257 réponses à ce sujet

[Johcande XX]

Dridengx wrote...

Mad-Hamlet wrote...

My gf is very passionate about Mass Effect and she actually liked the endings, and she writes fanfic for many website groups. She tells me all the people she talks to be it in chats, forums, or in RL all of them either like the ending or don't care. The only people i've seen have any problem with ME3 is BSN. The same people on BSN are the same people who post the same thing on facebook or tumblr etc if you notice. There really is only about 12 fanatic anti enders on this site, the rest follow the leaders.

These 12 are the same who caused the cupcake interviews, press articles, and everything including lawsuits and reporting. sure 60,000 or so didn't like the ending but only a dozen are crazy

Than she is moving in rarified circles since that donation drive and the other reactions didn't not just happen from people in BSN. For the most part people who share those feelings keep themselves to themselves just as your girlfriend sounds like she's doing.

So, your argument boils down too- I've never met any people from Africa so there must not be any.

Actually the cupcake guys posted here a few times bragging about his interviews with a radio show and other stuff. he is on BSN and has posted here about the endings. so your theory is wrong. Go to any other forum no one cares but BSN and its the same 12 whiners. just look for yourself before you call someone out

As far as this ENTIRE sh**storm being caused by 12 whiners and 60k sheep; . . . I don't care.    Because it's seems to be working.  It sounds like you are trying to marginalize the people who are speaking out, though the fact that they've already made an impact on BW/EA plans means that your kinda just bullsh***ing here.

[Muhkida]

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

What really outrages me is the way BW has responded. They've never given us a straight answer. They've portrayed us like we were entitled, or a vocal minority, or just didn't get it--They've treated us like opponents. They've lied to us. They've acted like they're doing us a favor. They've ignored us. Then they turn around and try to use our by-this-point-real outrage to sell this game? Out. Raged.

What makes you think all of that? I don't feel like an opponent and I certainly do not feel like I'm being ignored. 

I'll answer the last sentence that stcalvin13 stated for you.  He means that misleading Entertainment Weekly ad.  Got to give them props for it though, whether you liked the ad or not.

Modifié par Muhkida, 20 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[kingscawt]

count_4 wrote...
But, same as with me, it wasn't so much anger as it was severe disappointment about how BioWare managed to mess this trilogy up so badly in the last 5 minutes. They had the chance to do something great and just dropped the ball.

The actual anger came later, with all the PR spin, the arrogant crap of their employees talking down to us and in the Final Hours app plus the sorry excuses why this ending is actually really great. Not to forget the lies we were told beforehand...
That's were the anger comes from. Not the ending itself.

I scratch my head at the "employees talking down to us" bit, but I do really apperciate your public relations view point, its actually very new to me. Thank you for posting. 

[howieloader]

[quote]kingscawt wrote...

[quote]howieloader wrote...

[quote]kingscawt wrote...

For clearification - RL: real life, a face to face civil conversation with someone I consider knowledgeable in the ME universe not surrounded by other people, thier actual opinion unbiased. I only mentioned MP as an example and for the sake of bringing up even people playing the game seem to not have this odd enraged opinion more common on the forums. Once again I say please don't try to insult my intelligence, I understand what hyperbole is.  
[/quote]

Which is and will be in every instance a purely isolated event that is in no way idicative of trends of the greater whole...

[quote]
You're becoming a little more belligerent as the post goes on, and I think you're proving my point as we go. Why would I ask the forum's actual opinion anywhere else but the forum?
[/quote]

Of course I was, you asked for people's opinion but on two seperate instances qualified some of the opinions as as childish or less than meaningful... "Dirty diaper blood rage" is intended to lessen the value of people with X opinion in the face of other individuals... If one was truly seeking opinions, casting a group of people with the opinion you're looking for as nothing more than over-reacting children is probably going to skew your results rather significantly since some will read and say "This guy's a dbag" and move on without voicing their opinion...

You're asking me not to belittle your intelligence, you're not making it easy...

EDIT: I screwed up the formatting

Modifié par howieloader, 20 avril 2012 - 08:29 .

[Joeybsmooth4]

kingscawt wrote...

I'm sorry you feel embarrassed, but I feel like Bioware dropped the ball

Agreed, 100%. But, I still can't wrap my head around the whole take back movements. Not the concepts, I understand them completely, just the people who swear by these movements. Hate to use the entitled fans argument here but it's really how I feel when I'm forced to sit on the fence for this long. 

So I guess if you to a Burger King , and they give a bowl of cabbage in place of your fries you would be entiitled to ask for your fries or at least your money back.

[kingscawt]

Muhkida wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

What really outrages me is the way BW has responded. They've never given us a straight answer. They've portrayed us like we were entitled, or a vocal minority, or just didn't get it--They've treated us like opponents. They've lied to us. They've acted like they're doing us a favor. They've ignored us. Then they turn around and try to use our by-this-point-real outrage to sell this game? Out. Raged.

What makes you think all of that? I don't feel like an opponent and I certainly do not feel like I'm being ignored. 

I'll answer the last question for you.  He means that misleading Entertainment Weekly ad.  Got to give them props for it though, whether you liked the ad or not.

Aye I was actually pretty shocked when I read the EW ad, devilish indeed. Dirty, but smart. 

[Cazychel]

I am as disappointed as I say. The ending is just crap on so many levels.

[CheeseEnchilada]

There were definitely strong reactions to the ending in my circle of gamers. The one person who had a positive reaction believed that the three color-changing choices would only appear if you didn't have enough EMS, and the 'real' ending was tucked away somewhere. She was not pleased when I told her the truth. There's been a wide range of 'outrage'--some of my friends and co-workers were frothing at the mouth, and others were just disappointed.

That being said, I think it's difficult for one to say that all the negativity stems from the BSN, or on the flip side, that no one actually likes the ending. That's clearly not the case. In my personal experience, the reception to the endings were all negative, with different shades of 'outrage'. It's going to be different for someone else.

From a personal viewpoint on the endings, I dislike them for various reasons, but I'm not outraged anymore. I'm a little sad, but I'm going to give the 'clarification' DLC a chance. If it's not to my liking, I simply won't download it and move on.

Modifié par CheeseEnchilada, 20 avril 2012 - 08:30 .

[kingscawt]

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

I'm sorry you feel embarrassed, but I feel like Bioware dropped the ball

Agreed, 100%. But, I still can't wrap my head around the whole take back movements. Not the concepts, I understand them completely, just the people who swear by these movements. Hate to use the entitled fans argument here but it's really how I feel when I'm forced to sit on the fence for this long. 

So I guess if you to a Burger King , and they give a bowl of cabbage in place of your fries you would be entiitled to ask for your fries or at least your money back.

I think I understand what you're saying and I agree but it all just seems a bit eccentric.

[Hexxys]

OP, you're putting too much stock in your own anecdotal evidence.  Anyway, anonymity can bring the worst out of people...  But it sometimes also coaxes the truth out of them as well.

[stcalvin13]

kingscawt wrote...

Muhkida wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

What really outrages me is the way BW has responded. They've never given us a straight answer. They've portrayed us like we were entitled, or a vocal minority, or just didn't get it--They've treated us like opponents. They've lied to us. They've acted like they're doing us a favor. They've ignored us. Then they turn around and try to use our by-this-point-real outrage to sell this game? Out. Raged.

What makes you think all of that? I don't feel like an opponent and I certainly do not feel like I'm being ignored. 

I'll answer the last question for you.  He means that misleading Entertainment Weekly ad.  Got to give them props for it though, whether you liked the ad or not.

Aye I was actually pretty shocked when I read the EW ad, devilish indeed. Dirty, but smart. 

IDK how smart it is.  It will certainly get them some business in the short run, but fans will be pissed and when those who buy the game figure out what the fan reaction really was about, they'll feel lied to.  So, in the long run they may just make even more people distrust them.  Maybe it will work for them.  I hope not.

[Joeybsmooth4]

kingscawt wrote...

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

I'm sorry you feel embarrassed, but I feel like Bioware dropped the ball

Agreed, 100%. But, I still can't wrap my head around the whole take back movements. Not the concepts, I understand them completely, just the people who swear by these movements. Hate to use the entitled fans argument here but it's really how I feel when I'm forced to sit on the fence for this long. 

So I guess if you to a Burger King , and they give a bowl of cabbage in place of your fries you would be entiitled to ask for your fries or at least your money back.

I think I understand what you're saying and I agree but it all just seems a bit eccentric.

In my view 80 bucks is a lot of money . They did not give people what they promised. Wanting what you spent your hard earn money on is not being entilted, it is just wanting what you paided for. Most people who hate the ending are not raging. They just want what they paid for . 

[daecath]

Here's my response to "It's just a game".

For me, it wasn't "just a game". It was something I invested a part of myself in. Like any good actor taking on a role, I put much of myself into the character. I became invested in the other characters, the relationships, and the story. The absolutely asinine, illiterate, and ridiculous way that they chose to end the game felt like a betrayal. It was a betrayal of the story, a betrayal of the fans, and a betrayal of themselves.

And I became depressed after seeing the endings. I cried when they announced that they weren't actually going to do anything to fix them except make them longer. I am pissed that they could turn their backs on all the quality work they've done. I wish that I could make them understand.

So yeah, maybe when push comes to shove, "it's just a game". But you see, the thing is, everyone has a "just a". It's just a car. It's just a sport team. It's just a painting. It's just a book. It's just a hunk of shaped plastic. It's just a piece of metal with a picture pressed into it. It's just a little piece of paper with a picture printed on it and some glue on the back. Everyone has that one thing that they're passionate about, that one thing that most of the rest of the world would look at and say "but it's just a". This is mine. And I hope nobody destroys yours the way BioWare has destroyed this, and that no one insults you for getting upset if someone does.

[kingscawt]

howieloader wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

For clearification - RL: real life, a face to face civil conversation with someone I consider knowledgeable in the ME universe not surrounded by other people, thier actual opinion unbiased. I only mentioned MP as an example and for the sake of bringing up even people playing the game seem to not have this odd enraged opinion more common on the forums. Once again I say please don't try to insult my intelligence, I understand what hyperbole is.  

Which is and will be in every instance a purely isolated event that is in no way idicative of trends of the greater whole...

You're becoming a little more belligerent as the post goes on, and I think you're proving my point as we go. Why would I ask the forum's actual opinion anywhere else but the forum?

Of course I was, you asked for people's opinion but on two seperate instances qualified some of the opinions as as childish or less than meaningful... "Dirty diaper blood rage" is intended to lessen the value of people with X opinion in the face of other individuals... If one was truly seeking opinions, and was truly seeking an opinion, casting a group of people with the opinion you're looking for as nothing more than over-reacting children is probably going to skew your results rather significantly since some will read and say "This guy's a dbag" and move on without voicing their opinion...

You're asking me not to belittle your intelligence, you're not making it easy...

EDIT: I screwed up the formatting

Completely missed the entire message I was attempting to get across. Leaving the socially accepted opinion behind and giving me a real one is what I wanted, I was unconvinced that 98% of the forums has the exact same opinion word for word. Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it. As far as insulting my intelligence goes, I do not feel insulted because I'm above petty insults, I just asked that if you continue this conversation to TRY not to try and belittle me. Not only is it ineffective but it really just proves my point a little more. Belligerency is not an opinion, by the way.  

[count_4]

kingscawt wrote...

count_4 wrote...
But, same as with me, it wasn't so much anger as it was severe disappointment about how BioWare managed to mess this trilogy up so badly in the last 5 minutes. They had the chance to do something great and just dropped the ball.

The actual anger came later, with all the PR spin, the arrogant crap of their employees talking down to us and in the Final Hours app plus the sorry excuses why this ending is actually really great. Not to forget the lies we were told beforehand...
That's were the anger comes from. Not the ending itself.

I scratch my head at the "employees talking down to us" bit

What I mainly meant with that is the repeated implication(and sometimes even flat-out accusation) that everyone who dislikes the ending is a) part of just a very vwhiney, entitled minority and simply not intelligent enough to understand the artists intend behind the ending. 
To stick with the popular food analogy: It's like a restaurant serving a turd instead of your ordered steak and telling you, you're just too stupid to appreciate the chefs artistic vision when you complain.

[howieloader]

kingscawt wrote...

howieloader wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

For clearification - RL: real life, a face to face civil conversation with someone I consider knowledgeable in the ME universe not surrounded by other people, thier actual opinion unbiased. I only mentioned MP as an example and for the sake of bringing up even people playing the game seem to not have this odd enraged opinion more common on the forums. Once again I say please don't try to insult my intelligence, I understand what hyperbole is.  

Which is and will be in every instance a purely isolated event that is in no way idicative of trends of the greater whole...

You're becoming a little more belligerent as the post goes on, and I think you're proving my point as we go. Why would I ask the forum's actual opinion anywhere else but the forum?

Of course I was, you asked for people's opinion but on two seperate instances qualified some of the opinions as as childish or less than meaningful... "Dirty diaper blood rage" is intended to lessen the value of people with X opinion in the face of other individuals... If one was truly seeking opinions, and was truly seeking an opinion, casting a group of people with the opinion you're looking for as nothing more than over-reacting children is probably going to skew your results rather significantly since some will read and say "This guy's a dbag" and move on without voicing their opinion...

You're asking me not to belittle your intelligence, you're not making it easy...

EDIT: I screwed up the formatting

Completely missed the entire message I was attempting to get across. Leaving the socially accepted opinion behind and giving me a real one is what I wanted, I was unconvinced that 98% of the forums has the exact same opinion word for word. Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it. As far as insulting my intelligence goes, I do not feel insulted because I'm above petty insults, I just asked that if you continue this conversation to TRY not to try and belittle me. Not only is it ineffective but it really just proves my point a little more. Belligerency is not an opinion, by the way.  

Complaining because you don't like something could be rationalized as childish, complaining because you bought a product that was falsely advertised is called being a good consumer...

The "above petty insults" quote basically tells me at this point you're trolling... Your OP had petty insults in it... Derp:wizard:

[Bludger133]

I work in a very large company that has well over 200 gamers in it, at least 30 of whom are Mass Effect fans. Only one has said that he didn't mind the endings. Several others were indifferent, and the rest were bitterly disappointed in how EA / Bioware chose to end the series and felt cheated. I would only classify two as being truly outraged.

How many of them will buy future Bioware games? According to their statements, less than half unless something amazing turns up in the EC. The two outraged players have vowed never to purchase anything from Bioware ever again.

As for "demanding the endings we want", that is BS stirred up via the media with (I suspect) a lot of help from Bioware/EA PR. Most of my workmates "want" what I think most fans expected (were lead to expect): an ending that makes sense in the context of the series and that has a graduated range of possible outcomes depending on the choices they made and missions they completed along the way.

A little bit of fanfare and closure would be the icing on the cake, but not critical.

Modifié par Bludger133, 20 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[kingscawt]

daecath wrote...

Here's my response to "It's just a game".

For me, it wasn't "just a game". It was something I invested a part of myself in. Like any good actor taking on a role, I put much of myself into the character. I became invested in the other characters, the relationships, and the story. The absolutely asinine, illiterate, and ridiculous way that they chose to end the game felt like a betrayal. It was a betrayal of the story, a betrayal of the fans, and a betrayal of themselves.

And I became depressed after seeing the endings. I cried when they announced that they weren't actually going to do anything to fix them except make them longer. I am pissed that they could turn their backs on all the quality work they've done. I wish that I could make them understand.

So yeah, maybe when push comes to shove, "it's just a game". But you see, the thing is, everyone has a "just a". It's just a car. It's just a sport team. It's just a painting. It's just a book. It's just a hunk of shaped plastic. It's just a piece of metal with a picture pressed into it. It's just a little piece of paper with a picture printed on it and some glue on the back. Everyone has that one thing that they're passionate about, that one thing that most of the rest of the world would look at and say "but it's just a". This is mine. And I hope nobody destroys yours the way BioWare has destroyed this, and that no one insults you for getting upset if someone does.

But you see, my passion is video gaming, I've always loved the Mass Effect series and was heavily, very heavily invested in the story and progression as a whole which you would have saw in my original post, I understand how you feel I feel just as dissapointed but seemingly to a lesser extent, or less poetic extent at least. I certainly didn't cry or become depressed in the common layman's terms  but I was still very much effected by it. I wasn't trying to insult anyone, I was trying to get an honest opinion instead of copy and paste opinions. Even though it is my passion, I hate to say it but it is just a game. A lot of games have done this over the years but this is the only one that's really be brought to the lime light and it's caused a flock of sheep to castrate themselves upon the opinions of others. I respect your opinion and admire your dedication to the series but I do not agree with the methods that are being used.

Modifié par kingscawt, 20 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[stcalvin13]

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

They've portrayed us like we were entitled, or a vocal minority, or just didn't get it--They've treated us like opponents. They've ignored us.

What makes you think all of that? I don't feel like an opponent and I certainly do not feel like I'm being ignored. 

I don't know how you can't feel that way.  Maybe you don't support retake, but I think even those that don't should find BW's stance offensive.  

Rather than responding to us giving us some explaination as to why the ending was that way, or what they were going for, or why they think it's a good ending, or apologizing they've been cryptic and vague.  Everything we've gotten from them has been part of a larger PR campaign.  They aren't trying to interact with us, they're trying to outmaneuver us in a chess game for public opinion.  That's not how one treats fans.

As for ignoring us, they've told us that they are listening but they haven't responded to us.  They said they'll give us "further closure" but that's not what most people want, and haven't told us what that amounts to.

BW doesn't have to do everything we want, but if they had just come out and been honest with us--even if that was nothing more than "Look we aren't changing the ending.  But here's why we did it and we'll answer your questions" 
I could have respected--and vehemently disagreed with--that.

Non-retakers should take notice.  BW isn't behaving this way because they like you better.

[NubXL]

Outraged.

[stcalvin13]

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

[kingscawt]

howieloader wrote...

Complaining because you don't like something could be rationalized as childish, complaining because you bought a product that was falsely advertised is called being a good consumer...

The "above petty insults" quote basically tells me at this point you're trolling... Your OP had petty insults in it... Derp:wizard:

I don't see petty insults in my OP, at least I did mean any to come across in my couple paragraphs, you taking personal offence to them is your own problem not a lessen of my point, you just seem to have a realllllyyyy hard to seeing it. Others have grasped it pretty well and put up fantastic arguments, yours is just.. prolonged and well, honestly, a little dissapointing because it's exactly what I was talking about in the OP. Your opinion isn't "wrong" by any means but it is absolutely childish, your retake banner and often usage of "derp" and even calling me a troll proves as such. Although I have an adversion to protesting in general so I may be a little biased, it just blows my mind that people would go to this extent. Maybe it's because I'm an artist and would never, EVER change my vision for a painting because someone didn't like it, regardless of how many people said to. 

[Essla]

The hostility isn't entirely a result of the ending itself. It's a result of what happened after people voiced their initial disappointment with the ending. The gaming press praised the game and called the fans entitled. Other players said that the ending was fine and called them whiners. Bioware bumbled through some carefully-crafted PR responses that didn't address any of the issues the fans had. A lot of fans went from feeling disappointed to feeling marginalized and even condescended to.

Case in point:

My gf is very passionate about Mass Effect and she actually liked the endings, and she writes fanfic for many website groups. She tells me all the people she talks to be it in chats, forums, or in RL all of them either like the ending or don't care. The only people i've seen have any problem with ME3 is BSN. The same people on BSN are the same people who post the same thing on facebook or tumblr etc if you notice. There really is only about 12 fanatic anti enders on this site, the rest follow the leaders.

This is the sort of post that created the atmosphere you see now. Telling other people that their opinions don't count is inevitably going to provoke a hostile response. Rather than actually discussing the ending, people wind up arguing about whether their opinion is legitimate or not. That doesn't lead anywhere good. Trying to understand where the other side is coming from is paramount to having a real discussion about anything. But this is the internet; people just want to provoke each other and/or bunker down in their assertions, even if it means willful ignorance of the other side's perspective. (Kind of disappointing, given how much of Mass Effect is about understanding other perspectives.)

The demonization of EA began long before ME3. As many longtime fans see it, Bioware now has a history of failing to deliver what they promised, and that problem didn't start until after EA entered the picture. EA has become notorious for squeezing every last dollar out of a franchise -- their annual FIFA games are a good example of this. ME3's day-one DLC didn't help their cause. For many fans, placing the blame on EA allows them to hold out hope that Bioware is still the company they have supported for 10 years or more. Additionally, they feel that the only way to make their voices heard is to hit the company where it hurts, which means making noise about not buying their games. You ask why people continue to post about it, and it's because they actually do care about Bioware and the games they make. When you care about someone and they let you down, you don't just up and leave without a word. You make it clear that you don't like what they're doing and if it doesn't stop, you won't be able to support them anymore.

Any constructive criticism that people had about the endings has gotten lost in the shuffle, so you can't measure the ending controversy by these forums anymore. If you're really interested in understanding why people were so intensely disappointed, here's a video that voices a lot of the issues with the ending:

[Noelemahc]

Thread hop:

I was very very sad. Then very very angry. Everyone I know IRL didn't like the ending, some expressing their dislike with expletives, others having that understated type of rage that goes "They just... just... urgh", a few going "What were they thinking?!". I am yet to meet an IRL living breathing person who even only didn't mind the ending, let alone one that enjoyed it.

Perhaps all these "my friends..." references are indicative only of your social circles and their gaming preferences? If BW was to hold a centralized, LANGUAGE-INDEPENDENT (which is the cornerstone of the statistical discrepancies, everyone only acts as if the English-speaking part of the fanbase has a say or stake in all this) poll or survey on the endings, that would be more or less representative. And even then its results would be questioned because lots of people simply don't take surveys either way; and anti-enders, being the offended party, would be more interested in taking it to show their dislike.

[GuardianAngel470]

I've maintained that the endings made me numb, the media made me frustrated, and the Bioware PR made me furious.

I want a good EC because that's the only way I can determine whether to support Bioware in the future and because it would increase my enjoyment of the game. Bioware betrayed and then insulted my trust in them. They provided something that failed on multiple levels and fell back on insulting PR tactics to try and rationalize it away.

I understand not being able to publicly acknowledge a failure but refusal to make any sort of unofficial apology through these forums and to create any sort of respectful dialog is what pisses me off the most. It means they lack a level of personal responsibility I would expect from a 5 year old.

I've had a troubled childhood (of my own creation) and by age 7 even I admitted wrongdoing when I knew I was caught.

This is behavior I simply cannot accept.