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I've never encountered someone "outraged" by the endings legitimately.


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#176
Nassegris

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kingscawt wrote...

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.


From an artist’s perspective?

Such an odd thing to hear. There are different kinds of artists. There’s the ‘artsy’ artist that claims not to do it for the money. They tend to thumb their noses at critiques, because only they know their art best – no one else has a say. They’re not going to ‘sell out’.

Which leads us to commercial artists. They do art for money. They are often very open to criticism because they depend on their work appealing to the masses for their livelihood. They don’t just go through peer reviews, but often work according to someone else’s vision, or they adapt their vision to time constraints and monetary concerns. They take orders from higher-ups or from their clients. A commercial artist is the artist that spends a few days working around the clock to chase a deadline, and when that deadline hits – has to stop working because it’s part of what they do. Their work is fluid. If they show their art to their client and something isn’t right, they tend to alter details to accommodate what’s expected. Some people say it’s not even art to be a commercial artist – but that’s not right. It’s just that it’s art, not for art’s sake, but also for money.

As a commercial artist you WOULD have to change the colour if you’d promised a different one – or if your boss demanded it, or if it was a huge flop and the change was easy and quick enough to salvage circumstances.

How can someone claim that Bioware isn’t commercial art? And if it’s not commercial art – how can it possibly be that their work does, indeed, go through all the normal commercial pipelines? The peer reviews, the shortcuts, the deadlines, the DLC. It is all about money, and the finished art is a product, not just a painting on a canvas. They will alter, patch, add on, change, change, change, if there’s money in it.

We have the right to complain. They also have the right to tell us to shove it, but if that’s the case, the commercial art has lost our custom. They don’t have the same liberties that the artsy artist does. Come on, it’s very strange for them to claim the ‘art’ defence while at the same time, producing things like Tali’s portrait and day 1 DLC. It just doesn’t fly. They don’t need to change anything because it’s their right not to, but don’t say that it’s childish or wrong for people to try to ask for what they were promised. They change things constantly about their own products, adding DLC and fixing gameplay, all for money. This is no different. It’s how commercial art works.

If they want to claim the art defence, they need to stop caring so much about money. If they want to care about money, they need to drop the art defence.

And especially, people need to drop using the art defence for their sake. All it does is show a lacking insight into the business.

Modifié par Nassegris, 20 avril 2012 - 12:49 .


#177
Psythorn

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I agree with the previous poster...
And just because the "ART" argument is used repeatedly so will be also repeating my answer:

Yes it's art. But BW does not make games just because of their heartfelt love for art. They do it because they want to sell their games. So why exactly is it childish to openly tell them: I did not like it - if you continue to do things I do not like I will not buy them anymore ? Art needs audience. Products need consumers. It's as simple as that. Trying to make people who complain sound childish -> cheap trick.
They wanted to sell DLC - so I keep saying: I won't buy it until the ending is changed in a way so I WANT to continue to play. They want to do ME4 and I say: Fine - but I will most probably not buy it because the ME3 ending was so bad - I just do not want to play ME any more.
Other examples might be: If a series of books was finished that way - I would not buy a prequel or sequel.
So what's chilidish with that ?
Something I liked changed in a way I do not like it any more - my options are:
- Shutup and turn to something else
- Complain in the hope that it is fixed
Why is it childish to choose the later option - because I do somewhat care ?

Think of this: If there would not have been an outcry for Dragon Age 2 floorplan re-usal ("oh that cave again. Just now I'm going in here and ... ah yes - now this door is blocked.") - they would have done this again - maybe we would have seen this happening in ME3 !
This was something a little more development time would have been able to fix - I do not think we are talking about years of development time - maybe just a few weeks or months - but no they did not take the time to do it - the franchise had to be milked NOW.
So was it childish to complain ? I don't think so - it prevented that the same mistake will be made again (hopefully).

Modifié par Psythorn, 20 avril 2012 - 12:54 .


#178
Novate

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You have to understand that Many Played ME1 and ME2 multiple times just so that they have multiple saves with different choices made for each game in preparation for ME3 the supposed Epic End for your Shepard.
When the end results are always the same 3 choices with no cinematic differences, people gets angry really angry.

Usually I would just let the game slide, Deus Ex : HR, I have no problems with the three endings, because I was not invested like I am with Mass Effect. I have never played Deus Ex the first game, therefore I took the game as is and enjoy it.

Mass Effect 3 was suppose to provide closure, provide answers, give my Comrads a proper end. Instead they were forgotten at the final end cinematic. I am actually more Disappointed then Mad, I just couldn't believe that Bioware , a once great RPG company actually created and is proud of what they did.

I am not an Professor of literature, nor a game developer, yet I can finish ME3 and realize that something is amiss.
I just don't understand how anyone with gaming knowledge and small amount of lore of Mass Effect would get the endings they gotten and didn't find that something is terribly wrong. Especially for a game that spam 3 titles.

All of this negativity only promotes its cosumers to not buy any products immediately its made, it promotes everyone to wait for reviews, game play videos, and demos. Personally thats one of the major changes I am doing, I will no longer trust a Company based on their abilities to create, I will based it on actual enjoyment in the future. Unfortunately that only means, Bioware will lose its Blockbuster appeal, and will only see a steady sale numbers if the game actually lives up to the promises. Losing its AAA hype appeal.

Modifié par Novate, 20 avril 2012 - 12:59 .


#179
Klijpope

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I'll let you into a secret. An artist is not a professional artist unless they make money out of it. That is the very definition of professional.

@Nassegris
"Such an odd thing to hear. There are different kinds of artists. There’s the ‘artsy’ artist that claims not to do it for the money. They tend to thumb their noses at critiques, because only they know their art best – no one else has a say. They’re not going to ‘sell out’. "

These are not professionals - they are by definition amateurs. I know several professional artists, who range from motion graphics in the tv industry, through to performance poets, drawing specialists, painters, video artists, musicians, sound artists, etc, etc. They make art because they like making art, but they could not make it if they were not paid for doing so. That's pretty straightforward.

Your comparison falls down when you compare the ME3 audience/user/player to the people that commissioned the commercial art. They are not equivalent.

If, say, Barclays Bank commissioned a graphic designer to redesign their logo, they could call them up and tell them to change that particular shade of blue to another one, or exchange one font for another, and so on. A Barclays Bank customer could not do that, and they certainly could not demand the right to do so.

In the case of ME3, EA is the commissioner/patron - they get to tell the commercial artist (BW) what they can and cannot do. This fact seems to upset many people on here, yet they are using this justification for their own gripes about the ending

#180
comrade gando

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Never encountered someone outraged about the ending?

You haven't talked to Udina yet have you

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#181
Orumon

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This is an OUTRAGE!

Again.

#182
Drogonion

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I was part of the silent majority. I have a life, but played BW games faithfully, especially ME. The ending to me was an insult - it was thematically broken (reader/writer contract was betrayed). It furthermore tarnished the entire ME trilogy.

So yes, now you've met someone who was outraged at the ending. Just read the forums and so many intelligent and objective reviews to see others outraged similarly.

#183
EagleScoutDJB

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Nassegris wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.


From an artist’s perspective?

Such an odd thing to hear. There are different kinds of artists. There’s the ‘artsy’ artist that claims not to do it for the money. They tend to thumb their noses at critiques, because only they know their art best – no one else has a say. They’re not going to ‘sell out’.

Which leads us to commercial artists. They do art for money. They are often very open to criticism because they depend on their work appealing to the masses for their livelihood. They don’t just go through peer reviews, but often work according to someone else’s vision, or they adapt their vision to time constraints and monetary concerns. They take orders from higher-ups or from their clients. A commercial artist is the artist that spends a few days working around the clock to chase a deadline, and when that deadline hits – has to stop working because it’s part of what they do. Their work is fluid. If they show their art to their client and something isn’t right, they tend to alter details to accommodate what’s expected. Some people say it’s not even art to be a commercial artist – but that’s not right. It’s just that it’s art, not for art’s sake, but also for money.

As a commercial artist you WOULD have to change the colour if you’d promised a different one – or if your boss demanded it, or if it was a huge flop and the change was easy and quick enough to salvage circumstances.

How can someone claim that Bioware isn’t commercial art? And if it’s not commercial art – how can it possibly be that their work does, indeed, go through all the normal commercial pipelines? The peer reviews, the shortcuts, the deadlines, the DLC. It is all about money, and the finished art is a product, not just a painting on a canvas. They will alter, patch, add on, change, change, change, if there’s money in it.

We have the right to complain. They also have the right to tell us to shove it, but if that’s the case, the commercial art has lost our custom. They don’t have the same liberties that the artsy artist does. Come on, it’s very strange for them to claim the ‘art’ defence while at the same time, producing things like Tali’s portrait and day 1 DLC. It just doesn’t fly. They don’t need to change anything because it’s their right not to, but don’t say that it’s childish or wrong for people to try to ask for what they were promised. They change things constantly about their own products, adding DLC and fixing gameplay, all for money. This is no different. It’s how commercial art works.

If they want to claim the art defence, they need to stop caring so much about money. If they want to care about money, they need to drop the art defence.

And especially, people need to drop using the art defence for their sake. All it does is show a lacking insight into the business.


Thank you, this is exactly how I feel.  I've been trying to put it into words that would get my point across, with out sounding like an ass, for over a week.

Modifié par dbollendorf, 20 avril 2012 - 02:26 .


#184
RShara

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kingscawt wrote...

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.


But what if you told everyone your stick figure was going to be a human with brown hair, but instead you painted a stick figure of a duck?

#185
Action Bawstard

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Outage? You mean mob right? Because we can do mob.

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#186
Elite Midget

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Yes. I haven't touched ME3 since I saw the ending. There's no point in playing ME3 or any of the previous entries because in the end it didn't even matter.

#187
PsyrenY

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#188
Nassegris

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dbollendorf wrote...

Nassegris wrote...

kingscawt wrote...

Keep in mind i'm looking at this from an artist's perspective, let's say I painted a stick figure with brown hair, a popular opinion is she'd look better with red hair, I wouldn't go back and change the hair to red because it's a popular opinion that's absolutely insulting to my vision of said art. Demanding someone change thier vision to meet yours is childish.


(cutting my blabber) 


Thank you, this is exactly how I feel.  I've been trying to put it into words that would get my point across, with out sounding like an ass, for over a week.


You’re welcome :)

It just baffles me how the promised huge impact of the Rachni in ME3 can be waved away with time restraints, or whatever it is they’re claiming, but at the same time their artistic vision is so vital that it must be stuck to at all cost.

If that had been true, they would have gone with original ending, regardless of leak, and everything they’d planned and promised would have been in the game, no matter what restraints EA or the public put on them. But obviously that’s not how it works. If the vision had been the most important thing – we would have seen a massive impact from the Rachni, and there would have been a separate quest line if the Rachni had not been saved. That’s what they wanted, why is that not the case if art is the most vital aspect?

Because money is more vital than art in this case.

Modifié par Nassegris, 20 avril 2012 - 02:39 .


#189
tateel99

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I don't know if I meet your definition of outraged. I have been playing since M1 and have raved
to my friends about well written the story lines were compared to what passes for SciFi
movies these days. ME is really very good Space Opera, not Science Fiction, but I still
re-read the Lensman series. In the past I did not post on the forums and only visited if I ran into a problem to see if a solution was posted.

All of that changed when I played through the ME3 ending. I felt the writing and plot were horrible
and completely out of touch with the overall series arc. Since then I have become a daily lurker
on the forums and have posted several times and voted in polls. Just because I find the ending so distasteful. I am one of the ME fans that will never purchase any ME universe material again
unless a more valid ending is provided. I do not want to write an ending for BioWare - that's what we payed them to do. I just want something close to what we were led to expect.

Where that fits in your "did not like ending" grading boxes I don't know.

#190
ArchDuck

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I was highly upset and insulted by the ending.

#191
kegNeggs

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quite similar to you op. still id like a happy ending, its really all im after

#192
FridgeRaider88

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Nobody I personally know who has played through to the end liked it at all, either thematically or in its execution. Myself included.

#193
bmwcrazy

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You can try and analyze it in a civil manner, OP, but ultimately, this is just another thread complaining about other people complaining.

I jumped on the Retake bandwagon because I wished Bioware to fix the ending by providing more clarification and closure, because frankly, it didn't make any sense at all. 

You said "generalizations are the death of intelligent conversations," and you should always keep in mind that not everyone in the anti-ending crowd or the Retake movement wanted Bioware to "alter" their ending.

#194
18 Brains

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Soaringeagle78 wrote...

I sank into a depression for a about a week and-a-half and my grades dropped... still trying to recover those.


Same.  I have to get A's on my finals now to pull an A or B for a lot of my courses.

#195
Rjames112

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iggy4566 wrote...

This an outrage!


You're an outrage!

But seriously, I think the level of hyperbole on the internet has taken over and the issues get rushed along in that current and pushed by media coverage talking about the backlash. There is a backlash but I think it's a matter of whoever shouts the loudest figures they must be the most correct with their complaints.

I can understand being upset by the endings sure, it's natural when you are disappointed by a piece of media (book, TV, movie, video game) you have an emotional investment in (Lost ending, Sopranos ending, Stargate Daniel Jackson dying the first time, BSG last season, etc.) I'm more disappointed than anything else. Kind of a "please be good, please be good, please be good.....awwww." 

#196
EricHVela

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It's easier and safer to rage on a forum than in-person.

#197
Dead_Meat357

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Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Funny. Everyone I know hates the ending.


Everyone I know who has finished the game absolutely hated the ending. I'm vaugely acquainted with a couple people that say the same "I didn't like it but I didn't hate it as much as everyone else seems to." Though these people tend to like artsy stuff so the ending wasn't as much of a punch in the stomach to them.

#198
Zohrdan

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the best put video so far why the ending is broken... and doesn't work

#199
Reign Tsumiraki

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#200
httinks2006

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There is no Artistic integrity without

Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions.

Lies , lead to more lies which beget even more lies to where the lies seem to now be the only truth .

yes we are outraged