165 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

A) There are far more than just six answers to the Fermi paradox.

Somebody needs to go watch more Cosmos.

[Norman250]

Guys, don't you know anything? Didn't you watch any movies? The common cold will save us. The aliens will run naked without environment suits on the surface of a foreign planet, because they were intelligent enough to travel through space, but not intelligent enough to invent pants. They will drink our water, and die. Duh.

[Hexxys]

The fermi paradox first postulates that an alien race could/should have developed much earlier in the universe's lifetime.  This is not inherently fallacious speculation.  The problem lies in the "we should have heard from them by now" part.  This -is- a fallacious assumption, for many MANY reasons.

First, we have to remember that space time is perpetually expanding-- and has been ever since the moment of the big bang.  Even though the universe is only 13.7 billions years old, it is significantly larger than 13.7 billion light years across by now.  Aliens that may have developed 5 billions years ago are much further away from us than 5 billion light years.  Radio waves move at the speed of light, but the NET result of their travel-- particularly over such HUGE distances-- is cumulatively hampered by the perpetual expansion of space.  "So what?" you ask?  Long story short, it's possible that alien radio waves have not reached us yet, even if they developed in the visible timeframe of the universe.  In a static universe, obviously we would have heard from them.  Not the case in an expanding universe.  If we blow ourselves up tomorrow, the furthest reaches of space wouldn't know about it for hundreds of billions of years.  The same is true of us detecting aliens.

Second, an alien species billions of years old would be so far beyond out comprehension that there's no reason the suspect that we'd be able to detect them even if they were right under our proverbial noses.  The things we can do now would have seemed like MAGIC to people only a couple hundred years ago.  They quite simply would not be able to comprehend even our most basic consumer technology, such as cell phones or cars.  AND THAT'S ONLY 200 YEARS!  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A SCOPE OF THOUSANDS, MILLIONS, OR BILLIONS OF YEARS!  The term "incomprehensible" gets thrown around a lot and it loses a lot of its punch because of its careless use (:cough cough Bioware's reapers cough:).  However, you have to understand that you CANNOT understand what a billion-year-old civilization is like.  Or a million-year-old civilization.  Or even a civilization that has a couple thousand years head start on their technology than us.

Thirdly (and my last point because I'm tired), kind of just has a lot to do with my first point.  The universe is VAST.  It's hard to really imagine just how vast because we're not used to thinking about things on that scale.  It's really, REALLY huge.  The space between objects just in a galaxy is insurmountably huge.  Galaxies can "collide" and never have a single star actually crash into another because a galaxy's constituant parts are just THAT small and THAT far apart.  And galaxies are tiny-- microscopic, if you will-- compared to the overall size of the universe.  With that in mind, what chance do you really give our tiny little mudball of a planet of being discovered?  Even if a race could open wormholes to anywhere they want in space, they could search for millions of years before they even found microbial life-- let alone multicellular or even sentient life.

Modifié par Hexxys, 20 avril 2012 - 09:29 .

[tiger-tron]

Ah yes, "Reapers". We have dismissed that claim.

[Encarmine]

im going for number 6.

when you think it over, if the Human Race had spread accross planets, galaxies, and somhow remains a coherent single force (harder than u would think given evolution of humans on different planets, we wouldnt all look like 'earth' humans after a few hundred years) and we encountered a totally new species trying to uplift themselves to a multi planet civilisation. Im confidant, we would consider that a threat to our place in the universe and potentially wipe them out?

[The Invisible Commando]

Reality to me is one of two things: We are alone in the universe or life on other planets has not reached our point yet. Lets not forget we are descended from lucky mammals who survived the Earth's apocalypses. Yes, Earth has had at least two known end of times.

Don't forget the dinosaurs ruled the Earth for many years and where just big and dumb. Just because life might be out there, doesn't mean its like us. I know it's kinda sad to think that some angry, perverted apes is the best the universe can do, but it looks like it so far.

[Armass81]

There could be something way worse out there than the reapers, we simply dont know. Ignorance is bliss, right?

Modifié par Armass81, 20 avril 2012 - 09:38 .

[Adugan]

Encarmine wrote...

im going for number 6.

when you think it over, if the Human Race had spread accross planets, galaxies, and somhow remains a coherent single force (harder than u would think given evolution of humans on different planets, we wouldnt all look like 'earth' humans after a few hundred years) and we encountered a totally new species trying to uplift themselves to a multi planet civilisation. Im confidant, we would consider that a threat to our place in the universe and potentially wipe them out?

Hundred? So it is easy to visually identify a british person from an american person?

[mokbass87]

If they do exist we just need to make sure our EMS is high enough and when the time is right,we ask them to pick one of three colours,simple

[Laurencio]

tractrpl wrote...

The Reapers make a disturbingly effecient solution to the Fermi paradox. The Fermi paradox was positid by Henrico Fermi to his colleagues while on a lunch break while working on the Mahattan Project.  He came to the conclusion that it should take any spacefaring civilization at most a few million years to colonize the entire galaxy, even assuming ponderously slower than light travel. This is a blink of an eye in galactic time scales. Therefore, either advanced civilization don't exist, or something else might happen.

Several solutions to the Fermi paradox include:
1) The rarity of Earth. Either habitable worlds are very rare,we may be the only civilization
2) A star like the sun is unlikely to produce life, so most civilizations ingnore our star.  
3) It's rare for civilizations to survive past a certain technological level
4) Advanced civilizations evolve away from biological level, don't require habitable planets, and so ignore us
5) They have a non-intervention policy, note that this one is very implausible because if a civilization exists, the likelihood that some of its members decide to "break ranks" and make contact, for ill or for good, is overwhelming
6) There's only one advanced civilization in existence and it destroys all other civilizations it encounters.  This one is deemed probable by no one other than Stephen Hawking.

If number 6 is true, then basically we're all toast. The only way we could defeat such a civilization is through sheer luck, up to including their architect giving up and saying "I'm tired of winning all the time".  

It's also possible that if there are advanced species out there their way of thinking is completely different from ours. These "solutions" rely entirely on human reasoning, human logic, human sociol construct and theory as well as human understanding. If Aliens do not share these patterns of thinking then none of the solutions make any sense.

[Gwtheyrn]

More likely that our star is just one relatively small and insignificant one in a galaxy with trillions of solar systems. Space is big. Unfathomably big. At current achievable speeds, it would still take tens of thousands of years to get to our nearest galactic neighbor, the Alpha Centauri system.

To put the distances into perspective, if Sol were a grain of sand, Alpha Centauri would be another grain of sand 10 kilometers away.

[Darth_Trethon]

tractrpl wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

i believe #3 is the most viable out of these arguments. think of it as humans evolving to use 100% of their brain capacity instead of the 3% or however small it is now. and as for number 6, hawking may be smart, but his theories on aliens sound more science fictiony than the damn reapers themselves

That 3% number is a complete myth. We use almost all of our brain capacity. Also, "Such and such may be smart", well he's certainly smarter than you, so it would be best for you to shut up and listen.

Fascinating topic.....or maybe I'm just a little crazy...probably a bit of both.

Anyway on with my point:

This is a tricky one and I've had discussions on this with some of my college professors.....statistically speaking as far as science can tell yes that is correct....we do use all our brain but that accounts strictly for neurons firing not really efficiency and potential. I personally have experienced great shifts in learning and understanding capability where things that previously felt insanely difficult to understand became very easy and ended up learning nearly efforlessly years later without much practice or structured effort to improve in the area....it just happened. I can easily see how someone that may appear to be stupid or not very smart could greatly improve and if you look at how the human racee has developed technology in barely a few decades after thousands upon thousands of years of existence there is solid reason to believe there's a lot more where that came from and we basrely started touching a fraction of our potential. So yes....it is quite possible that we only use a fraction of our brains....just like a computer may only use a fractionn of its hard drive....just because it accesses the entire thing all the time and may place programs in any particular point does not mean that it is filled or particularly well organized....most of it could contain useless junk and defragmentation may shock us with the ammount of space freed. See what I'm getting at?

Then all these so called "experts" and "doctors" always tend to have many disagreements about about quite a lot of so called "facts".....hell a few centuries back you could be legally executed for saying the Earth may not be flat and a lot of the great minds of the time would not have disagreed. Make no mistake....we are still fubling children about a great many things....it's just that we have not found out yet because if we did we'd know better.

As for reapers being real....well....the game's story can be interpreted in a lot of different ways and the whole savior bit(named Shepard no less) infers heavy biblical references and kind of falls into the whole byblical end type thing of a day of reckoning when Jesus returns and on and on and on except with a quasi-scientifical and slightly more believable paintover and interpretation.....I don't buy either.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 20 avril 2012 - 01:52 .

[Peranor]

Encarmine wrote...

im going for number 6.

when you think it over, if the Human Race had spread accross planets, galaxies, and somhow remains a coherent single force (harder than u would think given evolution of humans on different planets, we wouldnt all look like 'earth' humans after a few hundred years) and we encountered a totally new species trying to uplift themselves to a multi planet civilisation. Im confidant, we would consider that a threat to our place in the universe and potentially wipe them out?

this whole discussion made me want to go number 2...

[Darth_Trethon]

anorling wrote...

Encarmine wrote...

im going for number 6.

when you think it over, if the Human Race had spread accross planets, galaxies, and somhow remains a coherent single force (harder than u would think given evolution of humans on different planets, we wouldnt all look like 'earth' humans after a few hundred years) and we encountered a totally new species trying to uplift themselves to a multi planet civilisation. Im confidant, we would consider that a threat to our place in the universe and potentially wipe them out?

this whole discussion made me want to go number 2...

There's always number 7....

Most civilizations are weary of trying to mess with new solar systems never knowing what threats they may find. Sort of like the council prohibited the activation and usage of any yet unexplored mass relays after the rachni wars in mass effect.

Plus humans are dangerous and insane....all out small suabbles that caused devastating wars and nuclear weapons....hell when was this planet completely peaceful last. I'm sure any advanced species would be just thrilled about starting negotiations and talks with us....plus the danger of us becoming space faring would likely not be deemed worth the risk.

Oh look, new people....let's go say hi...

***hours later*** "holy crap what are they doing to our messanger's brain and intestines......nevermind just recover our ship and let's get the hell out of here..."

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 20 avril 2012 - 02:01 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Actually the sun is a pretty rare type of yellow dwarf. Astronomers have only found one other similar to it so far. This doesn't mean there are not others. This also doesn't mean it is the only type of star that can support life on its planets. I read this in Astronomy magazine a couple years back.

Most of the planets that have been discovered so far have been either gas giants or terrestrial types that have been too large to support life as we know it. Astronomers have discovered a couple with water which might show promise.

Forget anything orbiting any blue or white giants. They're too short lived for life to evolve, and then there's the radiation issues.

Red dwarfs? very long lives. Might be good candidates if they have planets with water orbiting.

Setting up a research colony on the moon is going to cost $$$ and on Mars would cost $$$$$, and that probably won't happen in our lifetimes. We're broke. Terraforming? You've got to have a planet that has a gravitational field that can hold the oxygen, and that will cost $ trillions to do, but when the resources on earth are depleted we're going to have to do something else go the way of the dinosaur.

I don't think humans are ready for first contact at the moment, however. You just know that the first contact would end up with a landing in NE Kentucky or somewhere in Nebraska (the part with one radio station for miles and miles). No offense to anyone living there.

[tractrpl]

Ok, lots of input since I went to work and came back.

First thing I'll point out is that whether FTL travel is impossible or not is irrelevant. ENRICO Fermi (thanks for the correct spelling) noted that any civilization with our mental capabilities should have the entire galaxy colonized within a few million years. Considering that the universe is 13 billion years old, that's a ridiculously short amount of time. I will also mention that faster than light travel is technically possible according to general relativity, and we are aware that certain parts of the universe are presumed to be traveling away from us faster than light, but those regions are beyond the cosmological horizon. The key to determining how to make FTL travel possible is this little thing called the theory of quantum gravity, also known as the theory of everything. If this theory is finally discovered and fully fleshed out, each part of the theory and implications fully understood, then we could use it to find a way, engineer a mechanism, to make FTL travel possible. The theory of everything could also show how FTL travel to be practically impossible, even if it is theoretically possible, we just don't know yet.

The second thing I'll mention is that those who believe in possibility #3, I'll let you guys know that many scientists are starting to find that scenario to be less and less likely, at least for our civilization. This is because 7 billion is a ridiculously large number.

Total nuclear war is unlikely to kill us all. First of all, the nuclear blasts will only kill a small fraction of the total human population.

But what about the nuclear fallout and the nuclear winter? Humans survived a global catastrophe before about 90,000 years ago, a volcanic eruption that created a volcanic winter for several years much worse in scale than any theorized nuclear winter. We survived, yet we had very primitive tech and a much smaller starting population.

Well what about the nuclear radiation? Well, first of all H-bombs don't spread as much radioactive waste as you might expect for a bomb its size. Secondly, just look at Chernoblyl. Chernobyl is still considered dangerous, but it is currently home to the most amazing natural perserve on the earth. All of those animals and plants are incredibly radioactive and all suffer from immense radiation poisoning. So how do they survive? Well many die from cancer, but the cancer doesn't become deadly until 30-50 years later. Nuclear radiation would shorten our lifespan, but not enough to prevent us from giving birth to healthy children, and in a 5 generations, there'd wouldn't be enough radioactive waste to harm our long lifespans anyway.

In short, total nuclear war isn't enough to kill us, but it coud cause use to backslide tech-wise, but we'd recover from that eventually and move forward. No other catastrophe short of a dinosaur killer type asteroid is likely to kill us all as well, including environmental collapse from pollution or global warming. Such an event would kill many of us but leave the more adaptable members of our species breathing. Even the asteroid impact theory is unlikely to happen in the near future. So, more than likely under any known catastrophe, we'd likely recover and still eventually reach the stars.

Modifié par tractrpl, 20 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[clarkusdarkus]

just give us all one cain weapon each and let them at us!!!! or the hammer of dawn from gears of war/mass effect 3..

[tractrpl]

Bill Casey wrote...

A few things to point out...

- Our world population growth is diminishing. At current projections, it should level off at around 9 Billion
- Our global food supply/production is increasing
- Compared to human history, humanity is slowly becoming more and more tolerant and understanding of other cultures. This is no small part due to an information explosion.
- Nasa has stopped sending people into space

Perhaps in the future, trying to colonize other worlds an absurd distance away will be seen as a completely unnecessary waste of time, money and energy. The sheer amount of fuel required alone is... well, it's astronomical...

First of all, private companies might pick up where NASA left off. Secondly, future generations might find a way to make fuel more easily or find more efficient means of propulsion or both, thus launching spacecraft into space might be come cheaper and cheaper and easier and easier and the next thing we know, we're travelling to space despite NASA.  Hundreds of years into the future is hard to predict. Just because NASA backslid these last few decades doesn't mean that space exploration is going to go out the window forever.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

TheBlackRose wrote...

The Reapers do exist. I've seen them.

Their leader dropped out of the presidential primary race like a week ago.

Just gonna step in here for a second and mentioned this made me laugh.

[tractrpl]

count_4 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...
Also, "Such and such may be smart", well he's certainly smarter than you, so it would be best for you to shut up and listen.

You just disqualified yourself from any discussion.

I hate it when people say "Such and such is smart, but (some lousy excuse given to dismiss some argument they don't like)". If that person is smarter than you, then likely they've thought about the problem more deeply than you, considered viewpoints you never even imagined, used evidence you've never considered, and solved the problem using mathematical and scientific knowledge you can't even comprehend. Therefore, their opinions are far and away more valuable than yours. 

If I had my way, only scientists and engineers would even be allowed to run for political office, and the President of the United States would be required to have a PhD in some scientific principle such as Physics, Chemistry, Biology, or Engineering, etc.  Such people would think more deeply about problems and make more informed decisions. The world would be a much better place if only smart people ruled.

Modifié par tractrpl, 20 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[JesseLee202]

Cyne wrote...

BBBRBRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[tractrpl]

Poshible wrote...

TheBlackRose wrote...

The Reapers do exist. I've seen them.

Their leader dropped out of the presidential primary race like a week ago.

Just gonna step in here for a second and mentioned this made me laugh.

LOL, he's not a Reaper, but an indoctrinated Udina.

[NoUserNameHere]

I dunno. Fermi's paradox as described doesn't seem to account for setbacks of any kinds in any alien civilization's space program. This was from a time when we were all supposed to have flying cars and robot maids, too, so there's that.

# Six doesn't seem sound either. If there were some Reapers preventing all other civilizations from advancing past the space age, would't we at least see their handiwork. Or do they just sit on their asses out in dark space?

[tractrpl]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

I dunno. Fermi's paradox as described doesn't seem to account for setbacks of any kinds in any alien civilization's space program. This was from a time when we were all supposed to have flying cars and robot maids, too, so there's that.

# Six doesn't seem sound either. If there were some Reapers preventing all other civilizations from advancing past the space age, would't we at least see their handiwork. Or do they just sit on their asses out in dark space?

There's not much we can actually "see" outside our own solar system at this point.

[Taboo]

TheBlackRose wrote...

The Reapers do exist. I've seen them.

Their leader dropped out of the presidential primary race like a week ago.

Full of win.