178 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

leeboi2 wrote...

For the last time, HE DIDN'T GO THROUGH THE RELAY!

Seems like he may have.

No reason to believe it's galaxy wide? THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE CRUCIBLE.
You're basically saying Joker is thicker than canadian bacon.

There's a pretty large gray area between knowing exactly what's going on with the giant energy pulse and being thicker than canadian bacon.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 20 avril 2012 - 03:45 .

[someone else]

simple - he's trying to get away from the bad writing and plot holes

[zarnk567]

someone else wrote...

simple - he's trying to get away from the bad writing and plot holes

pfff..... no one can escape those.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

There's a pretty large gray area between knowing exactly what's going on with the giant energy pulse and being thicker than canadian bacon.

That's the point. Joker knows nothing. He doesn't know what the crucible is going to do, and doesn't know that the pulse will be harmful. So why is he running? 

[Robhuzz]

txmn1016 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Cut cutscene had Shep telling Joker to take his squadmates and get out of there. However, now that they took it out, it's all speculation...

Even if that had remained in there, the squadmembers were spread all over. 2 of them were at the beam, the rest were fighting somewhere else. And even if he could've picked all of them up somehow, Hackett never gave the order to retreat. Joker knew they would either win or fight to the death there so there's no way he would've fled.

The scene just makes no sense no matter how you try to look at it, I guess they did in on purpose to fit with the rest of the ending.

Yeah, it definitely still wouldn't make much sense--which is why I'm personally hoping they don't just stick that cutscene back in there.  And if they do stick it back in, I'm hoping that they at least make it where the two squaddies that were with you in the final push can't come out of the Normandy at the end. 

Honestly, I don't see them taking out, but I have no suggestions as to what could redeem it either.  I get the feeling that we'll be stuck with all of these lingering questions even after the Ending DLC is released.

I share that feeling, nothing short of completely rewriting the ending is going to fix this mess. I think BioWare is hoping just adding some closure and a relatively happy ending with a high EMS (Shepard gets to see his crew again, interstellar travel is suddenly possible without the relays, even though nihlus said very clearly that it wasn't, earth gets rebuilt etc) is going to take the wind out of the ending haters. Since they still haven't acknowledged the actual problems with the ending.

All they've done so far is damage control. Portray the ending haters as whiners and let the media think this whole outrage is because the ending offers no chance for happiness or closure (which is of course only part of the problem for most). Fix the closure and happy ending part and everyone will be happy. Apart from the fans of course but BioWare will learn that the hard way upon the release of future dlc or new titles.

So yeah, I'm convinced the ending will never become good, or even redeemable without completely rewriting it.

[someone else]

zarnk567 wrote...

someone else wrote...

simple - he's trying to get away from the bad writing and plot holes

pfff..... no one can escape those.

at least he's trying, which is a good deal more than you can say for some...

[CoLeRz]

Alent wrote...

Guys. GUYS. I figured out why Joker is fleeing at the end:








Bad writing.

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

There's a pretty large gray area between knowing exactly what's going on with the giant energy pulse and being thicker than canadian bacon.

That's the point. Joker knows nothing. He doesn't know what the crucible is going to do, and doesn't know that the pulse will be harmful. So why is he running? 

Because it looks dangerous, is raplidly spreading, and is a complete unknown.  Makes sense to me that he'd want to avoid something like that.

[Ericus]

BlackAlpha wrote...

I always thought Joker was simply using FTL at that point. Which makes sense. Things start exploding, so Joker/EDI tries to escape the blast.

If Joker can't outrun that blast at FTL speeds, how the heck did he even have time to react to it?  A shockwave that's faster than FTL means that it would hit the Normandy before the light even arrived at Joker's eye / the Normandy's sensors.  It is completely impossible for him to try to outrun the explosion unless he was already in FTL BEFORE it started.  And as everyone has pointed out on these forums, Joker would never run.

[DJBare]

Errr, Joker would have need to be heading to the charon relay BEFORE the citadel went space magic.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Because it looks dangerous, is raplidly spreading, and is a complete unknown.  Makes sense to me that he'd want to avoid something like that.

a) It's from the Crucible, the Crucible is the reason they're there.

Why did he use the relays?

c) The pulse is utterly harmless to the Reapers, equipment and people on the ground in control and synthesis, therefore the game is telling us that it was a complete overreaction, had he not been in the relays he would've been fine.

d) Why not land on Earth if he wanted to be safe?

[tetsutsuru]

OP, sorry to burst your bubble here but you're gonna have to just drop the issue. The ending sequences, essentially everything after Harbinger's beam, are really that poorly done.

Yes, it sucks.

If the ending sequences were done properly, there would really be nothing to speculate about.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 20 avril 2012 - 03:55 .

[txmn1016]

Robhuzz wrote...

I share that feeling, nothing short of completely rewriting the ending is going to fix this mess. I think BioWare is hoping just adding some closure and a relatively happy ending with a high EMS (Shepard gets to see his crew again, interstellar travel is suddenly possible without the relays, even though nihlus said very clearly that it wasn't, earth gets rebuilt etc) is going to take the wind out of the ending haters. Since they still haven't acknowledged the actual problems with the ending.

All they've done so far is damage control. Portray the ending haters as whiners and let the media think this whole outrage is because the ending offers no chance for happiness or closure (which is of course only part of the problem for most). Fix the closure and happy ending part and everyone will be happy. Apart from the fans of course but BioWare will learn that the hard way upon the release of future dlc or new titles.

So yeah, I'm convinced the ending will never become good, or even redeemable without completely rewriting it.

Yeah...I'm not really convinced that they're even going to do that.  I've kind of taken the stance that (please don't throw things at me) people who believe that BW will change the ending in any substantial way (even adding the hope of a happy ending) are delusional.   They've stated that they're adding more cinematics.  I'm thinking we'll get something more like a director's cut.  It won't chage the outcome, but it will definitely add to it.  

Then there's my much smaller hopeful side--really hoping that they'll do the right thing by promising less and delivering more.  Again though, to save face, they probably won't actually change anything. The best I can hope for I guess, is something to at least partially plug some of these plot holes so I'm not stuck in the narrative limbo.

[Exousia001]

OMFG YOU ARE RIGHT!

In Joker's eyes

EDI > EARTH + ALL SPECIES IN THE GALAXY!

[LandoCalrisian]

Exousia001 wrote...

OMFG YOU ARE RIGHT!

In Joker's eyes

EDI > EARTH + ALL SPECIES IN THE GALAXY!

How does trying to escape the dark energy field mean sacrificing Earth and all species in the galaxy? It's not like Normandy was a front line ship, flying around and blowing up Dreadnaughts.

[The Angry One]

Exousia001 wrote...

OMFG YOU ARE RIGHT!

In Joker's eyes

EDI > EARTH + ALL SPECIES IN THE GALAXY!

*shoots the tube repeatedly*

If the galaxy dies, so does your sexbot, Joker!

[Brother Takka]

I'm sorry OP. But your explanation makes no sense to me.

[DJBare]

Exousia001 wrote...

OMFG YOU ARE RIGHT!

In Joker's eyes

EDI > EARTH + ALL SPECIES IN THE GALAXY!

Even in the very unlikely event that was Jokers motivation, does anyone seriously think EDI would permit him to take off for that reason, EDI is unshackled, she already stated she would give her life for the Shepard and crew, she'd take control of the Normandy and turn it around.

Modifié par DJBare, 20 avril 2012 - 04:05 .

[The Angry One]

LandoCalrisian wrote...

How does trying to escape the dark energy field mean sacrificing Earth and all species in the galaxy? It's not like Normandy was a front line ship, flying around and blowing up Dreadnaughts.

Does one soldier make a difference in a war by themselves? Maybe, maybe not.
Running away is still dereliction of duty.

[The Angry One]

DJBare wrote...

Exousia001 wrote...

OMFG YOU ARE RIGHT!

In Joker's eyes

EDI > EARTH + ALL SPECIES IN THE GALAXY!

Even in the very unlikely event that was Jokers motivation, does anyone seriously think EDI would permit him to take off for that reason, EDI is unshackled, she already stated she would give her life for the crew, she'd take control of the Normandy and turn it around.

There isn't a single person on that ship who'd abandon the fight.
Not Joker, not EDI, not Garrus and not STEEEVE. They're all victims of terminal plot failure.

[DJBare]

The Angry One wrote...

There isn't a single person on that ship who'd abandon the fight.
Not Joker, not EDI, not Garrus and not STEEEVE. They're all victims of terminal plot failure.

You are preaching to the choir, the rest of the crew would lynch joker, not stand smiling at a pretty garden planet.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...

a) It's from the Crucible, the Crucible is the reason they're there.

Yes, the thing that was expected to destroy the Reapers.  All the more reason to try to get out of its way.  He wasn't just protecting himself, he was protecting everyone else that was aboard the Normandy.

Why did he use the relays?

Probably because the energy wave kept following him.

c) The pulse is utterly harmless to the Reapers, equipment and people on the ground in control and synthesis, therefore the game is telling us that it was a complete overreaction, had he not been in the relays he would've been fine.

I completely agree.  It was an overreaction on his part, but I see it as an understandable one.  I also don't see it as running away.  It's not like a grenade where he can throw himself on it and and take the brunt of the blast so everyone else is safe, all he can really do is avoid what looks like shrapnel.  Not like the relays are one-way anyway, he could just as easily go back.  Theoretically I mean, before he realizes that the energy is shorting out the Mass Relays.

d) Why not land on Earth if he wanted to be safe?

'Cause the explosion was hitting Earth as well.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 20 avril 2012 - 04:18 .

[JerusPI]

An Easy way to write off Joker not being there comes from Deus Ex Human Revolution when everyone seems to have Jensen's frequency and Malik uses it to evesdrop during the Shanghai Street Justice case.

[formshifter]

Sad to say, OP is wrong. There is no way Joker knew about what the Crucible pulse would do. Hell, Shepard didn't know until starbrat. Even if Joker DID know, to be inside a relay traveling when the pulse fired, he STILL would have had to retreat from the battle without orders to do so. . . . which would make him a Coward and a traitor.

I don't care what Bioware says or about their "artistry" (BS, considering they added MP for pandering, among other things) or their "speculation". Joker was neither a coward nor a traitor. HE WOULDN'T HAVE ABANDONED SHEPARD LIKE THAT!


Edit to the above poster: Nobody knew Shepard and Anderson had made it to the Crucible. Hell, Coates says "Nobody made it to the beam." Everyone on the ground should have thought that they had to keep fighting so Hammer would have a chance to regroup and get back into the fight. 

Even if Joker was eavesdropping, he would have had to run for the Charon relay as soon as the starbrat explained Destruction. So . . . joker somehow managed to fly down to Earth (through a huge Reaper gauntlet), pick up everyone (even though they were all spread out in different areas), then fly out to the Charon relay and abandon Shepard. EVERYONE ON THE SHIP would have had to abandon Shepard and their mission to flee like cowards. I refuse to believe that. I don't care what Bioware says. We've had three games where everyone was wiling to lay down their life for Shepard and the defeat of the Reapers. I don't think they'd change their minds so much int he last few seconds of hte game. 

Modifié par formshifter, 20 avril 2012 - 04:56 .

[lillitheris]

See the clarification thread in my signature for a treatise of (among others) this topic.

Summary: it takes 5 HOURS to get to Charon from Earth, and it takes at least 10 HOURS to fly from Sol to the nearest habitable planet in FTL.

So, no.

Modifié par lillitheris, 20 avril 2012 - 04:54 .