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[The Wild Turkey]

Inarai wrote...

Morganlafey wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Morganlafey wrote...

Was watching The Last Samurai the other night and thought how cool would it be if DAO had a monk class... A specialisation where you could either fight with your bare fist ou use quarterstaves, polearms, nunchakus, katanas and the likes.

I'm not sure Ferelden has the lore to pull it from(I'll bet its somewhere in Thedas, though...  Most likely the elves, what with the whole opression thing), and frankly, you need to realise things designed as weapons aren't typically considered "martial arts" weapons - there is a tendency for martial arts to emerge in societies where the common people are not permitted to arm themselves, yet vitally need to be able to defend themselves, and so use what they have.  The sai, for example, was originally used in planting seeds.  It's generally assumed that the bo staff was used to carry water.  Kali Escrima has a similar history, but involves sticks-subbing-for-machetes as its....   signature weapon.

Trying to add something like a katana to that?  Complete disregard, really.  I mean, it's just another sword.

Thanks for the history class. I suppose such flight of fancy would appear anachronistic in a fantasy world such as Ferelden. I just thought it would be an interesting addition to the game.

Sorry, I get a little bit excited over that one.  Still, katana's would make a decent sword to see in the game, probably toss them in with longswords(2-handed use was common, but some of the better fighters preferred the one handed use.)

The only samurai I can think of off the top of my head who promoted one handed use of the katana was Miyamato Musashi, but that was as part of a dual weilding system with the wakizashi.  One handed use would be difficult as the weapon isn't balanced for it, but I'd be interested in reading up on it.  Have any links?

I'd definitely like to see some of the more common polearms introduced, it would make some of the battle scenes like Ostagar a little more interesting.  As it was that battle was just a bloody mess.

[Kimarous]

I'll admit, I've never been that big on polearms and the like when presented with superior blade options. I think the only game I've ever favoured the spear in has been "Rise of the Argonauts".

I think there are several major problems with using such weapons in Dragon Age's setting. First, the quarterstaff aesthetic. I view these as "light blunt" weapons; unless someone has the serious muscle to put behind it, there's no way a rod (especially one made of wood) is going to do nearly the same damage as a sword, especially when armor is involved.

Spears and bladed polearms, meanwhile, are better suited for group formations or opponents where you desperately need the extra reach... like horsemen. If three snarling Genlocks were running at you with axes and daggers, what would you rather have: a mobile slashing weapon (sword) or a precise stabbing weapon (spear)?

Modifié par Kimarous, 07 décembre 2009 - 08:16 .

[Tonya777]

How bout Scythes that only Reavers can equip?

[Kimarous]

Scythes are better theoretical weapons than actual ones. Scythes are farming tools; the only reason people think they are weapons is because the Grim Reaper (the harvester of souls, hence the scythe) uses one, so if he is to fight, one would assume the scythe is his weapon. In more believable contexts, it would be extremely awkward and unwieldy.

[Tonya777]

Its common in RPGs



Final fantasy , WoW , even Ninja gaiden all recognize Scythes as weapons



They don't use regular farming scythes either , they always have elaborate ones made specifically to be weapons , we aren't being realistic here I mean do staffs shoot out bursts of elemental energy? No.

[Kimarous]

Right... in that case, how come warriors cannot cleave mountains in twain, or rogues lack afterimage attacks where they instantly backstab their target?



Having magic within believable bounds doesn't mean logical physics should be thrown to the wind.

[ejikvkaske]

It's a shame that the DA:O engine does not account for weapon reach. A two-handed sword hits from the same distance as a dagger. The main advantage of a spear or a pike was that it enabled you to hit an enemy from relatively far away, safely out of the reach of his sword/axe/whatever. Therefore I don't believe spears and polearms would make much sense, they would only create redundancy.

[Tonya777]

Using a scythe as a weapon has nothing to do with defying logic or physics



Kitchen knives aren't intended to be weapons either but does that stop people? No

[Fryce]

ejikvkaske wrote...

It's a shame that the DA:O engine does not account for weapon reach. A two-handed sword hits from the same distance as a dagger. The main advantage of a spear or a pike was that it enabled you to hit an enemy from relatively far away, safely out of the reach of his sword/axe/whatever. Therefore I don't believe spears and polearms would make much sense, they would only create redundancy.

This would create such a diverse dynamic that would really create some intresting builds.
Hope bioware reads this and tries to incorporate this into DA2..sigh a rapidly attacking spear the does ministuns while being few feet away will create some cool "300 esque" moments..and lets not forget: ALL NEW KILLING BLOWS. <3

Modifié par SharpneI, 07 décembre 2009 - 08:57 .

[Wolfva2]

Kimarous wrote...

Scythes are better theoretical weapons than actual ones. Scythes are farming tools; the only reason people think they are weapons is because the Grim Reaper (the harvester of souls, hence the scythe) uses one, so if he is to fight, one would assume the scythe is his weapon. In more believable contexts, it would be extremely awkward and unwieldy.

Which begs the question...WHO would Death be fighting?  Besides, he's the Harvester of souls...not the battler for souls.  

Scythes are terrible weapons.  Try using one sometime.  Sure, I'm sure some farmer somewhere used one as an improvised weapon when attacked by a rabbid opposum or something, but intentionally?  In a real fight? 

[Tonya777]

Uhh a (deliberatley crafted as a weapon and not cheap standard farm issue) Scythe could take someones head off in 1 swipe before that person (Whos lets say using a regular sword) could even reach the one with the scythe

[ejikvkaske]

SharpneI wrote...
This would create such a diverse dynamic that would really create some intresting builds.
Hope
bioware reads this and tries to incorporate this into DA2..sigh a
rapidly attacking spear the does ministuns while being few feet away
will create some cool "300 esque" moments..and lets not forget: ALL NEW
KILLING BLOWS. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]

That would be awesome, but very unlikely to happen.

Tonya777 wrote...

Uhh a (deliberatley crafted as a weapon and not cheap standard farm issue) Scythe could take someones head off in 1 swipe before that person (Whos lets say using a regular sword) could even reach the one with the scythe

I've actually cut grass with a scythe in real life. Let me tell you - it's almost impossible to take a person's head off with, unless he's buried in the ground up to his shoulders. It has to do with the shape and angle of the blade. Schythes were not normally used as weapons for a reason.

Modifié par ejikvkaske, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:16 .

[Inarai]

Kimarous wrote...

I'll admit, I've never been that big on polearms and the like when presented with superior blade options. I think the only game I've ever favoured the spear in has been "Rise of the Argonauts".

I think there are several major problems with using such weapons in Dragon Age's setting. First, the quarterstaff aesthetic. I view these as "light blunt" weapons; unless someone has the serious muscle to put behind it, there's no way a rod (especially one made of wood) is going to do nearly the same damage as a sword, especially when armor is involved.

A metal staff could function similar to a mace.  But knowing how staves are uses(Or at least one style, as there are many.  It's a fairly prevalent weapon, and one of the 4 main Chinese weapons, and was known as the Grandfather of All Weapons), I've got to laugh at what you're saying here...  It's something of a short-sighted view.

And really, it's not all about muscle.

Tonya777 wrote...

Uhh a (deliberatley crafted as a weapon
and not cheap standard farm issue) Scythe could take someones head off
in 1 swipe before that person (Whos lets say using a regular sword)
could even reach the one with the scythe

I'll assume you mean angleing the blade out, making it more of a traditional polearm.

Except that the person with the sword can parry and move in at the same time, and is very rapidly too close for the scythe the be a threat.  With the right weapon or sheild, or a free hand, you can take control of that weapon's movement for long enough to get the kill, too.

The Wild Turkey wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Morganlafey wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Morganlafey wrote...

Was
watching The Last Samurai the other night and thought how cool would it
be if DAO had a monk class... A specialisation where you could either
fight with your bare fist ou use quarterstaves, polearms, nunchakus,
katanas and the likes.

I'm not sure Ferelden has the
lore to pull it from(I'll bet its somewhere in Thedas, though...  Most
likely the elves, what with the whole opression thing), and frankly,
you need to realise things designed as weapons aren't typically
considered "martial arts" weapons - there is a tendency for martial
arts to emerge in societies where the common people are not permitted
to arm themselves, yet vitally need to be able to defend themselves,
and so use what they have.  The sai, for example, was originally used
in planting seeds.  It's generally assumed that the bo staff was used
to carry water.  Kali Escrima has a similar history, but involves
sticks-subbing-for-machetes as its....   signature weapon.

Trying to add something like a katana to that?  Complete disregard, really.  I mean, it's just another sword.

Thanks
for the history class. I suppose such flight of fancy would appear
anachronistic in a fantasy world such as Ferelden. I just thought it
would be an interesting addition to the game. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png

Sorry,
I get a little bit excited over that one.  Still, katana's would make a
decent sword to see in the game, probably toss them in with
longswords(2-handed use was common, but some of the better fighters
preferred the one handed use.)

The only samurai
I can think of off the top of my head who promoted one handed use of
the katana was Miyamato Musashi, but that was as part of a dual
weilding system with the wakizashi.  One handed use would be difficult
as the weapon isn't balanced for it, but I'd be interested in reading
up on it.  Have any links?

Musashi's the only one I can think of off-hand...  His reasoning, if I'm not mistaken, had nothing to do with the second weapon and everything to do with the added freedom of movement you obtain.  I suspect that is under an assumption of a level of skill wherein you have proper control.

Still, Musashi's reccomendation is worth that of 5 warriors, no?

Modifié par Inarai, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:10 .

[FedericoV]

I don't care about polearms and spears.



Resources to develop a game are limited. I prefer if they invest that money elsewhere (like game system testing or visual epilogues instead of text ones) considering the amount of time and resources needed to implement properly those kind of weapons (animation, etc. etc. etc.) that then are used by 5% of the players (and even who asks for them will use a sword). The number of weapons in DA:O is enough.

[Inarai]

FedericoV wrote...

I don't care about polearms and spears.

Resources to develop a game are limited. I prefer if they invest that money elsewhere (like game system testing or visual epilogues instead of text ones) considering the amount of time and resources needed to implement properly those kind of weapons (animation, etc. etc. etc.) that then are used by 5% of the players (and even who asks for them will use a sword). The number of weapons in DA:O is enough.

Maybe, or maybe they'll do it as DLC(Expansion level, perhaps), or in sequel.

But the numbers you're suggesting...  I really hope you don't expect anyone to actually buy that.  It basically reads as "I won't use it, therefore, I can reliably assume only a tiny portion of players will", which relies on the assumption that your habits and wishes hold for nearly everyone - an assumption which cannot be made.

Modifié par Inarai, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:00 .

[marshalleck]

FedericoV wrote...

I don't care about polearms and spears.

Resources to develop a game are limited. I prefer if they invest that money elsewhere (like game system testing or visual epilogues instead of text ones) considering the amount of time and resources needed to implement properly those kind of weapons (animation, etc. etc. etc.) that then are used by 5% of the players (and even who asks for them will use a sword). The number of weapons in DA:O is enough.

This argument could just as easily apply to the massive bloat that is Mage spell selection. They really don't need more options than the other two classes combined.

[FedericoV]

Inarai wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

I don't care about polearms and spears.

Resources to develop a game are limited. I prefer if they invest that money elsewhere (like game system testing or visual epilogues instead of text ones) considering the amount of time and resources needed to implement properly those kind of weapons (animation, etc. etc. etc.) that then are used by 5% of the players (and even who asks for them will use a sword). The number of weapons in DA:O is enough.

Maybe, or maybe they'll do it as DLC(Expansion level, perhaps), or in sequel.

But the numbers you're suggesting...  I really hope you don't expect anyone to actually buy that.  It basically reads as "I won't use it, therefore, I can reliably assume only a tiny portion of players will", which is in no way logically sound.

I'm not talking about logic but about numbers and facts. If I remember correctly, in the old forums the devs explained that polearms and pikes weren't developed because those weapon are not popular enough to justify the development costs. Probably they have made a market research to decide wich weapon would have been cut or not.

In a perfect world, each weapon would be developed properly. For example, I would prefer morning stars over polearms. Unfortunately those game are developed with a budget and choices have to be made. Honestly, I do not miss polearms and pikes . 

Then, maybe, some modder with the tool will cover those missing weapon.

[Inarai]

FedericoV wrote...

Inarai wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

I don't care about polearms and spears.

Resources to develop a game are limited. I prefer if they invest that money elsewhere (like game system testing or visual epilogues instead of text ones) considering the amount of time and resources needed to implement properly those kind of weapons (animation, etc. etc. etc.) that then are used by 5% of the players (and even who asks for them will use a sword). The number of weapons in DA:O is enough.

Maybe, or maybe they'll do it as DLC(Expansion level, perhaps), or in sequel.

But the numbers you're suggesting...  I really hope you don't expect anyone to actually buy that.  It basically reads as "I won't use it, therefore, I can reliably assume only a tiny portion of players will", which is in no way logically sound.

I'm not talking about logic but about numbers and facts. If I remember correctly, in the old forums the devs explained that polearms and pikes weren't developed because those weapon are not popular enough to justify the development costs. Probably they have made a market research to decide wich weapon would have been cut or not.

Undoubtedly based on history from games where they are done poorly.  With some interesting talents, and good animations, they'd be a nice addition.

But you did pull a number out of the air, without basis - not popular enough has a certain sort of meaning when the project involves the creation of a brand new engine compounded by the risk of a new IP.

[FedericoV]

Inarai wrote...

Undoubtedly based on history from games where they are done poorly.  With some interesting talents, and good animations, they'd be a nice addition.

Every new weapon would be a nice addition, I do agree. I would love to use a properly animated/implemented Morning Star-Flail etc. I would love to play a rogue with a whip on Indiana Jones style.

I'm only saying that I understand the devs choice on a common sense basis.

But you did pull a number out of the air, without basis - not popular enough has a certain sort of meaning when the project involves the creation of a brand new engine compounded by the risk of a new IP.

As far as community pool goes, it isn't pulled out of the air. If I remember correctly it was more or less the score for those weapons in a pool made on the Bioware website about "what weapon you plan to use on Dragon Age". I would not be surprised if a market research would give the same result.

But mind, I could be wrong and do not remember correctly.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:35 .

[Inarai]

FedericoV wrote...

But you did pull a number out of the air, without basis - not popular enough has a certain sort of meaning when the project involves the creation of a brand new engine compounded by the risk of a new IP.

As far as community pool goes, it isn't pulled out of the air. If I remember correctly it was more or less the score for those weapons in a pool made on the Bioware website about "what weapon you plan to use on Dragon Age". I would not be surprised if a market research would give the same result.

But mind, I could be wrong and do not remember correctly.

Ah, so it's simply open to every source of error known to man.  Okay...

You'll forgive me if I don't trust the number, though?

Still, I feel at this stage a lot of the market is in people replaying the game, who would get a lot of value out of another combat style.  Even if the former asumption isn't true yet, it will certainly start to shift that way given time - making this a nice thing to add in DLC.

[Leather_Rebel90]

Naw, I hate Spears and the like. Give me a nice, well balanced One Hand Sword.

[maggitPL]

Kimarous wrote...

Scythes are better theoretical weapons than actual ones. Scythes are farming tools; the only reason people think they are weapons is because the Grim Reaper (the harvester of souls, hence the scythe) uses one, so if he is to fight, one would assume the scythe is his weapon. In more believable contexts, it would be extremely awkward and unwieldy.

Actually, scythes were used quite often as a weapon after altering the blade. Although used mostly by peasants during wars or peasant uprisings they were quite effective. In Poland they were called Kosynierzy (Scythemen). These pics are sort of "recent" (18th, 19th century) but they were also present in 17th and much earlier in Persia, etc.

http://pl.wikipedia....=20070616215751

http://pl.wikipedia....=20070805161254

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/War_scythe

Modifié par maggitPL, 07 décembre 2009 - 07:41 .

[FedericoV]

@Inarai: Yes, community pool are not reliable. But I think that Bioware do not take decisions on community polls, but make proper market reserach before deciding wich feature will be cut or not. And that's not assumption on my part, but facts confirmed by devs (I mean, the part about Pikes not being popular enough to justify development costs).

Having said that, I would have nothing against a polearm DLC. I could even buy it.

Even if I would still prefer a Whip DLC with a Bondage Morrigain add-on . You know, I'm a perv .

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[enderandrew]

Japanese peasants were known to fight with a kama, which is a short scythe.



http://en.wikipedia....i/Kama_(weapon)



I made some and tried them in the SCA. I fought with two at a time. I would usually use one kama to catch the other person's weapon, and hook it, and then go in with the second kama for the kill.



It was very effective. I could also use a kama to try and pull a shield down. I learned in the SCA not to underestimate sword and shield. It really is amazingly effective.

[Kimarous]

A kama is closer to a sickle than a scythe. It isn't a polearm, but a hand weapon.



As for those "war scythes", those are significantly altered into a more halberd-like weapon. Scythes, as they regularly are, do not make good weapons. Besides, if someone heard they could wield a scythe in this game and got that thing, they would be severely disappointed.