257 réponses à ce sujet

[kingscawt]

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

[Blown_Apart]

Look, you wanna start forum posts to belittle those of us who dislike the endings, fine.... but declare that to be the case, don't say that you've not met people outraged by the endings, because people will either ignore you, or try to explain that the 'outrage' was coined by the media.

I heard about the leaks, saw forums arguing everything after the leaks, heard bioware was 'tweaking' the endings, and kept my Collectors edition preorder.

Got my copy, installed the game, got it working... played it over 3 days (WAY too much time spent playing it TBH.) First time I saw the ending was at 3:00 in the morning with work the next day... I went 'huh' and fell asleep.

Couple of days later, I checked youtube for links for the other endings.... my irritation started there.

Was I ever outraged? depends on your definition, what I began to realize was that what I had been expecting (based on news and interviews I had been devouring as I found them) was different to what I had gotten, not in the gameplay, but in the final ending sequence.I became annoyed... I started looking for answers as to what this was, I found the indoctrination theory... it made sense... it fitted... and it gave me hope... I'd enjoyed mass effect 1 and 2 throughout, and for a long time, I refused to believe that bioware really could have dropped the ball so badly.

Then they did PAX.

I am not outraged... I am saddened by the destruction of a company that has a record of producing a quality game, with a quality story... they can still make a quality game... but the fact that this kind of ending is considered 'acceptable' because they think answering nothing leads to 'lots of speculation' means that they are no longer focused on their story... Pixar succeeded as well as they did because they held the view 'story is king', and I am now convinced that bioware has begun to abandon it.

side note? reconciliation cannot be achieved if one party insists that there is no problem, bioware has marginalized people like me who cannot see how this ending fits with established Canon (go read the scathing discussions regarding 'deception' if you need to see why canon is important) and said that we simply need more 'clarification'.

[Aweus]

kingscawt wrote...
Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

I would be careful with this statement. You see, there can be varied and different reasons that makes different people tick. Honestly, this whole Mass Effect 3 ending drama is a very good life lesson for me. Why? Becouse I am now finding myself to be on the emotionally impacted side. I have a long history of observing dramas of this kind and usually I was the one who would say peope are overreacting. Not that I particulary fought with them or anything, I just moved on since things did not affected me. They had their wars to fight but those were not my wars. Now this ME3 ending comes (which I hate if you still didnt conluded) and I am dumbfounded. I really do care about Mass Effect and about potential fix to endings which Bioware may apply. I cant even explain why. It just makes me tick. It is important to me even if it is just a video game. People like to throw the "deal with it" catchphrase. You know what, if I absolutely had to, I could also use that line often in the past. Battlestar Galactica had a bad ending? DEAL WITH IT. Dragon Age 2 is below expectations? DEAL WITH IT. Michael Jackson died? DEAL WITH IT. Obama won the elections (if you happened to be against him)? DEAL WITH IT. Who died again? Whitney Houston? DEAL WITH IT. I know what you may think, that I am actually comparing a real person's death to a video game ending and how a horrible monster I am. But that is not the point. The point is, different events affect different people in a different way. If your parent will die it will be obviously a devastating blow for you but not as much as if a parent of your co-worker died. And when you take some parent of a random dude in random country you would probably care more about what to buy during your next visit in the supermarket (even if you dont admit it). My point here is that branding people childish just becouse they cry about thing which in your opinion is not worth crying for is a bit shortsighted. I think that if something can be childish it can be a FORM of complaining (yes, we have some people around here who dont know how to interact with Bioware in a more...mature way). But the fact that several people are sad/angry about current endings and they are trying to influence Bioware to do something about it is not as childish as you may think.

[kingscawt]

Noelemahc wrote...

Thread hop:

I was very very sad. Then very very angry. Everyone I know IRL didn't like the ending, some expressing their dislike with expletives, others having that understated type of rage that goes "They just... just... urgh", a few going "What were they thinking?!". I am yet to meet an IRL living breathing person who even only didn't mind the ending, let alone one that enjoyed it.

Perhaps all these "my friends..." references are indicative only of your social circles and their gaming preferences? If BW was to hold a centralized, LANGUAGE-INDEPENDENT (which is the cornerstone of the statistical discrepancies, everyone only acts as if the English-speaking part of the fanbase has a say or stake in all this) poll or survey on the endings, that would be more or less representative. And even then its results would be questioned because lots of people simply don't take surveys either way; and anti-enders, being the offended party, would be more interested in taking it to show their dislike.

It still seems a little misunderstood that I support BW deciding they're going to explain the endings, I'm saying I do not support people actively protesting they change thier vision because they don't like it. I don't like the endings, but I respect the people who made them enough to not do that. 

[Armass81]

Heres my honest feelings about the ending, even first time watching them:

[The Protheans]

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

You could just create a red hair slip and let people stick it on top of the brown hair to make it look better.
Not everyone has to put the red hair slip on it.

[Noelemahc]

I'm saying I do not support people actively protesting they change thier vision because they don't like it.

Well, a majority of Retakers protested not for "kill the ending, we hate it, it sucks harder than a black hole", but rather for "holy hell, people, you went back on your own promises to the point where you did the ONE thing you EXPLICITLY promised you wound NOT do, how do you sleep at night?"

My personal stance is "fine, keep the current ending if you love it so much, but could you please add back all the OTHER outcomes you've promised? at the very least, where's a "Reapers win, you lose" cutscene? Where's my "can we please not use this obvious Reaper trap of a device?" question, even if it's gonna be replied to with "Commander, it's our bestest best only chance!" -- an illusion of choice would be better than no choice". Everything else I had issues with, the EC is supposed to THEORETICALLY address, but I am rather skeptical of it ATM. I believe the Deus Ex Machina of Suckage can be redeemed without cutting it altogether, but as the twelve-step program reminds us, the first step is admitting the problem. Yelling loudly is a cheap and effective way to get BW to at least NOTICE there's a problem to begin with before they can admit they have it. The fact that they got the wrong message is currently a separate issue. Most of us didn't ask for clarifications, we asked for alternatives. Clarifications could work too, but they better be some thorough, super-awesome clarifications.

You might want to re-word the OP in that case, btw, because otherwise people will keep on making the same mistake - nobody ever reads a 2+ page thread all the way through unless it has naked people in it or they have OCD.

[Grimwick]

Well anger is just an outlet of disappointment so yeah I feel justified to be angry.
I mostly feel depressed though.

[stcalvin13]

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

You say that--many people do--but remember paintings and video games are different.  Movies and video games are different.  Books and video games are different.  Treating all art as though it is the same is not helpful.  Remember, Mass Effect has always been about co-operative story telling.  Casey Hudson called us co-creators with BW.  

Consider: BW was probably going to release some single player content for ME3.  That changes the game right there.  Maybe it doesn't undo part of the game, but niether do some of the proposals that retakers have made.  Consider the retakers who just want the option to tell the catalyst to go screw himself.  How is asking for more options in a game that all about your choices and a game that is going to be added to anyway childish?  That just isn't all that analogous to my demanding that you change your painting's hair color.

Moreover, Artists often reinterpret the endings of their work.  Easy example: End of raiders of the Lost Ark.  Indy and Marion look like they're living happily ever after.  Sequels come and we find out that's not the case.  There are more extreme examples of this as well.  The TV show Dallas once revealed that a whole season of the show had been a dream.  Obvious analog: indoctrination theory.  Maybe this is different, because BW would be basically forced to reinterpret the ending, but BW isn't a company of starving artists.  It's also company.

And all of this overlloks an important point.  It's entirely plausible that the ending isn't the ME-team's artistic vision.  It's only part of the team's artisti vision: namely Walters and Hudson's.  It certainly isn't DK's.  So this may all be moot.

[kingscawt]

Aweus wrote...

kingscawt wrote...
Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

I would be careful with this statement. You see, there can be varied and different reasons that makes different people tick. Honestly, this whole Mass Effect 3 ending drama is a very good life lesson for me. Why? Becouse I am now finding myself to be on the emotionally impacted side. I have a long history of observing dramas of this kind and usually I was the one who would say peope are overreacting. Not that I particulary fought with them or anything, I just moved on since things did not affected me. They had their wars to fight but those were not my wars. Now this ME3 ending comes (which I hate if you still didnt conluded) and I am dumbfounded. I really do care about Mass Effect and about potential fix to endings which Bioware may apply. I cant even explain why. It just makes me tick. It is important to me even if it is just a video game. People like to throw the "deal with it" catchphrase. You know what, if I absolutely had to, I could also use that line often in the past. Battlestar Galactica had a bad ending? DEAL WITH IT. Dragon Age 2 is below expectations? DEAL WITH IT. Michael Jackson died? DEAL WITH IT. Obama won the elections (if you happened to be against him)? DEAL WITH IT. Who died again? Whitney Houston? DEAL WITH IT. I know what you may think, that I am actually comparing a real person's death to a video game ending and how a horrible monster I am. But that is not the point. The point is, different events affect different people in a different way. If your parent will die it will be obviously a devastating blow for you but not as much as if a parent of your co-worker died. And when you take some parent of a random dude in random country you would probably care more about what to buy during your next visit in the supermarket (even if you dont admit it). My point here is that branding people childish just becouse they cry about thing which in your opinion is not worth crying for is a bit shortsighted. I think that if something can be childish it can be a FORM of complaining (yes, we have some people around here who dont know how to interact with Bioware in a more...mature way). But the fact that several people are sad/angry about current endings and they are trying to influence Bioware to do something about it is not as childish as you may think.

Excellent post, and I understood what you meant as far as your comparisions to an extent. But I still stand by my opinion that video games are an art not a pack of trading cards, people's visions and minds went into this and telling someone they should alter that piece of art because you don't like it is childish in my mind, I don't understand the mind of one that would think otherwise, but it's all view point I suppose. 

[wicked_being]

Well I think people have cooled down a bit. After all, it has been over a month since the excrement hit the fan. A lot of people aren't "outraged" anymore (if by outrage you mean people are frothing at the mouth and raging), and hopefully less people are depressed now...but that doesn't mean they're not angry anymore.

If anything, I would say it's just hit the "dormant" stage.

[kingscawt]

Blown_Apart wrote...

Look, you wanna start forum posts to belittle those of us who dislike the endings, fine.... 

<_< Oh come on. 

[Essla]

kingscawt wrote...
Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

There's a difference between "artistic integrity" and a stubborn refusal to factor feedback into your work. Artists change things all the time because of feedback. Bioware certainly has in the past. They've mentioned several things they changed or added because of fan feedback. Tali and Garrus as romance options, as one example. We're not talking about putting underwear on the David here. Bioware is a business, and this is about keeping their customers happy.

Modifié par Essla, 20 avril 2012 - 09:25 .

[kingscawt]

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

You say that--many people do--but remember paintings and video games are different.  Movies and video games are different.  Books and video games are different.  Treating all art as though it is the same is not helpful.  Remember, Mass Effect has always been about co-operative story telling.  Casey Hudson called us co-creators with BW.  

Consider: BW was probably going to release some single player content for ME3.  That changes the game right there.  Maybe it doesn't undo part of the game, but niether do some of the proposals that retakers have made.  Consider the retakers who just want the option to tell the catalyst to go screw himself.  How is asking for more options in a game that all about your choices and a game that is going to be added to anyway childish?  That just isn't all that analogous to my demanding that you change your painting's hair color.

Moreover, Artists often reinterpret the endings of their work.  Easy example: End of raiders of the Lost Ark.  Indy and Marion look like they're living happily ever after.  Sequels come and we find out that's not the case.  There are more extreme examples of this as well.  The TV show Dallas once revealed that a whole season of the show had been a dream.  Obvious analog: indoctrination theory.  Maybe this is different, because BW would be basically forced to reinterpret the ending, but BW isn't a company of starving artists.  It's also company.

And all of this overlloks an important point.  It's entirely plausible that the ending isn't the ME-team's artistic vision.  It's only part of the team's artisti vision: namely Walters and Hudson's.  It certainly isn't DK's.  So this may all be moot.

Yes I agree all mediums of expression are different but consider this as a counter point: at thier core they are just that, expression. I refuse to believe BW released this product only to make money, which meant the story, characters, everything was apart of someones vision and therefore should not be pressured into being changed, how are we better than a pressuring publisher if we pressure the artists into releasing something they do not want to? If this was merely a money cow begging to be milked I would support a protest of changing what I did not like about the game. I would touch on your other points but I think that really explains how I feel about it, I support a new ending at the artist's will, not at the consumer's. The all mighty dollar does indeed make the world go around and feed the families of those who create the art but isn't cartering to the money what Retake is in itself trying to stop? But in turn is causing? 

Modifié par kingscawt, 20 avril 2012 - 09:26 .

[stcalvin13]

kingscawt wrote...

Yes I agree all mediums of expression are different but consider this as a counter point: at thier core they are just that, expression. I refuse to believe BW released this product only to make money, which meant the story, characters, everything was apart of someones vision and therefore should not be pressured into being changed, how are we better than a pressuring publisher if we pressure the artists into releasing something they do not want to? If this was merely a money cow begging to be milked I would support a protest of changing what I did not like about the game. I would touch on your other points but I think that really explains how I feel about it, I support a new ending at the artist's will, not at the consumer's. The all mighty dollar does indeed make the world go around and feed the families of those who create the art but isn't cartering to the money but Retake is in itself trying to stop? But in turn is causing? 

The central point of disagreement, I think, is this: "everything was apart of someones vision and therefore should not be pressured into being changed."

I don't buy your therefore.  It seems to imply that the fans should never give their imput on DLC, since that changes part of the game and thus part of the artist's vision.  But that's not right.  

Maybe you think that there's a difference between suggesting the company do X and forcing them to do X, but obviously BW hasn't been forced into doing anything and anyways when it comes to a product I don't see much of a difference.  We will buy what we like and won't buy what we dislike.  So if a VG company takes fan input into account when shaping DLC, ppl will buy it.  If not people won't.  How isn't that a constant case of the fans changing the artist's work?  Yet, BW has asked for this in the past and in the case of ME3.

Modifié par stcalvin13, 20 avril 2012 - 09:41 .

[Element Zero]

I've never met anyone who wasn't "outraged" by it, with their rage being proportional to their investment in the series.

Modifié par tallrickruush, 20 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[Aweus]

kingscawt wrote...
Excellent post, and I understood what you meant as far as your comparisions to an extent. But I still stand by my opinion that video games are an art not a pack of trading cards, people's visions and minds went into this and telling someone they should alter that piece of art because you don't like it is childish in my mind, I don't understand the mind of one that would think otherwise, but it's all view point I suppose. 

I cant speak for everyone but I was always advocating the "more choices" option. That would be something that would really hurt nobody. Even though I dont like the Starchild I have to admit that retconing him out of existence just becouse fans says so would be... problematic. If they have to stick to their "artistic vision" then fine. But elements of this vision are only rock-solid if they are from some reason needed as future plot devices. For example if Bioware already did some projections of next Mass Effect game and it would be about "reclaiming" the galaxy then in such case element of mass relay destrucion is a necessary plot device that needs to stay even if people (myself included) are not liking it. But anything that is just part of the conclusion of this trilogy should be as much open for customization as possible. I have mass relays example as something that -can- be a potentially necessary plot device. Same as Starchild if they will want to expand on his concept in future games (who was he? who made him? etc.). But another counter-example would be Shepard him/herself. Whether or not he lives or dies, if he gets some blue babies or go sleep with Cortez. It really doesnt matter in the long run becouse ultimately Shep is just one man and his/her role in future Mass Effect game can be summarized in a codex entry and a memorial statue in case of death or NPC cameo in case of survival. Whatever is possible, they should open as much options for us as possible to customize our experience. And by that I dont mean explosions in three different colors. This is not something that could hurt their "artistic integrity".

As far as player choices go, I just found myself a bit "betrayed" by what they did. I remember back in the end of 2011 I had some fun talking with a friend and speculating how ME3 will end. Like, will Reapers be destoyed? Or maybe Shepard will flip and join them? Will my renegade choices bite me in the ass and I will become the tragic hero (died in the end becouse of the weakness)? Or maybe becouse I am a paragon I will become a space "Jesus"? What if I will have to choose between my life or life of my LI? What if I sacrifice all other races and make a deal with Reapers (pure Renegade way)? Options, options, options. Tons of them. I was so excited with this prospect. Instead we got what? Yeah...

I think that they can still do something with this Extended Cut. Keep that Starkid, keep the synthesis/control/destroy choices. That is their "artistic vision". OK. Let it stand. But they could also dig deeper and actually make those options differ beyond the way of speculation. I control the Reapers? What does that mean? Who am I now? What shall I do? Synthesis? Again, what does that mean? Joker has glowing eyes? Something beyond that? I am alive in the rubbles of something? Now what? What happens next? Where is the epilogue? This is all that falls into category of expansion. They also promised clarification which, again, will not hurt their "artistic vision". Why is Joker running away? Why dialogue between Shep and Starkid is so shallow? And just in generall... what in the bloody hell is going on during those last 5 minutes of the game?

[SeanBahamut]

DangerSandler wrote...

I'm not outraged at all. I'm just really upset to be honest.

This.

I had it on PC, my housemate on his 360. Both of us were just stunned at how poorly it ended.

[Psythorn]

OP:
Regarding your question:
I did not rage. The ending was a let down and it eraesed any desire to start another playthrough of the series - something I was actually looking forward to do - well until the ME3 end happened. So I'm dissappointed and somewhat sad that a great story and series had to end this bad.

I won't go too much into the details as this has been posted again and again but my reasons are:
- Plotholes
- not bittersweet just bitter
- felt like it was forced on me
- no closure
- at least 2 more possible outcomes (reapers win, happier ending (and just because I can't resist to say it: blue babies))

Regarding some of your points:
There are much more people complaining than just 12. And I NEVER saw myself as a follower to one of those. I just took the banner to my signature because it's an easy way to make a statement. I'm quite sure that the same is true for many others. So I feel a little insulted as I feel like you try to make me a follower (with sheepish not beeing sayed openly but lurking between the lines).
And isn't the reason why more people are posting only here obvious ? This is a good working forum I'm already registered to - this is where I see a slight chance that BW is actually reading some posts - why should I bother to go to other forums ?


And just because the "art" excuse is used again and again:
Yes it's art. But BW does not make games just because of their heartfelt love for art. They do it because they want to sell their games. So where exactly is it childish to openly tell them: I did not like it - if you continue to do these things I do not like I will not buy them anymore ? Art needs audience. Products need consumers. It's as simple as that. Trying to make people who complain sound childish -> cheap trick.
They wanted to sell DLC - so I keep saying: I won't buy it until the ending is changed in a way so I WANT to continue to play. They want to do ME4 and I say: Fine - but I will most probably not buy it because the ME3 ending was so bad - I just do not want to play ME any more.
Other examples might be: If a series of books was finished that way - I would not buy a prequel or sequel.
So what's chilidish with that ?
Something I liked changed in a way I do not like it any more - my options are:
- Shutup and turn to something else
- Complain in the hope that it is fixed
Why is it childish to choose the later option - because I do somewhat care ?

Think of this: If there would not have been an outcry for Dragon Age 2 floorplan re-usal ("oh that cave again. Just now I'm going in here and ... ah yes - now this door is blocked.") - they would have done this again - maybe we would have seen this happening in ME3 !
This was something a little more development time would have been able to fix - I do not think we are talking about years of development time - maybe just a few weeks or months - but no the franchise had to be milked NOW.
So was it childish to complain ? I don't think so - it prevented that the same mistake will be made again (hopefully).

Modifié par Psythorn, 20 avril 2012 - 10:01 .

[paul165]

I had a friend ring me up at midnight to rage about it so yeah people really are upset. The problem I have is the more you think about it the worse it gets.

I guess Bioware was kind of right I didn't think about it right I should have just recited the MST3K Mantra and taken it as a life lesson not to pre order games.

[Nimrodell]

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

You're right and wrong in the same time. It's very simple - if you keep your doll's look and actually have other sources of income or you're ok to live as a poor man, but man with dignity that defends his art, vision, belief, then it's ok - if you just used craft to make your artistic vision material - by no means that doll should be changed, it's your art, your own idea stands behind it and no money will change that. But, if you actually crafted that doll to earn money, put food on the table and pay bills, then either you will change it according to demands of market or you're lousy and bad businessman - and art has nothing to do with it. The best combo is when artistic vision and demands of market are the same ones, then you have wonders like Andy Warhol or older Pablo Picasso or Dali... but those people are rather exceptions than actual rule when it comes to art, true one. It used to be called craft, now they call it commercial art - but as soon as it got prefix commercial it lost its independency.

Edit: type error.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 20 avril 2012 - 10:00 .

[daecath]

kingscawt wrote...

daecath wrote...

Here's my response to "It's just a game".

For me, it wasn't "just a game". It was something I invested a part of myself in. Like any good actor taking on a role, I put much of myself into the character. I became invested in the other characters, the relationships, and the story. The absolutely asinine, illiterate, and ridiculous way that they chose to end the game felt like a betrayal. It was a betrayal of the story, a betrayal of the fans, and a betrayal of themselves.

And I became depressed after seeing the endings. I cried when they announced that they weren't actually going to do anything to fix them except make them longer. I am pissed that they could turn their backs on all the quality work they've done. I wish that I could make them understand.

So yeah, maybe when push comes to shove, "it's just a game". But you see, the thing is, everyone has a "just a". It's just a car. It's just a sport team. It's just a painting. It's just a book. It's just a hunk of shaped plastic. It's just a piece of metal with a picture pressed into it. It's just a little piece of paper with a picture printed on it and some glue on the back. Everyone has that one thing that they're passionate about, that one thing that most of the rest of the world would look at and say "but it's just a". This is mine. And I hope nobody destroys yours the way BioWare has destroyed this, and that no one insults you for getting upset if someone does.

But you see, my passion is video gaming, I've always loved the Mass Effect series and was heavily, very heavily invested in the story and progression as a whole which you would have saw in my original post, I understand how you feel I feel just as dissapointed but seemingly to a lesser extent, or less poetic extent at least. I certainly didn't cry or become depressed in the common layman's terms  but I was still very much effected by it. I wasn't trying to insult anyone, I was trying to get an honest opinion instead of copy and paste opinions. Even though it is my passion, I hate to say it but it is just a game. A lot of games have done this over the years but this is the only one that's really be brought to the lime light and it's caused a flock of sheep to castrate themselves upon the opinions of others. I respect your opinion and admire your dedication to the series but I do not agree with the methods that are being used.

I agree with you there. Frankly I think the cupcake thing was handled poorly at best. I think there's not enough organization, not enough leadership, and too many people saying too many things, which let BioWare slip in between the cracks with their Extended Cut that will solve everything by "clarifying and providing closure". I wish there was a single message that everyone could get behind.

You have the pro-enders. They already have what they want.

You have the "clarity and closure" crowd. The ones that just want the ending to provide some more details and fill in the plot holes.

Then you have the rest of us. The ones that see the fundamental flaws in the ending, and want it changed. The ones that see how it violated the rules of writing good literature. How it changed the entire plot at the last moment. How every plot hole and confusion comes from the fact that it didn't stay true to the story it set up, or the rules of the universe it was in. For us, the only fix is to remove or invalidate the starchild completely.

Since fixing what is broken with the endings will automatically provide clarity and closure, that's the goal everyone who is unhappy with the current ending should be working towards. It's nice that BioWare is throwing a bone for the 2nd group, but there are still many of us who aren't going to be satisfied, and it'd be nice if we had the support of the "c&c" group.

As for tactics, I think what we need now is simply to have that unified message,

Of course, at this point I think it's pretty much too late. But I'll keep trying on the remote chance that BioWare is actually listening, and does care enough about their fans and their work to want better for both.

[Klijpope]

Just because artists have changed their art based on feedback does not mean artists always should, or are obliged to every time someone doesn't like something. Yes, BioWare listen to feedback and use it to shape their creations. This is a lot different than totally changing the direction of their work because some fans are demanding it. That is a very different proposition.

What annoys me somewhat is that BioWare have listened to fans and incorporated their feedback in the past, and now they are being beaten over the head with that.

Because they have called their projects collaborations with the fans, 'some' fans now feel 'entitled' (yes, I did use that word) to dictate to BioWare how their game should finish.

So why should any developer ever listen to feedback again, if all it means is that a vocal subsection of the fanbase then claim ownership over someone else's creations? It is really not worth the bother.

It's really sad that BioWare is now being punished for being the developer that listens to its fanbase more than any other. Is that the message the fans really want going out to all the other developers out there?

[Gwtheyrn]

Hi, OP, I'm Gwtheyrn. Now that we've met, you've met someone outraged by the ending (not plural, there was only one in three shades).

[Psythorn]

Klijpope wrote...

Just because artists have changed their art based on feedback does not mean artists always should, or are obliged to every time someone doesn't like something. Yes, BioWare listen to feedback and use it to shape their creations. This is a lot different than totally changing the direction of their work because some fans are demanding it. That is a very different proposition.

What annoys me somewhat is that BioWare have listened to fans and incorporated their feedback in the past, and now they are being beaten over the head with that.

Because they have called their projects collaborations with the fans, 'some' fans now feel 'entitled' (yes, I did use that word) to dictate to BioWare how their game should finish.

So why should any developer ever listen to feedback again, if all it means is that a vocal subsection of the fanbase then claim ownership over someone else's creations? It is really not worth the bother.

It's really sad that BioWare is now being punished for being the developer that listens to its fanbase more than any other. Is that the message the fans really want going out to all the other developers out there?

I'l keep it short and simple:
BW want's to sell games and DLC to me as an audience to their art and a consumer of their product.
I do not even consider myself a fan or entitelt. Just the two things stated above.
As a consumer and audience I did not like what they've done. I do not like it that much that I 'm hesistant to buy other BW games when they are released but I will wait for other consumers feedback before I might buy. I do not like it that much that I can't imagine why I should buy DLC.
I've two options: I can try to make my voice heard so they might "fix" it for me - and if there are more people like me there is hope. I can decide that I do not care enough to do the first and turn to something else.

I can't see anything entitled, childish or whining all this - that is PR deflection tactics to prevent possible buyers which are still undecided from taking me serious - and nothing else.

It's their choice to keep their ending - I'm even trying NOT to tell them how to fix it because that's not my job - THEY are supposed to be the story tellers. I can just tell them what I did not like in a kind way.
But it's my damn right to not like it and tell them. And they know that people do not tend to buy stuff they do not like - I think that's just plain obvious.

Modifié par Psythorn, 20 avril 2012 - 10:18 .