444 réponses à ce sujet

[Rabid Rooster]

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've never understood the counterpoint of "Plot armor" as a reason why the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons.

If they could, couldn't one simply state that it's "Plot weakness?" It would seem that "Plot Armor" could be used for any defense of a story playing through in a way a person doesn't want since ultimately it's up to the writers to lay out the narrative?

Random question, do you have any contact with the ME team? Can you ask them what happens if Javik touches a Reaper? I'd make a Twitter account to bug them but I don't want to make a Twitter account :3

Hahaha nice. Someone else posted this but what would happen if Javik sat on a toliet seat? 

Modifié par Rabid Rooster, 20 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've never understood the counterpoint of "Plot armor" as a reason why the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons.

If they could, couldn't one simply state that it's "Plot weakness?" It would seem that "Plot Armor" could be used for any defense of a story playing through in a way a person doesn't want since ultimately it's up to the writers to lay out the narrative?

Random question, do you have any contact with the ME team? Can you ask them what happens if Javik touches a Reaper? I'd make a Twitter account to bug them but I don't want to make a Twitter account :3

Hahaha nice. Someone else posted this but what would happen if Javik sat on a toliet seat? 

I think my question is related to the plot If Javik can get imprints from things, why not send him through the Omega 4 relay, touch things then have some Asari scientists mind meld with him and see if there's any technology we could use?

That'd be interesting. Also, with Cerberus having control over Omega and the area beyond the Omega 4 Relay, I wonder how much of the Collector Base is still there? If you blew it up, they probably salavaged any remaining debris they could find. Maybe a piece of it remains on a nearby base and Javik could touch it. Or if you kept it, it'd probably be there intact so Javik could go onboard and touch it. I'd hate to think what he would see though, who knows what the Reapers did to the Collectors there?

[Raynulf]

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

no other cycle had a chance to fight back. Do people forget that for every cycle before us they swopped through the Citadel and destroyed everyone before they had a chance. 

Yes, but people habitually ignore that bit because it wasn't really mentioned in Mass Effect 3.

It's still critical to the story - and the Citadel should have played a larger role in ME3 than "Home of GodChild", but because it didn't, it gets ignored by those parroting Hackett.

No matter how advanced any previous cycle was - hell, even if they had ships that could go toe-to-toe with Harbinger - they didn't stand a chance once the Citadel locked them out of the relays, because they can't muster their forces. The term "Divide And Conquer" exists for a reason.


In this cycle, the reapers didn't get to play their trump card. So in this cycle, it's possible to fight back and actually have a chance.

[A0170]

Rabid Rooster wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've never understood the counterpoint of "Plot armor" as a reason why the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons.

If they could, couldn't one simply state that it's "Plot weakness?" It would seem that "Plot Armor" could be used for any defense of a story playing through in a way a person doesn't want since ultimately it's up to the writers to lay out the narrative?

Random question, do you have any contact with the ME team? Can you ask them what happens if Javik touches a Reaper? I'd make a Twitter account to bug them but I don't want to make a Twitter account :3

Hahaha nice. Someone else posted this but what would happen if Javik sat on a toliet seat? 

Yep. Implications unpleasant. 

[Elyiia]

I don't think Javik touching a toilet seat would be any different to Javik touching anywhere else, he doesn't seem to get memories of what they did right there just an imprint of the person.

[A0170]

Raynulf wrote...

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

no other cycle had a chance to fight back. Do people forget that for every cycle before us they swopped through the Citadel and destroyed everyone before they had a chance. 

Yes, but people habitually ignore that bit because it wasn't really mentioned in Mass Effect 3.

It's still critical to the story - and the Citadel should have played a larger role in ME3 than "Home of GodChild", but because it didn't, it gets ignored by those parroting Hackett.

No matter how advanced any previous cycle was - hell, even if they had ships that could go toe-to-toe with Harbinger - they didn't stand a chance once the Citadel locked them out of the relays, because they can't muster their forces. The term "Divide And Conquer" exists for a reason.


In this cycle, the reapers didn't get to play their trump card. So in this cycle, it's possible to fight back and actually have a chance.

We would have a chance, but I'm going to repost this here.

Right, thats why I'd think we definitely give them a run for our money. But they control the Citadel eventually, and they know about the Keepers being sabotaged by now. Whats to stop them from shutting down the relay netowrk then? Or Starkid could get off his lazy ass and do it. If so, then we wouldn't be able to communicate or travel freely.

Plothole aside, the Reapers can outlast us in the fight, because of how many ships we'd lose just to take out one Sovereign class. Plus they control most, if not all of each of the Citadel race's homeworlds. Taking them back would require a fleet as large as Sword, if not larger, as Sword was only meant to buy time for the Crucible. Coupled with the massive amount of casualties that'll be suffered by both ground and naval forces, the necessity of maintaining open supply lines, and the fact that the Reapers can always come back and drive us off again, the war looks unwinnable. The Reapers don't need supply lines remember, and if they continually deny us access to resources and worlds, we'll eventually run out of supplies to rebuild, food to eat, and soliders to man our ships and armies. 

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...

Raynulf wrote...

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

no other cycle had a chance to fight back. Do people forget that for every cycle before us they swopped through the Citadel and destroyed everyone before they had a chance. 

Yes, but people habitually ignore that bit because it wasn't really mentioned in Mass Effect 3.

It's still critical to the story - and the Citadel should have played a larger role in ME3 than "Home of GodChild", but because it didn't, it gets ignored by those parroting Hackett.

No matter how advanced any previous cycle was - hell, even if they had ships that could go toe-to-toe with Harbinger - they didn't stand a chance once the Citadel locked them out of the relays, because they can't muster their forces. The term "Divide And Conquer" exists for a reason.


In this cycle, the reapers didn't get to play their trump card. So in this cycle, it's possible to fight back and actually have a chance.

We would have a chance, but I'm going to repost this here.

Right, thats why I'd think we definitely give them a run for our money. But they control the Citadel eventually, and they know about the Keepers being sabotaged by now. Whats to stop them from shutting down the relay netowrk then? Or Starkid could get off his lazy ass and do it. If so, then we wouldn't be able to communicate or travel freely.

Plothole aside, the Reapers can outlast us in the fight, because of how many ships we'd lose just to take out one Sovereign class. Plus they control most, if not all of each of the Citadel race's homeworlds. Taking them back would require a fleet as large as Sword, if not larger, as Sword was only meant to buy time for the Crucible. Coupled with the massive amount of casualties that'll be suffered by both ground and naval forces, the necessity of maintaining open supply lines, and the fact that the Reapers can always come back and drive us off again, the war looks unwinnable. The Reapers don't need supply lines remember, and if they continually deny us access to resources and worlds, we'll eventually run out of supplies to rebuild, food to eat, and soliders to man our ships and armies. 

Don't forget that without the Crucible needing a defence fleet you've doubled Sword by adding Hammer. And what could have the resources used on the Crucible been used for?

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

I don't think Javik touching a toilet seat would be any different to Javik touching anywhere else, he doesn't seem to get memories of what they did right there just an imprint of the person.

Maybe. It's certainly better than the alternative.

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 08:08 .

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Raynulf wrote...

Coachdongwiffle wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Because the rudimentary military tactic of this:  
"Concentrate fire on that super star destroyer."
is far too advanced for the races of this cycle, which leads to a reaction of this:
"The codex astartes does not support this action."
Conventional warfare works, but the writers needed to give the Reapers plot armor so thick Janeway blushed in their attempt to make things so grimdark and edgy and artistic. 

Does the term "exterminated thousands of civilizaton prior, some far more advanced than the one in this cycle" mean anything to you? We're not special. If civilizations far better than us still fell to the Reapers then it's literally impossible for us to defeat them using anything other than sheer luck.

no other cycle had a chance to fight back. Do people forget that for every cycle before us they swopped through the Citadel and destroyed everyone before they had a chance. 

Yes, but people habitually ignore that bit because it wasn't really mentioned in Mass Effect 3.

It's still critical to the story - and the Citadel should have played a larger role in ME3 than "Home of GodChild", but because it didn't, it gets ignored by those parroting Hackett.

No matter how advanced any previous cycle was - hell, even if they had ships that could go toe-to-toe with Harbinger - they didn't stand a chance once the Citadel locked them out of the relays, because they can't muster their forces. The term "Divide And Conquer" exists for a reason.


In this cycle, the reapers didn't get to play their trump card. So in this cycle, it's possible to fight back and actually have a chance.

We would have a chance, but I'm going to repost this here.

Right, thats why I'd think we definitely give them a run for our money. But they control the Citadel eventually, and they know about the Keepers being sabotaged by now. Whats to stop them from shutting down the relay netowrk then? Or Starkid could get off his lazy ass and do it. If so, then we wouldn't be able to communicate or travel freely.

Plothole aside, the Reapers can outlast us in the fight, because of how many ships we'd lose just to take out one Sovereign class. Plus they control most, if not all of each of the Citadel race's homeworlds. Taking them back would require a fleet as large as Sword, if not larger, as Sword was only meant to buy time for the Crucible. Coupled with the massive amount of casualties that'll be suffered by both ground and naval forces, the necessity of maintaining open supply lines, and the fact that the Reapers can always come back and drive us off again, the war looks unwinnable. The Reapers don't need supply lines remember, and if they continually deny us access to resources and worlds, we'll eventually run out of supplies to rebuild, food to eat, and soliders to man our ships and armies. 

Don't forget that without the Crucible needing a defence fleet you've doubled Sword by adding Hammer. And what could have the resources used on the Crucible been used for?

Isn't Hammer specifically a ground force though? They wouldn't be able to help out in space.

And a lot of things. Maybe a few ships even, given a good amount of time. But again, with the nummber of ships lost in combat, would the resources from the Crucible had been enough to adequately replenish those lost numbers? 

[Bill Casey]

Fallen94 wrote...

If your looking for a superweapon we have the relays

This...
Weaponize some Mass Relays...
Send those bastards straight into a black hole...

Defeat the reapers using...
Wait for it...

The Mass Effect!

[A0170]

Bill Casey wrote...

Fallen94 wrote...

If your looking for a superweapon we have the relays

This...
Weaponize some Mass Relays...
Send those bastards straight into a black hole...

Defeat the reapers using...
Wait for it...

The Mass Effect!

Sigh... If only.

[Jestina]

No seats on the Normandy toilets. You just have to squat...in full view of everyone. I'm not using that. I should have complained to TIM about the shoddy bathrooms.
http://desmond.image...png&res=landing

[lockdown51]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've never understood the counterpoint of "Plot armor" as a reason why the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons.

If they could, couldn't one simply state that it's "Plot weakness?" It would seem that "Plot Armor" could be used for any defense of a story playing through in a way a person doesn't want since ultimately it's up to the writers to lay out the narrative?

Mr. Schumacher,

Thanks for being a Bioware presence on the ME forums though you work on Dragon Age. I see you around a lot and I appreciate what you add to threads like this one.

The "Plot Armor" here is not a "plot weakness" because it specifically fills in a subtrope and is not a plot hole or oversight. The link I have put up even points this out as the specific case of Kai Leng. The Reapers are just getting the same treatment in that "no conventional" means can defeat them. Really, what it is is "Railroading" the player and the game to build and use the Crucible, which is fine as a literary device. Since it fulfills an actual purpose it is not a "plot weakness" as you put it but rather plot armor, protecting an aspect of the story and forcing the player to look for other means to achieve victory. If the species of the galaxy could beat the Reapers conventionally why would they ever build the Crucible when all those resources could go into making more ships or guns or what have you?

If the Crucible isn't built then all the writing that the staff did and programmed would never be used and that would mean most of the game would never be seen. And there are some really nice moments in there I personally enjoyed. Emergency Induction Port is a real fan favorite. 

Still doesn't sway my belief that the Reapers could be beaten conventionally as per my previous posting. Concentrating fire is not a real advanced military skill. No disrespect to any military leaders, but if us dumb E-3 grunts can figure it out, its not rocket science. Its even done in game when the Quarian fleet blasts into that one Reaper destroyer that take a insane amount of punishment. While I don't rule out that Reapers are made of tough stuff, the codex in game says that the Quarians have largest fleet of ships in the galaxy and even went so far as to arm their civilian vessels. Clearly they were armed with nerf guns.

Tl;dr: Plot Armor is an appropriate, but annoying, literary device justly used in the story of ME3. Still seems silly that no one in the universe knows how to concentrate fire.

[A0170]

Jestina wrote...

No seats on the Normandy toilets. You just have to squat...in full view of everyone. I'm not using that. I should have complained to TIM about the shoddy bathrooms.
http://desmond.image...png&res=landing

I never noticed that before! Billions of credits spent on the Normandy and he couldn't even get toilet seats. Cheap bastard. <_<

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 08:17 .

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...


Isn't Hammer specifically a ground force though? They wouldn't be able to help out in space.

And a lot of things. Maybe a few ships even, given a good amount of time. But again, with the nummber of ships lost in combat, would the resources from the Crucible had been enough to adequately replenish those lost numbers? 

I meant Shield, apologies I'm posting distracted.

[Rabid Rooster]

Jestina wrote...

No seats on the Normandy toilets. You just have to squat...in full view of everyone. I'm not using that. I should have complained to TIM about the shoddy bathrooms.
http://desmond.image...png&res=landing

MMM...Mass Effect seats maybe, you just hover over it no grems no oops wet ass......

Modifié par Rabid Rooster, 20 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...


Isn't Hammer specifically a ground force though? They wouldn't be able to help out in space.

And a lot of things. Maybe a few ships even, given a good amount of time. But again, with the nummber of ships lost in combat, would the resources from the Crucible had been enough to adequately replenish those lost numbers? 

I meant Shield, apologies I'm posting distracted.

No worries. That would definitely increase the odds. But would it be enough to beat back the whole of the Reaper fleet in Earth's orbit?

Again this is an example of where the endings fell flat. We have no idea how all those fleets we gathered together are doing, such as if they're holding their own or if they're getting annihilated. 

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[Icinix]

Truth be told, I would rather see the galaxy bled dry over hundreds of years than taking or indeed seeing any one of the three options the StarChild presented.

If I can make the call to overwrite every organic and synthetic being in the galaxy, I can make that call too.

Edit: And since this cycle has already caused signifigant delay and damage to the Reapers, maybe the next cycle will be even more succesfull.

Modifié par Icinix, 20 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[A0170]

Icinix wrote...

Truth be told, I would rather see the galaxy bled dry over hundreds of years than taking or indeed seeing any one of the three options the StarChild presented.

If I can make the call to overwrite every organic and synthetic being in the galaxy, I can make that call too.

Edit: And since this cycle has already caused signifigant delay and damage to the Reapers, maybe the next cycle will be even more succesfull.

Let's hope so. I'm guessing the Yahg will tear them a new one.

[Rail Tracer]

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Truth be told, I would rather see the galaxy bled dry over hundreds of years than taking or indeed seeing any one of the three options the StarChild presented.

If I can make the call to overwrite every organic and synthetic being in the galaxy, I can make that call too.

Edit: And since this cycle has already caused signifigant delay and damage to the Reapers, maybe the next cycle will be even more succesfull.

Let's hope so. I'm guessing the Yahg will tear them a new one.

I really want to see an ending where the Yahg find Liara's box and so when the Reapers show up they have million-billions of ships ready for them. It would be awesome.

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Truth be told, I would rather see the galaxy bled dry over hundreds of years than taking or indeed seeing any one of the three options the StarChild presented.

If I can make the call to overwrite every organic and synthetic being in the galaxy, I can make that call too.

Edit: And since this cycle has already caused signifigant delay and damage to the Reapers, maybe the next cycle will be even more succesfull.

Let's hope so. I'm guessing the Yahg will tear them a new one.

I really want to see an ending where the Yahg find Liara's box and so when the Reapers show up they have million-billions of ships ready for them. It would be awesome.

[Icinix]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Truth be told, I would rather see the galaxy bled dry over hundreds of years than taking or indeed seeing any one of the three options the StarChild presented.

If I can make the call to overwrite every organic and synthetic being in the galaxy, I can make that call too.

Edit: And since this cycle has already caused signifigant delay and damage to the Reapers, maybe the next cycle will be even more succesfull.

Let's hope so. I'm guessing the Yahg will tear them a new one.

I really want to see an ending where the Yahg find Liara's box and so when the Reapers show up they have million-billions of ships ready for them. It would be awesome.

Yes. Yes it would.

The first time I saw the ending I had a mini flash back to a post about someone saying the Yahg were left alone by the Reapers - and then I thought the ending is so generic for all players - that its entirely possible a future Mass Effect game will be set thousands of years after ME3 with the Yahg as the main bad guys.

[A0170]

Rail Tracer wrote...

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

Interesting. They'll do some damage sure. I wonder if it'll be enough though? Also there's this hurdle.

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot the rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

Maybe the Reaper's put this safety feature in place just so we couldn't use that tacitic? 

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...

Rail Tracer wrote...

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

Interesting. They'll do some damage sure. I wonder if it'll be enough though? Also there's this hurdle.

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot the rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

Maybe the Reaper's put this safety feature in place just so we couldn't use that tacitic? 

But we have evidence of it happening. Some terrorist ran a ship into a colony at near FTL speed.

INCOSISTANCIES!