Aller au contenu

Photo

Does anyone see a disturbing trend here?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
150 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages
I have taken a bit of a break from the forums here for a while and I've come back after a few months with some concerns.

Watching Bioware games develop over the past decade+, I have noted how with improvements to technology, gameplay interfaces, graphics, etc., have slowly evolved the games being developed. This is fine and good and is the nature of all such things. 

However, with the release of DA2 and ME3 (and, arguably, ME2), I have noticed a disturbing trend.

When ME2 came out, people complained it had lost its RPG elements, turning itself into a shooter rather than a story-based game. I personally liked the story of ME2, thought what they did with the suicide mission ending was pretty brilliant and enjoyed all of the characters, but I can see someone's argument - the "bang-shoot-'em-up" vibe was much higher than it was in the previous game. 

Prior to DA2 coming out, people worried that the next DA game would receive the same treatment - turned into a shooter with swords. Bioware came out and said that's not the case - the DA series is separate from ME and we wouldn't have it any other way. 

Then DA2 came out, and it felt EXACTLY like that. The ME dialogue wheel was implemented, which is still being argued about to this day. The blood, guts and exploding enemies was blasted as being ridiculous. Certain core RPG elements were completely removed, allowing no customizaiton of follower equipment. Companions, who used to be capable of full dialogue in the depths of the deepest catacombs, reverted to the ME format of parsed out dialogue once every ten or so hours of gameplay.

And the ending was, narratively speaking, a disaster (IMHO). It gave you totally static options at the end that weren't based in the decions you made (either in DAO or in DA2) and gave you the exact same outcome, minus a slight alteration. The team has come out and addressed these issues, saying it was not their intention and that time constraints and resources were not there to do what the team had truly envisioned as the experience.

Fast forward to the distant future (Winter 2012). Bioware is back in spotlight. DA2 was a fluke, they've learned their mistakes, EA/Bioware as a whole has poured their heart and soul into making sure the end of the trilogy is satisfactory and takes into account all of the choices made in previous games. Anyone who is reading on these forums I'm assuming has some idea of how false of a reality that was.

The team has not come out and said a mistake was made (the DA team didn't say that either until around the summer last year, when DLC started coming out) but I don't have the slightest doubt that the ME team will be having the same "Come to Jesus" talks as well. And on top of the ending of ME3 not just being nonsensical, lacking closure and being the same expereince for everyone, it is also fairly apparent to me that resources and time were a big issue as well there. 

After all, the ending three choices, in and of themselves, left the universe in vastly different places (not going to spoil anything) but the way they are presented in game gave almost identical experiences, leaving the player to scratch their head or "make up" their own ending. Which is poor story telling, plain and simple. The only reason I can think of these were so inarticulated and nothing was wrapped up (either on a personal, companion level or on a galactic level) was cost and time constraints. It was Act 3 of DA2 all over again, except on a much more destructive scale.

Now we are looking at DA3 - the return of the Dragon Age series. The hope for the fans of RPGs everywhere. The reclamation of the Origins mantle!

The developers are listening, the fans are excited, the promises (while few so far) are already beginning to grow.



But... are many of us going to be sitting here on these forums, wailing and gnashing over broken promises, poorly developed plots, painful glitches, shameless Day One DLC and an ending that we wished we'd never seen? Again? 

I understand budgetary concerns, timelines, the fact that corners must be cut at times... but let's look at the other side of this. How much is EA/Bioware spending on marketing? How much are they spending on the PR teams which are crafting statements to do damage control year after year? How much are they spending on multiplayer, or outside products such as novels, iPhone apps, Facebook games, etc.? How much are they spending on selling a less-than-stellar experience, and then blaming time and money for the resaon why it didn't live up to promises?

I see this as an overall very dangerous precedent to be setting, both for Bioware and for the gaming industry as a whole. Players are left unsatisfied, speculating about the game that "might have been" instead of the one they actually play. Marketing expenses are soaring through the roof, comprising a large percentage of the average game these days [url=<a href=]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development#Marketing">, while Bioware is pushing the game out the door before it is ready. 

And I could understand this if it ultimately resulted in profits... but it doesn't. If you review EA's financial's they are pretty dismal. Their stock price has plummeted over the past year, and it has been declining steadily for the past three. Revenue is on the decline, despite countless attempts to squeeze more from players, with pre-order bonuses, Collection Editions, Day-One DLC, etc. And the response on each game seems to not be "let's make a game that the fans are begging for and would enjoy" but rather "how can we do more marketing and create ways to ensure online connectivity, paid DLC and micro transactions!"

At some point, it has to become painfully clear - the model being floated by EA for their games is unsustainable. EA has made themselves a reputation in the industry of purchasing creative and succesful IPs, gutting them of any creativity, marketing them in the most mass-appeal form possible until their is nothing left of the IP and its parent company but a punch line, gutting the staff and moving on. So EA/Bioware needs to look at themselves and ask "What are our intentions? Are we looking at making the best possible video game? Or are we looking at making the most profitable video game, or the video game that will look the best on our balance sheet?"

Ironically, it seems when developers like Bethesda, Blizzard and Valve take three, four, five year development cycles (like what ME and DA:O had) they wind up making BOATLOADS of cash. But when EA/Bioware attempts to push out a sequel on a budgetary timeline due to fiscal reasons, their stock takes a nose dive.

And the obvious response is "If you don't like the way these companies do business, why bother? Quit playing or find another game!" I have, to some degree. But Bioware doesn't make bad games. They make really great, gripping, emotional games... that crap out at the end. At least the past three years they have. If Bioware made flawless endings to their otherwise good games, they would have smoked Skyrim's 10 million sales, no problem. Problem is, the way they handle the 5% of their games that are done poorly RUINS the rest of the experience. I can handle bad from the get go in a game - its easy to forget and put aside. But when a game and/or franchise that shows limitless promise and possibility then gets tossed in the gutter through hamhocked finishing and story that was developed and pulled out a hat barely a month before the game goes Gold (aka nothing more is going to be touched on the game for months while it is printed and distributed) is just a slap in the face. 


So... to the forums at large, I ask you - what do you think Bioware should do for future games? What do you think we should do as video game consumers? And will you preorder DA3, despite fan reaction on DA2 and ME3?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 20 avril 2012 - 05:59 .


#2
brushyourteeth

brushyourteeth
  • Members
  • 4 418 messages
nope.

#3
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 11 028 messages
Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

#4
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages
Weird. For some reason none of my text showed up, then I click Edit, Submit and it all shows up.

Forum demons aside, any thoughts on the post now that it is visible?

#5
brushyourteeth

brushyourteeth
  • Members
  • 4 418 messages
I do agree that DA and ME have both grown away from the solid storytelling and dialogue-driven narrative that set them apart from other games in the industry.

ME was kind of destined to, as a sci-fi shooter with a strong fan base that clamors for that sort of thing.

I'd had high hopes that that wouldn't happen to DA, but it did. Still love it, but yeah, I guess I am a little worried.

#6
brushyourteeth

brushyourteeth
  • Members
  • 4 418 messages
*double post/return of the forum demons*

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 20 avril 2012 - 05:54 .


#7
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages
Yes.

Despite constant assurances to the contrary.

I'm not preordering, and not buying until I see reviews. I most likely wont buy at all, because it's unlikely that Origin is going away, and I will not be bullied by PC-spying into buying a console copy of the game.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 20 avril 2012 - 06:11 .


#8
Maria Caliban

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... to the forums at large, I ask you - what do you think Bioware should do for future games? What do you think we should do as video game consumers? And will you preorder DA3, despite fan reaction on DA2 and ME3?

I will preorder DA3.

And BioWare should do whatever they want to do.

#9
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

I will preorder DA3.

And BioWare should do whatever they want to do.


Well, I have no doubt in my mind that they want to make money and not have their fans go into fanatic rages, blasting them on Metacritic, demanding refunds, and/or speaking about them horribly in every possible venue.

So how would you suggest they accomplish that?

Other than praying for a miracle that all of their fans will never complain about anything, ever, and buy their games despite some glaring flaws, of course.

#10
Ystitans78

Ystitans78
  • Members
  • 36 messages
I liked the combat better on DA 2 than DA: O (PS3 player here) as for the Mass Effect series I have only played 2 & 3 so I can't say if the combat was better in the first game. The Dragon Age series from my understanding was never meant to be a trilogy that each game is going to be about a different character in a different part of the world. Can any of us that post on the forums outside of the Bioware employees really say that any game was rushed? None of us here really know when DA 2 or ME 3 really started being worked on. My next question is when has Bioware ever said that they are going back to the DA O play style? As far as I heard they haven't said what they are with DA3's combat. Finally yes I am preordering DA 3 and it will be a day one buy for me.

#11
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 125 messages
First of all, this would concern me much more if we hadn't just seen the rise of fan-funded projects.

Second, when BioWare was acquired by EA, EA's executive made it clear that they had no plans to interfere with the way BioWare was run. However, that executive executes at the will of the Board of Directors, and a falling share price is exactly the sort of thing that might cause a change in that executive. As such, any promises made by the previous executive would be irrelevant. This was always the risk of the EA acquisition. Regardless of EA's stated benevolence, they could not credibly guarantee that benevolence going forward.

I do think BioWare is now chasing a non-existent market with their unpolished hybrid adventure games (rather than the polished tactical roleplaying games they used to make), with the market they've abandoned now going unserved (with the exception of independent titles from Paradox and Spiderweb, or the aforementioned fan-funded projects). And BioWare's repeated claims that the market has changed ring quite hollow in the face of Skyrim's sales figures. Bethesda has been making fundamentally the same game for 18 years; the market can't have changed much.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 20 avril 2012 - 06:13 .


#12
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... to the forums at large, I ask you - what do you think Bioware should do for future games? What do you think we should do as video game consumers? And will you preorder DA3, despite fan reaction on DA2 and ME3?

I will preorder DA3.

And BioWare should do whatever they want to do.


I plan on preordering DA3--if only to get all the free bonus stuff that generally comes with preorders these days.  I like to see Bioware trying new things, even if they don't work out 100%.  And I'm not married to one particular style.

#13
Maria Caliban

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well, I have no doubt in my mind that they want to make money and not have their fans go into fanatic rages, blasting them on Metacritic, demanding refunds, and/or speaking about them horribly in every possible venue.

So how would you suggest they accomplish that?

Other than praying for a miracle that all of their fans will never complain about anything, ever, and buy their games despite some glaring flaws, of course.

There's no way to do that.

BioWare has a diverse set of fans and no matter what they do, they're going to upset part of them. And those fans have learned that if they want to vent, all they need to do is head to Metacritic and create a 2.0 review of the game. All it takes is a couple hundred bad votes to sink the rating.

#14
Zexiv

Zexiv
  • Members
  • 62 messages
I'm alredy planning not to pre-order DA3 and wait to see how the forums re-act to see if I'll get it.  I pre-ordered DA2 and felt like there was a bait and switch was pulled to some degree so I don't see wanting to go through that again. Who knows it could be that the PC gamer market vs. the console market is such that the buisness model makes sence but I'm wondering how much of the DA2 sales were preorders based off of peoples experience with DA:O.

Seeing what happens with DA3 will be interresting  I think building off of DA2 is a gamble but maybe it'll workout.  I'm just wondering what would happen to the francise if DA3 sales end up  on the same trendline when compared to DA:O --->DA2-->DA3.  Would there be a DA4 or would DA4 end up going back to the games roots etc...  Rgiht now I'm wondering if DA:O was the cash cow with a long term investment and now the franchise is being milked for all it's worth.

Take it easy

#15
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 125 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare has a diverse set of fans

But they didn't used to.  That's the difference.

They've replaced some of the old fans with new fans, but the new fans don't resemble the old fans, so now they have a heterogeneous market that cannot possibly be served by a single game.

#16
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Bethesda has been making fundamentally the same game for 18 years; the market can't have changed much.


They have been making the same STYLE of game for 18 years, NOT fundamentally the same game.  Morrowind was FAR more radically different from Daggerfall than Oblivion was from Morrowind.  Redguard and Battlespire weren't much like Daggerfall OR Morrowind--they were even stylistic departures.

It is also not so much that the market has changed, but that games are much, much more expensive to make nowadays, which, in turn, means you can't make a shiny new AAA title and sell like Planescape: Torment did.  (Torment was a commercial flop even for the time when it was released.)  One failure like that would probably take down even a large studio.

It is utterly unrealistic to expect major developers and publishers to do indie-like titles as their major offerings.  If you don't like the necessary stylistic constraints of AAA titles, then play indies.  I'm sure there are plenty of great indie games out there that could use your support.

Me, I prefer to play AAA titles because I buy, MAYBE, one or two new games a year, and I want all the bells and whistles I can get.  I'm not interested in digging through a huge mountain of mediocre indie slush in order to find a gem or two.  I stick with what I know I'm going to enjoy--even if elements of it are imperfect.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 20 avril 2012 - 06:30 .


#17
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

There's no way to do that.

BioWare has a diverse set of fans and no matter what they do, they're going to upset part of them. And those fans have learned that if they want to vent, all they need to do is head to Metacritic and create a 2.0 review of the game. All it takes is a couple hundred bad votes to sink the rating.


I think there is. 

You have said yourself, Maria, that classic Bioware RPGs aren't really your normal cup of tea. But you still play them because they are exceptionally good games. 

Shooters aren't my cup of tea, but I wound up playing Mass Effect and Deus Ex: HR. Party games are not my usual thing, but I've had fun playing Rock Band or Wii Sports with a group of people. Strategy games aren't what I live and breathe by, but I've been known to get hooked on a game of Civilization IV or Command and Conquer.

Point being -  a good game transcends their genre. Just because a fan likes a voiced protagonist and Love Interests over a player that likes a silent protagonist and old school customization, doesn't mean you couldn't create a game that doens't cater to one crowd over the other, at least to the point where one group would be totally polarized. 

Can Bioware make a game with every feature everyone wants? Of course not. But they CAN make a game that is enjoyable to the vast majority of their fans. I feel that the reason they have not been is due to them attempting to force timelines and budgets that, as time goes on, appear to be totally unrealistic to produce the kind of end product that fans expect from them.

I don't lay the blame at EA's feet, because Bioware IS EA. There is a difference between the two, sure. And I'm sure EA's stock pirce and corporate policies force them to dictate certain things to Bioware directors and producers. But unless Bioware is looking to extradite themselves from EA before DA3 is released, its strictly a non-sequiter. EA=Bioware. Bioware=EA. I lay the blame of unfinished products at the feet of them both equally, since they are for all intents and purposes the same entity.

#18
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 125 messages

PsychoBlonde wrote...

They have been making the same STYLE of game for 18 years, NOT fundamentally the same game.  Morrowind was FAR more radically different from Daggerfall than Oblivion was from Morrowind.  Redguard and Battlespire weren't much like Daggerfall OR Morrowind--they were even stylistic departures.

I was thinking of just the core TES titles - Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim.

And I would say those games were all very similar.

It is also not so much that the market has changed, but that games are much, much more expensive to make nowadays, which, in turn, means you can't make a shiny new AAA title and sell like Planescape: Torment did.  (Torment was a commercial flop even for the time when it was released.)  One failure like that would probably take down even a large studio.

Except that's not true.  If the market hasn't changed, then they should be able to use the older technology at a lower cost.  I think BioWare is spending way too much time on art and acting and not devoting enough resources to mechanical design (they've got the writing just about perfect - they should keep doing what they're doing on the writing front).

It is utterly unrealistic to expect major developers and publishers to do indie-like titles as their major offerings.

 
It's utterly unrealistic of major developers to expect gamers to buy their games just because they look pretty.

#19
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It's utterly unrealistic of major developers to expect gamers to buy their games just because they look pretty.

You think too highly of the average gamer. :mellow:

#20
Uccio

Uccio
  • Members
  • 4 696 messages

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... to the forums at large, I ask you - what do you think Bioware should do for future games? What do you think we should do as video game consumers? And will you preorder DA3, despite fan reaction on DA2 and ME3?



Sir, I bow to you. That was well played indeed, good form.

As for what they should do? That is entirely up to EA/Bioware. They can go back making spectacular RPG games or they can go for the shoot 'em up. But what I know is that I will not preorder DA3 and I will wait for the gamer reviews before I make my decision weather or not to buy it. DA2 was already a stop sign for me and because of it I did not buy ME3 and most likely will not buy it ever because of the feedback of the gameplay and ending. I had time to think this over and it doesn´t bother me anyomore. I just hope EA/Bio will go for the route I hope they do.

Anyone know any other good similar rpg´s?  Image IPB

Modifié par Ukki, 20 avril 2012 - 06:38 .


#21
bEVEsthda

bEVEsthda
  • Members
  • 3 615 messages
@Fast Jimmy
You're of course right. And the situation is hardly new. ...And it's pretty clear cut.

EA is a sick organization and it has been sick a long time. I don't know the ultimate cause of the sickness, but sometimes I get this feeling that important decision makers think gamers are stupid.
(...and I do know why I get that feeling!)

...It's all so depressing and frustrating.

Please EA, it's not about inventing new ways to squeeze money, it's about making your customers happy and satisfied. That's not impossible at all. Others are quite able to do it. And you were so close with ME3. Why was it worth it to ruin it all? For what? Multiplayer and a release shedule? You throw away hundreds of willing millions for some half-assed effort to squezze out a few dollars more?

And you had a big winner like DA. Was it worth it to ruin it all? For an attempt to abuse that popularity to market a completely different game, in some silly cartoon/anime hot-rod samurai universe someone had envisioned for some multi-business franchise empire?

Do you ever watch that show with chef Gordon Ramsey? With restaurants on the brink, where customers do not return? You, EA, is like such a restaurant. What are you going to do about it? Focus on the food or more Facebook projects?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 20 avril 2012 - 06:39 .


#22
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 995 messages

So... to the forums at large, I ask you - what do you think Bioware should do for future games? What do you think we should do as video game consumers? And will you preorder DA3, despite fan reaction on DA2 and ME3?


I would respond to what Bioware could do to fix their problems, but I've done that numerous times in the past that I can't be bothered anymore. I'm just going to see what they do and see if I like it.

Will I pre-order? Maybe, but chances are I won't.

But yes, I do see the disturbing trend.

Do you ever watch that show with chef Gordon Ramsey? With restaurants on the brink, where customers do not return? You, EA, is like such a restaurant. What are you going to do about it? Focus on the food or more Facebook projects?


Kitchen Nightmares I think was what it was called. Gordon Ramsay would definitely get EA in shape, because they are definitely losing sight of what they need to do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 avril 2012 - 06:42 .


#23
Ridan82

Ridan82
  • Members
  • 7 messages
No way in hell short and simple that I would preorder DA 3. Wont even take the time to trie it out untill I have read the fanbase feedback. Honestly the words of 75 critics dont mean **** obviusly

#24
Sabriana

Sabriana
  • Members
  • 4 381 messages
I won't pre-order DA3 simply because I've never pre-ordered any game, ever. However, I won't rush out to buy DA3 at release date, like I did with other Bioware games.

Yes, I've seen the trend. ME and DA seem to move ever closer together. I don't like it at all. I feel sad about it, but as a consumer, I will only buy what suits my needs and wishes.

Sure, I've played many games in my life, and I like a lot of games that are not made/developed by Bioware, but Bioware was always special to me, ever since BG2. I will still check up on them, and I will still be in the forums for the games I love, but I will not buy anything that does not cater to my wishes. I respect their rights, and I will adhere to my principles.

EA/Bioware are most certainly entitled to develop games the way they want to. It is their decision alone. However, I am also entitled to spend my money the way I want to. It is my decision alone.

I also question the "it's so expensive to make a good game" attitude. That's why I'm keeping a very close eye on the kickstarters. A huge chunk of the expense seems to go to PR, marketing, and the middle-man (distributor). With them out of the picture, large money gobbling entities can be cut out completely. Who knows what is possible then. We'll just have to wait and see. Which I will do.

#25
cJohnOne

cJohnOne
  • Members
  • 2 423 messages
Since DragonAge is the only games that I like at the momment. I would definitely Pre-order probably ship by ups too.