeated conventionally, wouldn't it have happened at some point in the million whatever years they've been reaping? Even if they were, we know they take every precaution imaginable.
Anyway, personally, I was under the impression the reapers weren't defeat-able conventionally after the first game. The third one just supported my belief.

     This is the first cycle it's possible for the Reapers to lose.  The one difference between this cycle and every other one is that the relay network is still working.  In every previous cycle, the Reapers turn the relays off when they take over the Citadel.  Thet remove the organics' command, comunication, and mobility.
     This time, the organic races can talk to each other, and move around.  Since they can move around, it's possible for every Alliance warship in the galaxy to be in the same place.  In every other cycle, the fleets were all seperated, and could be picked off one fleet at a time.  The VI on Ilos talked about how all the systems were isolated and picked off.

Right, thats why I'd think we definitely give them a run for our money. But they control the Citadel eventually, and they know about the Keepers being sabotaged by now. Whats to stop them from shutting down the relay netowrk then? Or Starkid could get off his lazy ass and do it. If so, then we wouldn't be able to communicate or travel freely.

Plothole aside, the Reapers can outlast us in the fight, because of how many ships we'd lose just to take out one Sovereign class. Plus they control most, if not all of each of the Citadel race's homeworlds. Taking them back would require a fleet as large as Sword, if not larger, as Sword was only meant to buy time for the Crucible. Coupled with the massive amount of casualties that'll be suffered by both ground and naval forces, the necessity of maintaining open supply lines, and the fact that the Reapers can always come back and drive us off again, the war looks unwinnable. The Reapers don't need supply lines remember, and if they continually deny us access to resources and worlds, we'll eventually run out of supplies to rebuild, food to eat, and soliders to man our ships and armies.

     That's another reason why the ending is horrible.. it invalidates ME1.  Why didn't Starkid, who is on the Citadel the whole time, just give access to Soverign?  But that's a plothole for another thread...

      Point is, the Reapers never shut down the relays, and it's the way they win their wars.  Once they do that, the Alliance can't possibly win.
      In a straight up All The Reapers vs. Every Alliance Ship Ever Made fight, the Alliance simply loses, your math is completely correct about that.  But that's not how it is, the Reapers hit just about everywhere at the same time.
     Here's the info we have: Possibly 120 Alliance Dreadnoughts with the ability to all be in the same battle because of a functioning relay network, 100 Sovereigns spread throughout the galaxy over who knows how many different planets. We also know 4 Dreadnoughts can kill 1 Sovereign.  Because the Reapers chose to open so many fronts at the same time, the Alliance should be able to pick their battles, and engage smaller Reaper forces, and kill them with minimal losses. 
     4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper.   When you have 10 Dreadnoughts for every Reaper, all the Reapers die, and you don't lose many Dreadnoughts.
      Oh, there's 60 Reapers around Earth?  That's pretty simple too.  We know what happens to a relay when you slam an asteroid into it.

[A0170]

Asharad Hett wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Yes, but it wouldn't make sense otherwise. If you write about a force that's been able to totally inihilate at least 2000 other civilizations, what makes you think that ours is special? This is the "humans are at the center of the universe" argument, which is wrong, wrong, wrong. The sun does not revolve around the Earth, and humanity is not "special" in it's ability to destroy the Reapers.

I don't think our civilization is special.  I would say that our cycle was special.  The Protheans threw a gremlin into the grand plan.  After playing ME2, I felt that this cycle had a chance to defeat the reapers.  We had access to Reaper tech.  We had foreknowledge of their arrival.  We had the Keepers sabotaged (thanks to the Protheans).  This cycle was different, until the writers gave us ME3. 

Again I'll say, we couldn't win conventionally due to the plot provided in ME3.   We won conventionally in the first 2 games.

We won conventionally against one Reaper. That's not the same as against tens of thousands of Reaper ships.

   We were just a dozen or so people.

And with the combined might of the Citadel and Alliance (or at least the Fifth) fleets.

[humes spork]

The Reapers have reach, we have flexibility.

[A0170]

Archer610 wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Archer610 wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

How is it even a question? If the Reapers were capable of being defeated conventionally, wouldn't it have happened at some point in the million whatever years they've been reaping? Even if they were, we know they take every precaution imaginable.
Anyway, personally, I was under the impression the reapers weren't defeat-able conventionally after the first game. The third one just supported my belief.

     This is the first cycle it's possible for the Reapers to lose.  The one difference between this cycle and every other one is that the relay network is still working.  In every previous cycle, the Reapers turn the relays off when they take over the Citadel.  Thet remove the organics' command, comunication, and mobility.
     This time, the organic races can talk to each other, and move around.  Since they can move around, it's possible for every Alliance warship in the galaxy to be in the same place.  In every other cycle, the fleets were all seperated, and could be picked off one fleet at a time.  The VI on Ilos talked about how all the systems were isolated and picked off.

Right, thats why I'd think we definitely give them a run for our money. But they control the Citadel eventually, and they know about the Keepers being sabotaged by now. Whats to stop them from shutting down the relay netowrk then? Or Starkid could get off his lazy ass and do it. If so, then we wouldn't be able to communicate or travel freely.

Plothole aside, the Reapers can outlast us in the fight, because of how many ships we'd lose just to take out one Sovereign class. Plus they control most, if not all of each of the Citadel race's homeworlds. Taking them back would require a fleet as large as Sword, if not larger, as Sword was only meant to buy time for the Crucible. Coupled with the massive amount of casualties that'll be suffered by both ground and naval forces, the necessity of maintaining open supply lines, and the fact that the Reapers can always come back and drive us off again, the war looks unwinnable. The Reapers don't need supply lines remember, and if they continually deny us access to resources and worlds, we'll eventually run out of supplies to rebuild, food to eat, and soliders to man our ships and armies.

     That's another reason why the ending is horrible.. it invalidates ME1.  Why didn't Starkid, who is on the Citadel the whole time, just give access to Soverign?  But that's a plothole for another thread...

      Point is, the Reapers never shut down the relays, and it's the way they win their wars.  Once they do that, the Alliance can't possibly win.
      In a straight up All The Reapers vs. Every Alliance Ship Ever Made fight, the Alliance simply loses, your math is completely correct about that.  But that's not how it is, the Reapers hit just about everywhere at the same time.
     Here's the info we have: Possibly 120 Alliance Dreadnoughts with the ability to all be in the same battle because of a functioning relay network, 100 Sovereigns spread throughout the galaxy over who knows how many different planets. We also know 4 Dreadnoughts can kill 1 Sovereign.  Because the Reapers chose to open so many fronts at the same time, the Alliance should be able to pick their battles, and engage smaller Reaper forces, and kill them with minimal losses. 
     4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper.   When you have 10 Dreadnoughts for every Reaper, all the Reapers die, and you don't lose many Dreadnoughts.
      Oh, there's 60 Reapers around Earth?  That's pretty simple too.  We know what happens to a relay when you slam an asteroid into it.

Yes, but the Alliance doesn't have that many dreadnoughts. Nor does the rest of the Citadel Races combined, which we know for sure is around 85 at the beginning of the invasion. We're just as spread out, and in need of supplies unlike the Reapers. They can take our territory, and we can take it back, but we'd never be able to hold it. They'd always be able to drive us off again because we depend on such things as food and supplies, and becasue their ships outclass ours in every way. And we'll end up losing a ton of ships and men in the process too I might add. Again, the only way we'd be able to take out one of their capital ships is if we outnumber and gang up on them, but we don't have the numbers to keep that up for long. And without resources we can't rebuild.

[tractrpl]

Archer610 wrote...

      Point is, the Reapers never shut down the relays, and it's the way they win their wars.  Once they do that, the Alliance can't possibly win.
      In a straight up All The Reapers vs. Every Alliance Ship Ever Made fight, the Alliance simply loses, your math is completely correct about that.  But that's not how it is, the Reapers hit just about everywhere at the same time.
     Here's the info we have: Possibly 120 Alliance Dreadnoughts with the ability to all be in the same battle because of a functioning relay network, 100 Sovereigns spread throughout the galaxy over who knows how many different planets. We also know 4 Dreadnoughts can kill 1 Sovereign.  Because the Reapers chose to open so many fronts at the same time, the Alliance should be able to pick their battles, and engage smaller Reaper forces, and kill them with minimal losses. 
     4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper.   When you have 10 Dreadnoughts for every Reaper, all the Reapers die, and you don't lose many Dreadnoughts.
      Oh, there's 60 Reapers around Earth?  That's pretty simple too.  We know what happens to a relay when you slam an asteroid into it.

No one is arguing about Starkid. We all agree he's pretty stupid.  It could be said that manipulating the keepers cause him to become powerless, or that he wanted to see how this one played out.  After thousands of cycles he started to get bored. Who knows.

Where are you getting there's 60 Reapers? My info suggests that there's about as many Sovs around Earth as there are Dreads in the Alliance, around 150.  Even with even numbers we'd still lose. Each ship is individually still more powerful than ours.

[A0170]

humes spork wrote...

The Reapers have reach, we have flexibility.

LOL

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

fr33stylez wrote...

 Hell, even Shepard was sitting on Earth doing nothing for 6 MONTHS after Arrival DLC, even though Shepard knew the Reapers were dangerously close.

As someone posted, if the Geth were capable of building a ship like Sovereign, why wasn't the council any more concerned than they were? Oh, yeah, the Veil is in the Terminus Systems. So again why not bring a Quarian expert to examine it? No. Stupid politicians. Plot must have been written by James Vega. "Once again proving why evil always triumphs over good. Because good is dumb." -- Lord Helmet - "Spaceballs"

Shepard was under house arrest instead of in the brig. The admirals were sitting on their thumbs on a boat floating on a river in Egypt, along with the rest of the galaxy for three years. That's what was going on. The only group working on anything to counter the reaper threat was Cerberus and TIM got indoctrinated in the process and instead of working with the Alliance worked against them.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 20 avril 2012 - 03:31 .

[A0170]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

 Hell, even Shepard was sitting on Earth doing nothing for 6 MONTHS after Arrival DLC, even though Shepard knew the Reapers were dangerously close.

As someone posted, if the Geth were capable of building a ship like Sovereign, why wasn't the council any more concerned than they were? Oh, yeah, the Veil is in the Terminus Systems. So again why not bring a Quarian expert to examine it? No. Stupid politicians. Plot must have been written by James Vega. "Once again proving why evil always triumphs over good. Because good is dumb." -- Lord Helmet - "Spaceballs"

Shepard was under house arrest instead of in the brig. The admirals were sitting on their thumbs on a boat floating on a river in Egypt, along with the rest of the galaxy for three years. That's what was going on. The only group working on anything to counter the reaper threat was Cerberus and TIM got indoctrinated in the process and instead of working with the Alliance worked against them.

This. Here's another reason why we couldn't win the war conventionally. Politics. Even if Shepard were to maintain the alliances he made, what would happen if and when he suddenly died? We can assume that there's enough goodwill to keep us all together for a few years, but what happens when the Reapers push us closer and closer to the brink? Imagine if this war were to continue like this for a few years, with our militaries both running low on supplies, men, ships, and morale. By all accounts, it takes them a couple hundred years to reap most of a cycle. How long before one race decides to commit the last remnant of its forces to defend and find a way to preserve itself, knowing full well the war effort is faling.

And how long before our leaders become indoctrinated, sabotaging our efforts from within or creating such mistrust that we don't even know who's on our side anymore?

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[Archer610]

A0170 wrote...

Archer610 wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Archer610 wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

How is it even a question? If the Reapers were capable of being defeated conventionally, wouldn't it have happened at some point in the million whatever years they've been reaping? Even if they were, we know they take every precaution imaginable.
Anyway, personally, I was under the impression the reapers weren't defeat-able conventionally after the first game. The third one just supported my belief.

     This is the first cycle it's possible for the Reapers to lose.  The one difference between this cycle and every other one is that the relay network is still working.  In every previous cycle, the Reapers turn the relays off when they take over the Citadel.  Thet remove the organics' command, comunication, and mobility.
     This time, the organic races can talk to each other, and move around.  Since they can move around, it's possible for every Alliance warship in the galaxy to be in the same place.  In every other cycle, the fleets were all seperated, and could be picked off one fleet at a time.  The VI on Ilos talked about how all the systems were isolated and picked off.

Right, thats why I'd think we definitely give them a run for our money. But they control the Citadel eventually, and they know about the Keepers being sabotaged by now. Whats to stop them from shutting down the relay netowrk then? Or Starkid could get off his lazy ass and do it. If so, then we wouldn't be able to communicate or travel freely.

Plothole aside, the Reapers can outlast us in the fight, because of how many ships we'd lose just to take out one Sovereign class. Plus they control most, if not all of each of the Citadel race's homeworlds. Taking them back would require a fleet as large as Sword, if not larger, as Sword was only meant to buy time for the Crucible. Coupled with the massive amount of casualties that'll be suffered by both ground and naval forces, the necessity of maintaining open supply lines, and the fact that the Reapers can always come back and drive us off again, the war looks unwinnable. The Reapers don't need supply lines remember, and if they continually deny us access to resources and worlds, we'll eventually run out of supplies to rebuild, food to eat, and soliders to man our ships and armies.

     That's another reason why the ending is horrible.. it invalidates ME1.  Why didn't Starkid, who is on the Citadel the whole time, just give access to Soverign?  But that's a plothole for another thread...

      Point is, the Reapers never shut down the relays, and it's the way they win their wars.  Once they do that, the Alliance can't possibly win.
      In a straight up All The Reapers vs. Every Alliance Ship Ever Made fight, the Alliance simply loses, your math is completely correct about that.  But that's not how it is, the Reapers hit just about everywhere at the same time.
     Here's the info we have: Possibly 120 Alliance Dreadnoughts with the ability to all be in the same battle because of a functioning relay network, 100 Sovereigns spread throughout the galaxy over who knows how many different planets. We also know 4 Dreadnoughts can kill 1 Sovereign.  Because the Reapers chose to open so many fronts at the same time, the Alliance should be able to pick their battles, and engage smaller Reaper forces, and kill them with minimal losses. 
     4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper.   When you have 10 Dreadnoughts for every Reaper, all the Reapers die, and you don't lose many Dreadnoughts.
      Oh, there's 60 Reapers around Earth?  That's pretty simple too.  We know what happens to a relay when you slam an asteroid into it.

Yes, but the Alliance doesn't have that many dreadnoughts. Nor does the rest of the Citadel Races combined, which we know for sure is around 85 at the beginning of the invasion. We're just as spread out, and in need of supplies unlike the Reapers. They can take our territory, and we can take it back, but we'd never be able to hold it. They'd always be able to drive us off again because we depend on such things as food and supplies, and becasue their ships outclass ours in every way. And we'll end up losing a ton of ships and men in the process too I might add. Again, the only way we'd be able to take out one of their capital ships is if we outnumber and gang up on them, but we don't have the numbers to keep that up for long. And without resources we can't rebuild.

     85 known Dreadnoughts, plus Geth and Quarian live ships.  We don't know what the true number is, but we know the Geth do make Dreadnoughts, and we know live ships carry Dreadnought weapons.  I'm using 'lots of speculation' to come up with a guess of 120 Alliance Dreadnoughts, but I have nothing to back it up.  I figure that's okay because this is just a speculation thread anyways. 
     At the beginning of ME3, we're all spread out, that's why the Reapers overwhelm Earth and Palaven so quick.  A functioning relay network allows us to put all out warships in one place, we see this at the end of ME3 at Earth.
     And right here, you say the magic thing 'the only way we'd be able to take out one of their capital ships is if we outnumber and gang up on them'  Yes, that's my point entirely.  They don't shut down the relay network, which allows the Alliance to gang up on them, and take them out.
     Also, the asteroid thing into the Sol relay would have been a pretty cool ending, sacrificing Earth and most of humanity to end the threat of the massed Reaper fleet...

[humes spork]

Archer610 wrote...

Also, the asteroid thing into the Sol relay would have been a pretty cool ending, sacrificing Earth and most of humanity to end the threat of the massed Reaper fleet...

That would be the wussy way out. You have a perfectly functional mass relay and a perfectly functional star in Sol...



Aww, yeah.

Modifié par humes spork, 20 avril 2012 - 03:49 .

[A0170]

Archer610 wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Archer610 wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Archer610 wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

How is it even a question? If the Reapers were capable of being defeated conventionally, wouldn't it have happened at some point in the million whatever years they've been reaping? Even if they were, we know they take every precaution imaginable.
Anyway, personally, I was under the impression the reapers weren't defeat-able conventionally after the first game. The third one just supported my belief.

     This is the first cycle it's possible for the Reapers to lose.  The one difference between this cycle and every other one is that the relay network is still working.  In every previous cycle, the Reapers turn the relays off when they take over the Citadel.  Thet remove the organics' command, comunication, and mobility.
     This time, the organic races can talk to each other, and move around.  Since they can move around, it's possible for every Alliance warship in the galaxy to be in the same place.  In every other cycle, the fleets were all seperated, and could be picked off one fleet at a time.  The VI on Ilos talked about how all the systems were isolated and picked off.

Right, thats why I'd think we definitely give them a run for our money. But they control the Citadel eventually, and they know about the Keepers being sabotaged by now. Whats to stop them from shutting down the relay netowrk then? Or Starkid could get off his lazy ass and do it. If so, then we wouldn't be able to communicate or travel freely.

Plothole aside, the Reapers can outlast us in the fight, because of how many ships we'd lose just to take out one Sovereign class. Plus they control most, if not all of each of the Citadel race's homeworlds. Taking them back would require a fleet as large as Sword, if not larger, as Sword was only meant to buy time for the Crucible. Coupled with the massive amount of casualties that'll be suffered by both ground and naval forces, the necessity of maintaining open supply lines, and the fact that the Reapers can always come back and drive us off again, the war looks unwinnable. The Reapers don't need supply lines remember, and if they continually deny us access to resources and worlds, we'll eventually run out of supplies to rebuild, food to eat, and soliders to man our ships and armies.

     That's another reason why the ending is horrible.. it invalidates ME1.  Why didn't Starkid, who is on the Citadel the whole time, just give access to Soverign?  But that's a plothole for another thread...

      Point is, the Reapers never shut down the relays, and it's the way they win their wars.  Once they do that, the Alliance can't possibly win.
      In a straight up All The Reapers vs. Every Alliance Ship Ever Made fight, the Alliance simply loses, your math is completely correct about that.  But that's not how it is, the Reapers hit just about everywhere at the same time.
     Here's the info we have: Possibly 120 Alliance Dreadnoughts with the ability to all be in the same battle because of a functioning relay network, 100 Sovereigns spread throughout the galaxy over who knows how many different planets. We also know 4 Dreadnoughts can kill 1 Sovereign.  Because the Reapers chose to open so many fronts at the same time, the Alliance should be able to pick their battles, and engage smaller Reaper forces, and kill them with minimal losses. 
     4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper.   When you have 10 Dreadnoughts for every Reaper, all the Reapers die, and you don't lose many Dreadnoughts.
      Oh, there's 60 Reapers around Earth?  That's pretty simple too.  We know what happens to a relay when you slam an asteroid into it.

Yes, but the Alliance doesn't have that many dreadnoughts. Nor does the rest of the Citadel Races combined, which we know for sure is around 85 at the beginning of the invasion. We're just as spread out, and in need of supplies unlike the Reapers. They can take our territory, and we can take it back, but we'd never be able to hold it. They'd always be able to drive us off again because we depend on such things as food and supplies, and becasue their ships outclass ours in every way. And we'll end up losing a ton of ships and men in the process too I might add. Again, the only way we'd be able to take out one of their capital ships is if we outnumber and gang up on them, but we don't have the numbers to keep that up for long. And without resources we can't rebuild.

     85 known Dreadnoughts, plus Geth and Quarian live ships.  We don't know what the true number is, but we know the Geth do make Dreadnoughts, and we know live ships carry Dreadnought weapons.  I'm using 'lots of speculation' to come up with a guess of 120 Alliance Dreadnoughts, but I have nothing to back it up.  I figure that's okay because this is just a speculation thread anyways. 
     At the beginning of ME3, we're all spread out, that's why the Reapers overwhelm Earth and Palaven so quick.  A functioning relay network allows us to put all out warships in one place, we see this at the end of ME3 at Earth.
     And right here, you say the magic thing 'the only way we'd be able to take out one of their capital ships is if we outnumber and gang up on them'  Yes, that's my point entirely.  They don't shut down the relay network, which allows the Alliance to gang up on them, and take them out.
     Also, the asteroid thing into the Sol relay would have been a pretty cool ending, sacrificing Earth and most of humanity to end the threat of the massed Reaper fleet...

The Codex says the Alliance has 10 dreadnoughts, with one already destroyed, the SSV Shasta. But if we put all our warships in one place, we may win and liberate Earth for example. It'd cost us tons of ships and men, but we somehow miraculously manage to do it. But what happens when we need to liberate Palaven? We'd need to send an overwhelming force again to take it right? Well wouldn't that leave Earth vulnerable to attack? Wouldn't that cause more casualties? But even if we do take back Palaven too, we'd have too move on to Thessia for example. But we'd also have to leave ships to guard Earth and Palaven. See what I'm getting at here? We can win, we can retake, but we can never hold onto our gains. The more we take back, the more vulnerable all our other positions get. And the more vulnerable all our other positions get, the easy it is for the Reapers to take it back.

And because it'd cost us dearly to destroy one Reaper, again, it'll bleed us dry. We lose several ships for everyone one we destroy. And again, without being able to hold onto planets or colonies which could cost us a ton of ships and troops to retake, we can neither rebuild or resupply.

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 03:49 .

[ashwind]

Archer610 wrote...

      Oh, there's 60 Reapers around Earth?  That's pretty simple too.  We know what happens to a relay when you slam an asteroid into it.

Slamming an asteroid into a Relay is NOT conventional warfare 

Unless from where you are from, nukes are considered "conventional"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

A0170 wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

Step 1:
Go back in time.

Step 2:
Show the Reapers the endings.

Step 3:
They all go away because they realize how stupid that would be.

Step 4:
Profit.

Genius!

Harbinger: Shepard you have become an annoyance. You have...

Shepard: Harbinger, wait we've got a few minutes to spare. You need to see this.

Harbinger: You cannot ...

Shepard: Really. I'm serious. You really need to see this, but you need to do me a favor since if you don't, I'm screwed. If you don't, we're all screwed. A favor for a favor. Deal?

Harbinger: *sigh* what is it?

Shepard: It's how this story ends.

Harbinger: Where did you get this?

Shepard: Well, you see, I haven't gotten here yet. I'm still in med bay on this asteroid. Well, the other me is, but I kinda did a thing and time travelled back here to show this to you.

Harbinger: Play it.....*watches*..... you're kidding me. That's our purpose? Wouldn't it just have been easier to wipe out the synthetics before they got out of control? Who was the bosh'tet who wrote this crap? So we're screwed no matter how it goes down? Both of us?

Shepard: Yep. Both of us. So deal? Favor for a favor?

Harbinger: Okay. What do you need?

Shepard: You've got my favor in that you've seen the ending and can avoid it by just leaving, right?

Harbinger: Yes. So what do you want?

Shepard: Well doofus me in there is going to send this asteroid into the relay here to stop you from invading earth, so you'll need to cover for me and wreak havoc on the Batarian Hegemony, then you can leave. That'll keep me out of prison.

Harbinger: .....

Shepard: Come on. It'll be fun. You guys have travelled a long ways just to do something. At least you'll get in a little mayhem. Then you go back to dark space and sleep. And no hard feelings and all that either, okay?

Harbinger: Let me talk it over with the rest of the gang. It'll be a few minutes, we all saw the ending. ..... *time passes*  Okay. We agree to your terms.

Shepard: Well, thanks, now I've got to go back to the future. If you're not there, I'll know it worked.

Shepard returns to a shining Vancouver. She's in her apartment. Date is six months after the date of the scheduled invasion. The Batarian Hegemony has been decimated by something called Reapers, but they suddenly vanished afterward leaving all the council races calling it once again a myth. Shepard is released from house arrest and she invites Liara over for coffee and the two go house hunting.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 20 avril 2012 - 04:05 .

[Archer610]

You're missing the point. You don't go to Earth first, that would cost too many ships. You don't fight 50 of them at once. You fight them over the Elcor homeworld, where there are 5 of them. Look on the galactic map, they're in a bunch of different systems. Pick them off, overwhelm them with superior numbers. They don't have any re-inforcements, and they can't build new reapers, that has to take some time. They're attacking everywhere at once, you can pick your battles. If you have 60 Dreadnoughts, and they have 5 reapers, They lose all of them, and you don't lose any. If they mass up around Palaven or Earth, slam an asteroid into the relay. Surely a homeworld or two is worth ending the reaper threat

[tekkaman fear]

I always thought conventional victory was impossible because of sheer numbers. I thought there were hundreds of thousands of Reaper ships from Destroyers to Sovereign class.

Edit: Further reading shows me that the numbers game has already been discussed.

Modifié par tekkaman fear, 20 avril 2012 - 04:06 .

[kaztas]

If conventional means is impossible then why does the Galaxy at War MP screen at 100% readiness say "Allied Forces are holding steady and winning in key locations." That's conventional fighting.

...just saying

[tractrpl]

Archer610 wrote...

You're missing the point. You don't go to Earth first, that would cost too many ships. You don't fight 50 of them at once. You fight them over the Elcor homeworld, where there are 5 of them. Look on the galactic map, they're in a bunch of different systems. Pick them off, overwhelm them with superior numbers. They don't have any re-inforcements, and they can't build new reapers, that has to take some time. They're attacking everywhere at once, you can pick your battles. If you have 60 Dreadnoughts, and they have 5 reapers, They lose all of them, and you don't lose any. If they mass up around Palaven or Earth, slam an asteroid into the relay. Surely a homeworld or two is worth ending the reaper threat

That still sounds like a losing proposition.  All they need to do is concentrate themselves somewhere where you wouldn't be able to kill them by slamming an asteroid into a mass relay. Even a relatively small number of them is large enough to head off your combined fleets. You'd be forced to slam asteroids into relays for small gain and huge loss of people.  Also, the Reapers are rediculously fast. They went from entering the Sol Relay to landing on Earth in a matter of minutes. I'm sure they'd have no problem defending the relay from an asteroid attack given how long it takes to do such a thing.

[tractrpl]

kaztas wrote...

If conventional means is impossible then why does the Galaxy at War MP screen at 100% readiness say "Allied Forces are holding steady and winning in key locations." That's conventional fighting.

...just saying

That readiness rating basically says your gettting your @ss kicked only 6 days a week not all 7, and you're only winning small, relatively minor battles. Just saying