444 réponses à ce sujet

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Rail Tracer wrote...

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

Interesting. They'll do some damage sure. I wonder if it'll be enough though? Also there's this hurdle.

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot the rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

Maybe the Reaper's put this safety feature in place just so we couldn't use that tacitic? 

But we have evidence of it happening. Some terrorist ran a ship into a colony at near FTL speed.

INCOSISTANCIES!

Ughh hello future retcon..

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 08:46 .

[Icinix]

A0170 wrote...

Rail Tracer wrote...

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

Interesting. They'll do some damage sure. I wonder if it'll be enough though? Also there's this hurdle.

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot the rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

Maybe the Reaper's put this safety feature in place just so we couldn't use that tacitic? 

Limited distance check, so engage the Reapers on the Flanks with the shuttles well outside the safety measure scanning range, the ships combating the Reapers feed them telemetry data outside of Mass Effect technology - VI Shuttle goes to Ludicrous Speed. Boom.

[A0170]

Icinix wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Rail Tracer wrote...

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

Interesting. They'll do some damage sure. I wonder if it'll be enough though? Also there's this hurdle.

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot the rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

Maybe the Reaper's put this safety feature in place just so we couldn't use that tacitic? 

Limited distance check, so engage the Reapers on the Flanks with the shuttles well outside the safety measure scanning range, the ships combating the Reapers feed them telemetry data outside of Mass Effect technology - VI Shuttle goes to Ludicrous Speed. Boom.

Could work, if we could overcome this failsafe that may or may not exist. We'd need to build a lot more shuttles though.

As an alternative, I can see the Quarians jerryrigging some FTL capable bombs or drones together. Again though, I wonder if it'll be enough to cause some major Reaper casualities. It's definitely worth a try regardless. 

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 08:52 .

[A0170]

Double Post. Ignore.

Modifié par A0170, 20 avril 2012 - 08:53 .

[Elyiia]

Anyone know how much mass a shuttle going near ftl is?

[Icinix]

A0170 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Rail Tracer wrote...

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

Interesting. They'll do some damage sure. I wonder if it'll be enough though? Also there's this hurdle.

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot the rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

Maybe the Reaper's put this safety feature in place just so we couldn't use that tacitic? 

Limited distance check, so engage the Reapers on the Flanks with the shuttles well outside the safety measure scanning range, the ships combating the Reapers feed them telemetry data outside of Mass Effect technology - VI Shuttle goes to Ludicrous Speed. Boom.

Could work, if we could overcome this failsafe that may or may not exist. We'd need to build a lot more shuttles though.

I can see the Quarians however jerryrigging some FTL capable bombs or drones together. Again though, I wonder if it'll be enough to cause some casualities. It's definitely worth a try regardless. 

It only needs to work once

Also prior to ME3 I was wondering about the possibility of using fully charged Mass Effect cores as bombs.  Without the discharge they could cause one hell of an electric shock.

You could lay a bucket load around a Relay (like a minefield), maybe even throw on some thrusters or attach them to Interceptors with VI pilots, lure the Reapers through the Relay with tasty targets.
You could also use a Carrier to jump in behind the Reapers as per previous talked about tactics launch their interceptor / charged mass effect core ships and jump out with only minimal risk to lives.

Modifié par Icinix, 20 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[TheLastAwakening]

So, anyone figure out how Sovereign lost its shield yet?

[Elyiia]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

TheLastAwakening wrote...

So, anyone figure out how Sovereign lost its shield yet?

The Codex says this is because of Saren. The ME3 Codex does at least.


Good thread, by the way.

About that, why doesn't Harby control TIM right at the end? You have Shepard there, weakened by his laser but no direct control?

[Rail Tracer]

"...given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper."

This line is crap imo given that the main guns on Dreadnoughts fire at 1.3% of light speed and they eventually can take out a reaper.

From ME2

"This, recruits, is a 20-kilo ferrous slug. Feel the weight. Every five seconds, the main gun of an Everest-class dreadnought accelerates one to 1.3 percent of light speed. It impacts with the force of a 38-kilotomb bomb."

EDIT
Actually now that I 've read it again I think its talking about sublight ramming which would be true I guess. Disregard above.

Modifié par Rail Tracer, 20 avril 2012 - 09:14 .

[TheLastAwakening]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

TheLastAwakening wrote...

So, anyone figure out how Sovereign lost its shield yet?

The Codex says this is because of Saren. The ME3 Codex does at least.


Good thread, by the way.

I read the codex.  It doesn't elaborate on how the signal became corrupted. This is the same vagueness we get during the Henry Lawson part also... I was wondering if maybe someone found/reread something that could elaborate on this, perhaps not.  



Edit: while my post may not seem to reflect the contents of the thread directly, I assure you in someway it does. It's just that we don't have enough information on a lot of things. And it would be pointless to point out the Thanix cannon can do this or that when it is not conclusive. However, the general theme that is, why the codex says we can't win conventionally is at the heart of my questioning..
Yes, I am aware: "Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw."

Modifié par TheLastAwakening, 20 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[A0170]

Icinix wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

A0170 wrote...

Rail Tracer wrote...

I thought of this when seeing all those shuttles Hammer was using in the return to Earth arc.

What about getting a lot of Kodiak shuttles and even Frigates and ram them into reapers at FTL speeds, I'm sure VI's could handle that without a crew.

Kinetic damage on the shuttles alone would be huge, there must be 1000s of shuttles in the galaxy, and there would be no defense to this tactic since you can't track anything moving at FTL.

Anyways that my plan for taking out the reapers seems far more feasible than building a massive super weapon that no one knows what it actually does.

Interesting. They'll do some damage sure. I wonder if it'll be enough though? Also there's this hurdle.

"Meanwhile, starships are too costly to be used as projectiles, given that it would take many collisions to seriously harm a Reaper. Some armchair admirals suggest that a single starship traveling faster than light could obliterate a Reaper capital ship, but all ships based on mass effect technology possess hardwired safety features to prevent FTL collisions. If a ship's FTL plotter finds a significant object in the path of a planned jump, the FTL drive refuses to fire in the first place. This is not a perfect safety feature--the sensors can only scan for objects within a reasonable distance at light speed, and a navigator must plot the rest of the course--but it is so inherent to the FTL warm-up process that removing it is nigh impossible. Cynical intelligence analysts note that the secret of mass effect technology, including that safety system, has always been attributed to the Protheans--just as the mass relays were."

Maybe the Reaper's put this safety feature in place just so we couldn't use that tacitic? 

Limited distance check, so engage the Reapers on the Flanks with the shuttles well outside the safety measure scanning range, the ships combating the Reapers feed them telemetry data outside of Mass Effect technology - VI Shuttle goes to Ludicrous Speed. Boom.

Could work, if we could overcome this failsafe that may or may not exist. We'd need to build a lot more shuttles though.

I can see the Quarians however jerryrigging some FTL capable bombs or drones together. Again though, I wonder if it'll be enough to cause some casualities. It's definitely worth a try regardless. 

It only needs to work once

Also prior to ME3 I was wondering about the possibility of using fully charged Mass Effect cores as bombs.  Without the discharge they could cause one hell of an electric shock.

You could lay a bucket load around a Relay (like a minefield), maybe even throw on some thrusters or attach them to Interceptors with VI pilots, lure the Reapers through the Relay with tasty targets.
You could also use a Carrier to jump in behind the Reapers as per previous talked about tactics launch their interceptor / charged mass effect core ships and jump out with only minimal risk to lives.

The Reapers are scattered enough around the galaxy so they might have to try it a couple of times. I like the idea of the using the Mass Effect cores as bombs though. 

The relay idea is interesting, but I can see the Reapers adapting by indoctrinating merchant ship crews and sending them through the relay first. Also, would the mines be positioned well enough to be effective? By that, I mean couldn't the Reapers manipulate the relays so that they jump ahead of the minefield, having scouted out the area before by sending in a bunch of recon drones to gather intel/set the minefield off prematurely?

As for the carrier, it'd probably be a one way trip. They're not meant for frontline combat and thats gonna show. I don't know if they'd risk such an important ship in an op like this but who knows? 

[A0170]

Elyiia wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

TheLastAwakening wrote...

So, anyone figure out how Sovereign lost its shield yet?

The Codex says this is because of Saren. The ME3 Codex does at least.


Good thread, by the way.

About that, why doesn't Harby control TIM right at the end? You have Shepard there, weakened by his laser but no direct control?

Thanks Eternal! And that would've been a great boss fight if they wanted to go in that direction. Maybe they felt it was too video-gamey?

[Elyiia]

A0170 wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

TheLastAwakening wrote...

So, anyone figure out how Sovereign lost its shield yet?

The Codex says this is because of Saren. The ME3 Codex does at least.


Good thread, by the way.

About that, why doesn't Harby control TIM right at the end? You have Shepard there, weakened by his laser but no direct control?

Thanks Eternal! And that would've been a great boss fight if they wanted to go in that direction. Maybe they felt it was too video-gamey?

They could have had him talk to Shepard instead of the Catalyst, at least then it's not a new character.

[Eain]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've never understood the counterpoint of "Plot armor" as a reason why the Reapers cannot be defeated with conventional weapons.

If they could, couldn't one simply state that it's "Plot weakness?" It would seem that "Plot Armor" could be used for any defense of a story playing through in a way a person doesn't want since ultimately it's up to the writers to lay out the narrative?

Every writer will have to employ plot armour in some way. If you're doing the Hero's Journey as a standard plot, then evidently the Hero will have plot armour. The problem is that the writer can strain suspension of disbelief if he starts placing the Hero in scenarios where he really should've died. Plot armour is often exercised through use of a Deus Ex Machina where the writer realises he wrote himself into a corner. The conundrum is then as follows: the Hero must survive, but the way the story evolved offers him no means. So a means gets invented.

The artist with integrity goes back and scraps everything he wrote up to where the situation is still salvageable, but when you're on a budget with severe time constraints, it's easier to turn into a hack: the author with poor talent will then make his inevitable writing mistakes only to realise he has no time to correct them. This is one of the reasons the artistic integrity argument resonates poorly with me.

In this I would argue that Reapers in fact do not have plot armour, but the species of the ME universe as a whole does. There was never a feasible chance that the Reapers might win, but rather than give us a plausible victory scenario the writers suddenly had to concoct the Crucible to give the species of the galaxy a chance at victory. That is plot armour of the worst kind, and it makes a plot really dull and uninteresting, because the moment the Crucible was announced all tension was immediately drained from the story. Was there ever any doubt that the Crucible would get finished and then used? No. Because otherwise the writers wouldn't go through the effort of building the entire plot around it.

A stronger story wouldn't have resorted to this.

Modifié par Eain, 20 avril 2012 - 09:26 .

[sorentoft]

Elyiia wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

TheLastAwakening wrote...

So, anyone figure out how Sovereign lost its shield yet?

The Codex says this is because of Saren. The ME3 Codex does at least.


Good thread, by the way.

About that, why doesn't Harby control TIM right at the end? You have Shepard there, weakened by his laser but no direct control?

Plothole of course.

[Ariq]

lockdown51 wrote...

Still doesn't sway my belief that the Reapers could be beaten conventionally as per my previous posting. Concentrating fire is not a real advanced military skill. No disrespect to any military leaders, but if us dumb E-3 grunts can figure it out, its not rocket science.

I wonder, how many .22 rifles concentrating fire do you think would be sufficient to disable a Nimitz class carrier?

[TheLastAwakening]

TheLastAwakening wrote...

*snip*

 "Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

Source:http://masseffect.wi...r_Capabilities' class='bbc_url' title='Lien externe' rel='nofollow external'> http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Capabilities


This cycle is simply not intelligent enough to defeat the Reapers by conventional means: Mass Effect trilogy.

Modifié par TheLastAwakening, 20 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[Eain]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Eain wrote...

Every writer will have to employ plot armour in some way. If you're doing the Hero's Journey as a standard plot, then evidently the Hero will have plot armour. The problem is that the writer can strain suspension of disbelief if he starts placing the Hero in scenarios where he really should've died. Plot armour is often exercised through use of a Deus Ex Machina where the writer realises he wrote himself into a corner. The conundrum is then as follows: the Hero must survive, but the way the story evolved offers him no means. So a means gets invented.

The artist with integrity goes back and scraps everything he wrote up to where the situation is still salvageable, but when you're on a budget with severe time constraints, it's easier to turn into a hack: the author with poor talent will then make his inevitable writing mistakes only to realise he has no time to correct them. This is one of the reasons the artistic integrity argument resonates poorly with me.

In this I would argue that Reapers in fact do not have plot armour, but the species of the ME universe as a whole does. There was never a feasible chance that the Reapers might win, but rather than give us a plausible victory scenario the writers suddenly had to concoct the Crucible to give the species of the galaxy a chance at victory. That is plot armour of the worst kind, and it makes a plot really dull and uninteresting, because the moment the Crucible was announced all tension was immediately drained from the story. Was there ever any doubt that the Crucible would get finished and then used? No. Because otherwise the writers wouldn't go through the effort of building the entire plot around it.

A stronger story wouldn't have resorted to this.

This is purely subjective opinion.

Had you lived about 1500 years ago, you'd be saying the opposite.

Show me an objective opinion and I will show you how to rule the world. Of course I would've said something else 1500 years ago. Boredom is bred through repetition, but repetition takes time. Deus ex machina devices have been repeated to such a tiresome extent that writers now regard them as a crutch, a poor escape, where perhaps once they were regarded as a stroke of genius, an unconventional way to think outside the box.

For example, the ancient Greeks had a fondness for circular logic; to them this was proof that reasoning was sound. Aristotle's works are full of circular reasoning, even if it is not always easy to see. Today we say that circular reasoning is a logical fallacy. Times change, standards change, because we raise them. The more we see something be applied, the more we come to understand what that thing is. Deus Ex Machina's stop being a stroke of genius and become a writer's crutch the moment we see them applied more and more as cheap ways out of seemingly unresolvable conflicts.

So I don't really get how appealing to the lower intellectual and logical standard of 1500 years before is in any way a strong argument.

[fainmaca]

What I don't get is if the war with the Reapers is meant to be such a curb-stomp unwinnable situation, then why does it take centuries to wipe out a cycle? Why are the Turians able to slow them down so much over Palaven? I know the Turians weren't winning, but they put up enough resistance to considerably slow them down, to the point where the injection of the Krogan ground troops allowed them to free up a sizeable portion of their fleets to go fight for Earth while still not losing the planet. all of this suggests to me that a combined effort from all of the races should have had a chance at winning, albeit a slim one.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

I really wish there was a larger presense of what our actual military strength was and what it meant in fiction. this thread was highly education and, while its all based on evidence collected from the games, having an in fiction character brief us on it (like hackett) would have been a real buff. (It annoys me hearing people say that we should have just fought as hard as we can because maybe we coulda won!!)

[Laurencio]

We found a weakness, our squad of 3 killed roughly three reapers, and with a decent aiming system we took down a reaper in less than 2 minutes. So, why can't we win relatively conventionally? Or at the very least use supernovas to cripple their fleet.

[Joccaren]

4 Cap ships without Thanix.
Less with.

The Crusier didn't tank those hits from the Reaper Capital ship, the ship missed. Yes, Reapers can miss. Holy Christ. We're not the only ones such can happen to.

Otherwise, lots of Speculation. Honestly, there is no reason we COULDN'T beat them conventionally, had Bioware written it in. Similarly, there is no reason we COULD beat them, as Bioware decided to write them like this.

The debate is largely pointless, as we have nowhere near enough information on which to come to an appropriate conclusion as to whether we could win or not.