257 réponses à ce sujet

[daecath]

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

Nor would we ask you to. But let's say that you were making a movie. Actually, let's say you were making two movies at the same time. Now let's say that in the editing room, you got mixed up, and accidentally swapped endings, so that the ending of your romantic comedy has New York City being blown up by aliens, and your sci-fi film ends with a wedding scene between two characters the audeince has never met. Somehow, it gets past everyone, and into the theatres. You can bet that people would demand that you fix it.

Now let's say that you decided to do the same thing on purpose. You're still going to have people demanding you fix it. That's what BioWare has done. They've replaced the ending of their game with the ending of some totally unrelated game.

Art is not this divine edict handed down in stone tablets from God. Art is changed all the time. It's a process. You refine your art. Someone tells you that the eyes in your drawing are too close together, you fix it. Someone tells you that a word is misspelled in your book, you fix it. Someone tells you that it might work better this way instead of that, you look at that and decide whether you like the idea or not.

I don't think BioWare should be "forced" to do anything. They have the right not to change their work. I have the right not to buy from them. It's as simple as that. But I do think that it should be pointed out to them exactly where they went wrong. I think we should tell them how their artistic vision violates every literary rule there is. We should hold them to a higher standard because up until now, they've at least met that standard if not blown it completely away. We know what they're capable of, all we want is for them to produce something that's the quality that we've come to expect. Frankly, as both an audience and a consumer, I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Aweus]

Let me give you a fast example of how they could change endings without changing them. Or to sound less dumb, create new possibilities only with expanding. Lets say we go with the Control ending. OK. Now the system checks our decissions from previous games. Was our Shep a hardcore renegade? Fine, well, he just came to conclusion that Starchild is right. Preservation of organic life is the highest stake and it shall be reached with all possible means. Shep proceeds to execute the old plan and finishes his reaping. He spares however the stranded Normandy planet (obvious attachment) which later becomes a colony with a Stargazer. Who knows? Maybe Reaper-Shep will return in another 50k years to harvest again? Or perhaps Shepard was a Paragon? He decides that galaxy needs to be free  from the threat of the Reapers. You can now choose to order Reapers to self-destruct in some fashion. Or if you have compassion to all the cycles that Reapers "preserved" you may decide to leave into the Dark Space and fly away into some galaxy far far away. As far away as possible to allow our galaxy to live on its own. In all this you could also insert other things. Like if you saved the Collector base, Alliance will have a technology through which AI-Shepard will be able to communicate with Hacket for the one final time. If I saved the Geth and ended up as Paragon, Geth will decide to leave the galaxy together with me to seek their own fortune in the stars and let organics have a clean shot for their future. Lots of IFs, ELSEIFs etc.

I did this totally on the fly in 5 minutes just typing from my head so its quite lame. But I did not retconned anything that is in game already. It contradicts none of their "artistic vision". It is all 100% expansion and clarification but it changes a lot in what we know about the story and gives you more options even though the core endings remain same. What I typed probably sucks badly from lack of polish but it just shows in what way I thought the ending development would go. You could put much more time and work into it to make several nice paths and choices. If I would be Mr. Casey Hudson I would have my office wall all plastered with notecards, pins and color threads. With several permutations of how this story ends. Multiple branches influenced by our choices made during the ending and in the past. And please dont tell me it would be hard to code. It would be not. Just some more lines of dialogue, some more scenes. There would be nothing hard to make this work if they would actually decide to take this route.

Modifié par Aweus, 20 avril 2012 - 10:20 .

[Nassegris]

I think I’ve always been more unhappy and disappointed than angry. I’m not a very… raging and ranting kind of person.

Interestingly, my friends IRL are a varied bunch of incredulous, furious, upset or just disgusted. Some aren’t very invested in the game and find it hilarious – not the reactions, but the actual ending. That said, to the last member of my crowd, they all find it a very, very poor ending though their reactions to that are very varied.

[stcalvin13]

Klijpope wrote...

Just because artists have changed their art based on feedback does not mean artists always should, or are obliged to every time someone doesn't like something. Yes, BioWare listen to feedback and use it to shape their creations. This is a lot different than totally changing the direction of their work because some fans are demanding it. That is a very different proposition.

What annoys me somewhat is that BioWare have listened to fans and incorporated their feedback in the past, and now they are being beaten over the head with that.

Because they have called their projects collaborations with the fans, 'some' fans now feel 'entitled' (yes, I did use that word) to dictate to BioWare how their game should finish.

So why should any developer ever listen to feedback again, if all it means is that a vocal subsection of the fanbase then claim ownership over someone else's creations? It is really not worth the bother.

It's really sad that BioWare is now being punished for being the developer that listens to its fanbase more than any other. Is that the message the fans really want going out to all the other developers out there?

I'll repeat my points.

First.  We have decent reason to think this ISN'T the team's vision to begin with.  (Pardon the over emphasis, but I yet yet to see a you-can't-change-arter address this)

Second.  You can add to the game (e.g. a "screw you starchild option) without taking anything back.

Third. Artists can drastically reinterpret their work (or the end or their work).  They can do so for monetary reasons if it pleases them.  We're giving them some monetary reasons.

[DocStone]

I have two forums that I use regularly, one is a gaming clan forum, the other a football forum.

Not one person on either site has liked the endings, a few were "WTF? I won't be playing that again" while the rest were genuinely angry at the endings, and for having the story spoiled. Every single one has asked the question "Why?" and so far I really don't think we have been given a proper answer.

Take from that what you will.

[CDHarrisUSF]

kingscawt wrote...

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

I think, in this metaphor, the paying customers aren't so much complaining about your choice of hair color... but rather how terribly painted it is and the fact that it is just a stick figure (despite your statements to the contrary while trying to get people to buy it sight unseen)... and that this is damaging your reputation as an artist, in the eyes of your audience of potential customers.

Shifting the metaphor to a diffent medium: Sure, you're free to get defensive of your artistic genius, like Shyamalan, but your audience is also free to call you out for making a s#!tty movie. You can only make a career out of it if enough people think your movies/paintings/games are worth their money. You are free to ignore all constructive criticism... just don't be surprised when you run your career into the ground by alienating your fans. After all, you aren't "entitled" to their money.

[Joeybsmooth4]

kingscawt wrote...

stcalvin13 wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Demanding a writer to change his ending because you didn't like it IS childish and there's really no other way a rational adult would look at it.

Obviously there are other ways for rational adults to look at it.  After all, last I checked rational didn't equal agrees with kingscawt.   

And really, why is it so childish?  We have money to spend and other places to spend it.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what the conditions of our spending money on their products are?  

We have opinions about the game and places to express them.  Is there any reason we can't tell BW what we thought of the ending and what would make the game better?

Really what about this is so childish?

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

I write music, and say I was going to sell  one of my songs, well the sheet music to said song.  I told them at the end it was going to be 16  different solos, each solo was made for different instruments . The people playing the music get to the end were there should be 16 solo parts and come to find out that it just had 3 different banjo parts . When the Banjo is no were else in the work.

As a writer I would have failed, not because the work stinks , but because I lied to the people paying it .

[Joccaren]

Originally? Yes.
Now? Not so much. I honestly DGAF about Bioware or ME anymore. Hell, I'm only on these forums ATM so I don't have to do work. ME3 had the chance to push the ME series into the top series of all time for me, but now I'm almost thinking of trying to return my digital copy. I'm not going to play it again. Maybe once when the EC comes out, but I've got BF3 and SC2 to play, and MC and the Witcher, and if there isn't anything in ME for me anymore - I might as well get some money back if I can. Don't know if I can be bothered, but we'll see.

[Joccaren]

kingscawt wrote...


Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.

Keep in mind we're looking at this from a consumer point of view.
If a restaraunt served food that wasn't to your tastes, would you go back?
This is what we are doing. Bioware has made something we don't like, and we are telling them that unless they change that, we're not buying from them again.
What the whole "You can't demand they change it" crowd is almost implying is that we MUST return to that restaraunt and buy the food that we don't like, otherwise we're forcing them to change their artistic cooking style, and that is childish.
We have no reason to buy Bioware products if they don't make products that we like. There is nothing childish about that.

[AttaBoyTroy]

Anger is amplified a lot on the internet, particularly on forums. You're also going to notice the "blood rage" posters more and the regular folks are less obvious.

I think I'm safe in saying that a lot of the people here are disappointed and hoping for a better ending. The RAAAAGE just sticks with you though.

[Subguy614]

I had never been on a forum in my life. ME3's ending was so bad and ruined the entire series for me by taking away any point of replaying ( well except the combat), that I joined BSN to see what I did wrong or what BW was going to do.

Basically, I've replaced replaying ME 1,2,&3 with BSN forum lurking. Believe me, I'd much rather be replaying the victorious over the reapers final battle or the we screwed up reapers win battle that didn't happen.

[Ieldra]

Aweus wrote...
Let me give you a fast example of how they could change endings without changing them. Or to sound less dumb, create new possibilities only with expanding. Lets say we go with the Control ending. OK. Now the system checks our decissions from previous games. Was our Shep a hardcore renegade? Fine, well, he just came to conclusion that Starchild is right. Preservation of organic life is the highest stake and it shall be reached with all possible means. Shep proceeds to execute the old plan and finishes his reaping. He spares however the stranded Normandy planet (obvious attachment) which later becomes a colony with a Stargazer. Who knows? Maybe Reaper-Shep will return in another 50k years to harvest again? Or perhaps Shepard was a Paragon? He decides that galaxy needs to be free  from the threat of the Reapers. You can now choose to order Reapers to self-destruct in some fashion. Or if you have compassion to all the cycles that Reapers "preserved" you may decide to leave into the Dark Space and fly away into some galaxy far far away. As far away as possible to allow our galaxy to live on its own. In all this you could also insert other things. Like if you saved the Collector base, Alliance will have a technology through which AI-Shepard will be able to communicate with Hacket for the one final time. If I saved the Geth and ended up as Paragon, Geth will decide to leave the galaxy together with me to seek their own fortune in the stars and let organics have a clean shot for their future. Lots of IFs, ELSEIFs etc.

I did this totally on the fly in 5 minutes just typing from my head so its quite lame. But I did not retconned anything that is in game already. It contradicts none of their "artistic vision". It is all 100% expansion and clarification but it changes a lot in what we know about the story and gives you more options even though the core endings remain same. What I typed probably sucks badly from lack of polish but it just shows in what way I thought the ending development would go. You could put much more time and work into it to make several nice paths and choices. If I would be Mr. Casey Hudson I would have my office wall all plastered with notecards, pins and color threads. With several permutations of how this story ends. Multiple branches influenced by our choices made during the ending and in the past. And please dont tell me it would be hard to code. It would be not. Just some more lines of dialogue, some more scenes. There would be nothing hard to make this work if they would actually decide to take this route.

QFT. There's a lot they can do with expansion and clarification.

And to the OP: yes, I was absolutely *crushed* by the ending. It was an emotional punch-in-the-gut no game has ever delivered to me in more than 25 years of playing video games. If I had not subsequently written a lot of headcanon to mitigate the pain, and read some less depressing fanfic, I probably wouldn't be here (on BSN) any more. ME3's ending is of the kind that ruins dreams, as the review linked in this thread puts it so aptly. 

[Klijpope]

Psythorn wrote...
It's their choice to keep their ending - I'm even trying NOT to tell them how to fix it because that's not my job - THEY are supposed to be the story tellers. I can just tell them what I did not like in a kind way.
But it's my damn right to not like it and tell them. And they know that people do not tend to buy stuff they do not like - I think that's just plain obvious.

Well then my post, and the OP, for that matter, are not directed at you. I know many people are just critical, and that's obviously totally justified. Many folk don't like anything about the ending, and are perfectly correct to express this, and let BW know their feelings and their concerns. It is also totally fine to avoid future BW products and withhold from buying DLC. That is not entitlement, and I never said it was.

But, there is a subsection of BW fandom that are claiming 'ownership' over someone else's product, using the fact that BW have listened to fan feedback in the past as justification for trying to bully BW into changing the ending to suit their own tastes. This is happening all over this site, and it is impossible to deny it is happening. To claim the right to dictate to BW what their ending should be because BW have in the past listened to fan feedback is the very definition of entitlement. This is what I find annoying.

stcalvin13 wrote...
First.  We have decent reason to think this ISN'T the team's vision to begin with.  (Pardon the over emphasis, but I yet yet to see a you-can't-change-arter address this)

Second.  You can add to the game (e.g. a "screw you starchild option) without taking anything back.

Third. Artists can drastically reinterpret their work (or the end or their work).  They can do so for monetary reasons if it pleases them.  We're giving them some monetary reasons.

They can. But what if they don't want to? And you're not really giving them monetary reasons, beyond threats not to buy future products. Any ending DLC would have to be free or else the outrage would be doubled.

Can't address the first point, as this is no more than supposition. As for the second point - changing the ending drastically (ie: removing the Catalyst and the final choices), would/could disrupt the whole game. 

'You-can't-change-art' is a misreading of the artistic integrity argument. The artist can change the work, if it suits their creative vision. What is being demanded here is that BW ditch their own vision and use the vision(s) of the fans. And most of these suggestions I have seen are awful, and would Bowdlerise the whole franchise.

[LadyWench]

For me, my initial reaction was surprise. I think the abrupt and seemingly out-of-place ending was a bit of a shock to me, lol. Then the more I thought it about, the more it felt like, "Wait, and that wasn't right, and THAT was bogus, too! What the hell?" I did do a playthrough again to see if it was me that missed something, but the more I thought about it, the more flaws I saw, the more I went back and reviewed the pre-release promises and the more disappointed I felt.

And then I talked with people IRL. I know one friend who was fine with it, but he's an FPS/action movie kind of guy who goes through games like water.

My other friends are a little more like me. I play for story, so I can only stay interested if it's a good immersive game and then I tend to get pretty invested in my character. They, like me, were really disappointed and thought BW dropped the ball badly on the wrap-up. Actually, one friend was WAY madder than me, she was super p***ed (but then, she romanced Thane, soooo...). For me it was less bloodrage and more like a pit in my stomach that made me sad, lol. I also went to the forums to see if this feeling was more universal, and it was.

I don't think it's all sound and fury, signifying nothing. Quite the opposite. I think some people have spent a lot of time and money on BW and feel legitimately lied, cheated, used, and unappreciated. The fact that this debate is still raging over a month after release and the price of the game has already dropped is a testament to that. But I appreciate that you wanted some dialogue about it. BW seems to be avoiding this discussion...

Modifié par LadyWench, 20 avril 2012 - 11:38 .

[Podge 90]

OP, forgive me for appearing like I've been trawling through you're posts, but I can't quite grasp the intention of this.

You say you dislike the ending.  You say you don't understand the dissatisfaction of a lot of gamers about the ending.  You contradict yourself.  "You don't like it?  I don't like it either - but I don't know why you don't like it so much".

You express disagreement with the way in which a lot of people have showed their discontent - Retake, Childs Play etc - but from the sounds of things you seem perfectly happy to mumble you're discontent, then let the issue lie and forget about it without doing a thing.  Basically, EA loves you as a customer, while those kicking up a fuss are the ones who allow you to have a better Mass Effect game, and better games in future.  But again, you don't understand why some people are "outraged" so that might be a lost point.  And anyway, you disregard those who feel they and Mass Effect deserve better as "childish", so I don't expect you to agree with me on that point.

You bring up the good old "artistic" arguement.  Do you think Mass Effect exists for its own sake?  Or do you think it exists because it was a commercial success and made money?  These 'artists' at Bioware are employees - they make a product that will please people, these pleased people then buy the product, and these pleased people will then buy further products.  Don't mistake 'making money' as NOT being the foremost reason for putting a game, in fact any product, into prodcution. 

kingscawt wrote... 
It still seems a little misunderstood that I support BW deciding they're going to explain the endings, I'm saying I do not support people actively protesting they change thier vision because they don't like it. I don't like the endings, but I respect the people who made them enough to not do that...

 
You do appreciate that Bioware was forced to change their "vision" because of deadlines, targets and leaks?  You do appreciate the reasons for the Indoctrination Interpretation having such solid foundations was because it may very well have been the initial "vision"?  You do appreciate how the Indoctrination Interpretation has now been discounted, despite all things being in place, because that "vision" had to be changed? You do appreciate how we got an ending that introduced completely new elements into a richly detailed, huge, vast, expansive fictional universe that turned this defined world on it's head in the time it takes for a hologram to say a few lines?  And you say it is the "childish" people wanting a new ending who are the ones that are out of line?

stcalvin13 wrote... 
Artists can drastically reinterpret their work (or the end or their work).  They can do so for monetary reasons if it pleases them.  We're giving them some monetary reasons.

 

 

kingscawt wrote...  
The all mighty dollar does indeed make the world go around and feed the families of those who create the art but isn't cartering to the money what Retake is in itself trying to stop? But in turn is causing? 

The money is coming from two completely different sources.  Lets go to extremes:
EA - 'we want to make as much money as possible by hitting as wide an audience as possible, we want anyone to be able to jump in at the end of a trilogy and be able to not feel left out, we want it released in 6 months - no make that 5 months - in fact make it 3 months til release.'

Mass Effect fans - 'we want closure to the investment of hundreds of hours worth of time and money, we want a climatic conclusion to our favourite game frachise, we want to end the journey we've been on with Bioware, with Shepard, with Garrus, Wrex, Liara, Space Hamster, feeling satisfied that this game recieved the attention and dedication it deserved.'

To me, it is blatantly apparent to whom Bioware was being led with Mass Effect 3.

Like I said at the start, you claim you are unhappy about the ending, but suggest you are happy with not doing a damn thing about it?  I assume you are unhappy with it because, like many, you have invested a lot of time and money into Mass Effect.  We should be singing from the same hymn sheet, but you demean those who wanted to make a difference (who HAVE made a difference with the Extended Cut) as "childish"?  This "outrage" you are blind to has obviously had an effect, or do you think it was Bioware's initial "vision" to release a game, and then release DLC to "clarify" the game they have released?

Surely the response to this very thread disproves what you initially said, or set out to prove. There is intense disappointment, even outrage, but there is also a strong consensus that Bioware should do something, and that they can do something if they actually really wanted to.

But, obviously, I don't want to come across as "childish" so I'll just forget about the greatest story I've ever experienced and settle for something that doesn't even reach the starry heights of mediocrity.

[Esoretal]

Many of us are containing depression and seething anger, but mostly depression at this point. I know that during the few days after I finished the game I ranted to several people about it.

Now when people bring it up, I just shake my head.

[Alamar2078]

It's not the endings in and of themselves that I don't like [although I personally think they are objectively bad .. YMMV.

I don't like the "Fact" that BW deliberately misled fans about the game and are continueing to do exactly that. In a recent ad BW is claiming 75 perfect scores and the fan reaction has been the greatest in the history of video games. None of this is a lie per-se. BW does fail to mention the reaction is negative therefore giving the impression that it's a "positive reaction" to the endings.

Honestly the only thing I don't understand is why more people aren't actually more upset than they are.

[calvinocious]

I don't know if I'd use the word outraged, but I unabashedly hate the ending and I have said so even in multiplayer lobby chat.

[EagleScoutDJB]

I was angry when I first finished the game, I mean really angry I hardly slept the night I finished it. I didn't just not play Mass Effect for a while I didn't play anything for over a week, normally all the time other people spend watching TV I spend playing games. After a while I got over it, I still hated the ending but it was more disappointment that Bioware would end one of the best stories I've ever seen like that. Now with the way Bioware has talked down to us and acted like there's nothing wrong with the ending but they will do the EC as a favor to those of us who don't understand there artistic vision I'm angry again. Don't misunderstand me I will get the EC and will probably play all of the DLC, I love the Mass Effect universe to much not to, but at this point it really doesn't matter how good the EC is ME3 will probably be my last Bioware game.

[TheHugoGamer]

Did I hate it as much as these forums hint at? Yes. Did I go to personal attacks on the Bioware staff? No. Did I make my opinion clear? Yes. And I hate the ending, not the rest of the game. I only protest because IMO Mass Effect is one of the greatest entertainment products out there, and I won't let the ending ruin that.

[circe]

I was massively disappointed by the ending. I do feel like I was cheated, and damn it all, I really did believe that pre-release hype about significantly different endings, shame on me. So I came onto these forums, which I never did before (been a Bioware fan since Baldur's Gate), donated to Child's Play, and essentially raged to anyone IRL who would listen. I'm actually surprised by how upset I am about all this and by how I really have little to no desire to play ME3 again. I'm more the calm, easy going type that rolls with the punches. I guess I'm more invested in the series than I anticipated.

As for all the rage on the forums, I'm sure a part of it is people venting and people trolling, but I think a lot of people are genuinely upset not only by the endings, but by how Bioware handled this. I think people were hoping for a more frank discussion with Bioware about the ending, rather than the deflections, vague public statements, and perfect scores and artistic integrity defense. I know I personally would have liked not an admission of guilt, but for someone to explain to me why they chose the direction they did. I want to understand that thought process. Instead what I'm hearing is "Well, other people liked it" or "I'm the writer, this is what I wanted, so deal with it".

And why are people still here? Some people enjoy the drama. Other people want to keep venting. Others want to point out that while the EC was announced, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be good, if the pre-release statements and subsequent product is any example to go by. But I think a lot of us, despite the rage, all secretly hope that Bioware is going to somehow miraculously fix all this so we can go back to being adoring fans.

But of course, this is all just speculation.
(Sorry for the wall of text, it got away from me and I couldn't stop)

[zarnk567]

I just hate the ending cause it it goes against literary writing conventions, so it just makes me mad. I'm not outraged just "annoyed" is the best way to describe it.

[Melicamp]

"Outrage" is a moniker the media slapped on the fan reaction, along with whiny and entitled. The simple fact of the matter is that the fans are clearly upset in large numbers, and they want the ending they were promised. Using the term "outrage", a term that implicitly suggests a reaction based on moral grounds, is an attempt to tar Retakers and Anti-enders with a sense of moral indignation they neither fell, nor have expressed. All they want is the game they thought they were paying for.

[OriginalNameGuy]

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

No, I don't like the endings in their current state, but with extended cut coming I do not have a reason to rage.

[Avalon Aurora]

I'm quite upset, but that doesn't mean I'm going to freak out or something or act weird in person, I have a little thing called self-control and realizing it is a game. I'm more upset because of the degradation of quality compared to what I expected and was led to expect than the fact that a game had a bad ending. There are plenty of crappy games out there, Mass Effect series however was a cut above, and was part of what was starting to bring some video games to a level worthy of being called 'art'. Unfortunately, the ending currently has the entire series degraded in quality.

I want it fixed because a quality ending is what I expected when I paid for the game, and I know Bioware has the skills to pull one off.