150 réponses à ce sujet

[Ystitans78]

Didn't Mass Effect 3 sell really well?

[Dakota Strider]

I have already stated in different threads, that it will take a very visible, radical change in the way Bioware has been doing things, for me to pre-order DA3. And it will take some very good reviews from sources I trust (not rags like Game Informer that seem to give their advertisers total passes on anything they market), for me to buy it at full price right after it releases. I would like to see DA3 become a great, epic RPG, in the pattern of DAO or earlier games, with some new tech enhancements. And if they revert back to the tried and trued methods of their past success, I would gladly pay full price, and pay for DLC's (even some that may sound a bit silly.) I want to support a company that gives me what I want. But their last few titles are showing me that they appear to want to target a different audience. And the OP's statistics prove they have not been successful in doing that. Bioware can continue to discard proven customers, and hope to attract new customers with their hybrid crpgs. Or they can try to win back the once loyal fans that used to make them successful.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 20 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[Atakuma]

Both ME3 and ME2 were quite successful, DA2 was the exception. The truth is Bioware never would have and probably never will sell as much as Skyrim, to say they could easily sell 10 million if they went back to the good old days is frankly naive.

[brushyourteeth]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare has a diverse set of fans

But they didn't used to.  That's the difference.

They've replaced some of the old fans with new fans, but the new fans don't resemble the old fans, so now they have a heterogeneous market that cannot possibly be served by a single game.

I agree with everything about this.

[bEVEsthda]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

First of all, this would concern me much more if we hadn't just seen the rise of fan-funded projects.

Second, when BioWare was acquired by EA, EA's executive made it clear that they had no plans to interfere with the way BioWare was run. However, that executive executes at the will of the Board of Directors, and a falling share price is exactly the sort of thing that might cause a change in that executive. As such, any promises made by the previous executive would be irrelevant. This was always the risk of the EA acquisition. Regardless of EA's stated benevolence, they could not credibly guarantee that benevolence going forward.

I do think BioWare is now chasing a non-existent market with their unpolished hybrid adventure games (rather than the polished tactical roleplaying games they used to make), with the market they've abandoned now going unserved (with the exception of independent titles from Paradox and Spiderweb, or the aforementioned fan-funded projects). And BioWare's repeated claims that the market has changed ring quite hollow in the face of Skyrim's sales figures. Bethesda has been making fundamentally the same game for 18 years; the market can't have changed much.

There's also this possibility that the market Bioware chase, would rather want the "Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate" than the 'combat-on-the-side-movies' Bioware tries to mold these days. I don't play many cRPGs, just the 'big' titles. I'm not an old-school RPG player. I used to play all the Japanese fighting games on consoles. I play shooters, Half Life, Max Payne, Far Cry, Crysis, Stalker,.. I have all the CoD games, including the expansions and have played them all to end and death.

If I play a shooter, I want a good shooter (original Far Cry was really good, still the pinnacle of FPS).
If I play an action fighting game, I want a good fighting game (Soul Calibur IV was the most fun for me)
So what would I want if I'm to play a cRPG? ...Pray guess?

Now, - do I want DA to be more like CoD? Absolutely not.
Do I want DA to be more like DA2? No way.
Do I want DA to be like DA:O? Not really, but it sure was good enough.
So What do I want from DA then? - I want it to be the successor series to the Baldur's Gate series! (as I believe it was intended from the beginning)

(But what do I know, I might be completely unique. Just a freak accident...)

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 20 avril 2012 - 07:25 .

[addiction21]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


So... to the forums at large, I ask you - what do you think Bioware should do for future games? What do you think we should do as video game consumers? And will you preorder DA3, despite fan reaction on DA2 and ME3?

BioWare should do what they want to do. Reap what they sow so to speak.
I do not think for anyone else. I will do as I always have done. Buy what intereasts me and if I do pre-order I will accept I have thrown my money at a unproven product. Something I accept could let me down in a terrible way.

What I will not do is make knee jerk childish reactions like "I hate BioWare. I will never buy anything from them, pre-order anything or wait to buy a game till after user reviews are out" and then show up the day of the release with the game registered.

I take all fan reaction with a large grain of salt... with salt on top.

[Atakuma]

addiction21 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


So... to the forums at large, I ask you - what do you think Bioware should do for future games? What do you think we should do as video game consumers? And will you preorder DA3, despite fan reaction on DA2 and ME3?

BioWare should do what they want to do. Reap what they sow so to speak.
I do not think for anyone else. I will do as I always have done. Buy what intereasts me and if I do pre-order I will accept I have thrown my money at a unproven product. Something I accept could let me down in a terrible way.

What I will not do is make knee jerk childish reactions like "I hate BioWare. I will never buy anything from them, pre-order anything or wait to buy a game till after user reviews are out" and then show up the day of the release with the game registered.

I take all fan reaction with a large grain of salt... with salt on top.

Whoa, this mirrors my sentiments exactly.

[bEVEsthda]

Atakuma wrote...

Both ME3 and ME2 were quite successful, DA2 was the exception. The truth is Bioware never would have and probably never will sell as much as Skyrim, to say they could easily sell 10 million if they went back to the good old days is frankly naive.

I think ME3's success is somewhat doubtful. I think it could have sold several times more, and generated additional sales of the older ME, ME2, if it hadn't been for first the 'wait and see' attitude after DA2, plus then the ending scandal.

I don't think 10 mil sales is naive, for either a DA game or a ME game. But the execution has to be a lot more flawless, and it has to build upon a success of earlier flawless executions.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 20 avril 2012 - 07:35 .

[the_one_54321]

addiction21 wrote...
What I will not do is make knee jerk childish reactions like "I hate BioWare. I will never buy anything from them, pre-order anything or wait to buy a game till after user reviews are out" and then show up the day of the release with the game registered.

If you'll take note, there are actually posters that have no "II" or "3" beneath their forum avatar. It maybe the minority, but there are gamers that see something they know they won't really enjoy and actually don't buy it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Atakuma wrote...

The truth is Bioware never would have and probably never will sell as much as Skyrim, to say they could easily sell 10 million if they went back to the good old days is frankly naive.

If they're not going to sell 10 million copies, then the way to increase profits is it keep costs down.

Voicing and normal mapping everything is not the way to do that.

[Atakuma]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Both ME3 and ME2 were quite successful, DA2 was the exception. The truth is Bioware never would have and probably never will sell as much as Skyrim, to say they could easily sell 10 million if they went back to the good old days is frankly naive.

I think ME3's success is somewhat doubtful. I think it could have sold several times more, and generated additional sales of the older ME, ME2, if it hadn't been for first the 'wait and see' attitude after DA2, plus then the ending scandal.

I don't think 10 mil sales is naive, for either a DA game or a ME game. But the execution has to be a lot more flawless, and it has to build upon a success of earlier flawless executions.

To think that anything could achieve 10 million easily is naive to me. The vast majority of games don't sell anywhere near that much. I certainly think bioware could do better but frankly I think there's a limit on people who want to buy story based games compared to multiplayer shooters and sandbox hack and slashes.

[Spiritwolf1]

I think ME3 and DA2 were both great games and it catered exacctly to what I was looking for. Oblivion and Skyrim could never do that. They are to open a game. To me the who ME and DA world were like interactive movies where we got to make some of the choices and fight some of the fights. I like having a voice for my character. I like when all the SPC do not have monotonious voices as fillers. I like having companions to banter with as I wander. I like the romance aspect of them. This as a whole you really can not get elsewhere. I will buy DA3 and I will buy the next Mass Effect. Sure I did not like the ending of ME3 but thats like ten minutes of days of playing. I can live with it.

[addiction21]

Atakuma wrote...

Whoa, this mirrors my sentiments exactly.

Well its not the worse problem to have.

the_one_54321 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
What I will not do is make knee jerk childish reactions like "I hate BioWare. I will never buy anything from them, pre-order anything or wait to buy a game till after user reviews are out" and then show up the day of the release with the game registered.

If you'll take note, there are actually posters that have no "II" or "3" beneath their forum avatar. It maybe the minority, but there are gamers that see something they know they won't really enjoy and actually don't buy it.

And I understand that.  I would not have DA2 if it was not a gift but there is a little vocal group that loves to make those hollow threats (towards who I do not know) and then pop up on day one with the game.
Be upset about a game or what the company is doing. If you make those sort of statements then freaking stand by them.

[Fast Jimmy]

Atakuma wrote...

Both ME3 and ME2 were quite successful, DA2 was the exception. The truth is Bioware never would have and probably never will sell as much as Skyrim, to say they could easily sell 10 million if they went back to the good old days is frankly naive.

I'm not sure what you define as successful, but ME3, barely a month after it has been out, is selling on online retailers brand new for $29.99. While DAO is still selling at near it's full original price. Not to mention vendors like Amazon and others are giving full refunds after consumer complaints. 

It is suffering the same fate as DA2, but at a much more accepearated rate: pre-order sales over a million, then a disastrous drop in sales after the second week. 

People are off-loading it at an alarming rate, so much so that the ME team is saying in their tweets 'please don't sell your copies of ME3 a just wait to see what we have coming out on DLC!'

So, given its low post-release sales, it's disastrous effect (no pun intended) on EA's stock (especially after being named the Worst Company in America by The Consumerist) and Bioware's name in the Marketplace... I'd say it's a colossal failure, not anywhere near a success. 

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

People are off-loading it at an alarming rate, so much so that the ME team is saying in their tweets 'please don't sell your copies of ME3 a just wait to see what we have coming out on DLC!'

Wait... really?

[addiction21]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm not sure what you define as successful, but ME3, barely a month after it has been out, is selling on online retailers brand new for $29.99. While DAO is still selling at near it's full original price. Not to mention vendors like Amazon and others are giving full refunds after consumer complaints. 

http://www.amazon.co...8&condition=new
http://www.amazon.co...8&condition=new
http://www.amazon.co...8&condition=new

Its not hard to find new games for less shortly after their release.

Not to mention those vendors always have given refunds. It is just some new rhetoric.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Atakuma wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Both ME3 and ME2 were quite successful, DA2 was the exception. The truth is Bioware never would have and probably never will sell as much as Skyrim, to say they could easily sell 10 million if they went back to the good old days is frankly naive.

I think ME3's success is somewhat doubtful. I think it could have sold several times more, and generated additional sales of the older ME, ME2, if it hadn't been for first the 'wait and see' attitude after DA2, plus then the ending scandal.

I don't think 10 mil sales is naive, for either a DA game or a ME game. But the execution has to be a lot more flawless, and it has to build upon a success of earlier flawless executions.

To think that anything could achieve 10 million easily is naive to me. The vast majority of games don't sell anywhere near that much. I certainly think bioware could do better but frankly I think there's a limit on people who want to buy story based games compared to multiplayer shooters and sandbox hack and slashes.

Strange. This is one thing that You and I can agree. I thought I would never agree anything you write. Hahaha.

Then make a new IP based on multiplayer shooter and sandbox hack and slashes. I love sandbox games anyway. I'll buy anything that is sandbox with toolset. The only reason why I play BioWare games in the first place was toolset and Neverwinter Night's create-your-own-adventure campaign. I wasn't looking for BioWare great storytelling. I never think BioWare could tell good story. That's why I never play KoTOR, Jade Empire etc.. I don't even bother about ME 3. But then DAO prove how wrong I was. I love Morrigan's character and the Ultimate Sacrfice's plot. I never killed my character in such a dramatic way. Knock out Alistair with mod. Did the finishing blow and died in Alistair arm. The first non self-inserted character I get to love as much as I love my self inserted character in Neverwinter Night, all TES series and all classic D&D RPG like Forgotten Realms  I was looking for ATARI and Neverwinter Night 3 when I came across Dragon Age Origins. It's look like I'm not in the minority group who couldn't care less with story driven game.   

Since BioWare like to be "innovative", making a multplayer shooter or sandbox hack n slashes is a way to go. They have never done that before. It would please me greatly if they do so. There is no need to ruin DA franchise. You and I both know this kind of games sell. I just hope, they don't sacrifice companion's interaction though. Because that's the only thing I recognize as BioWare's strength. I wouldn't want great companion characters like Morrigan and future companions to perish under multiplayer shooter or sandbox hack n slash. 

[aries1001]

First, about the EA's stock value, stock value fluctuate wildly. Stock value is based on investors' expectations in getting their investments back - in a hurry, so to speak. That's why we see the pressure for companies like Bioware etc. to sell 1,5- 2 million games during the first month or so. It's like people on the boards of the companies that's on the stock exchange(stock market) haven't heard about the long tail; it's better to get a revenue from long-term return of investments (roi) than getting money from a quick fix. As for rpgs, and maybe especially Bioware' you'll need a loyal fanbase as exactly this: a base of fans that'll buy your games amlost no matter what. And secure yoi that 1,5-2 million games sold before you move onto the fans from other games. As for DA2 and ME3, I strongly feel that this has eroded the base of fans that Bioware needs too much. [This is just an intuitive feeling, I have no proof or statistics to back this up].

As for why and how both DA2 and ME3 were made, yes, there are similarities, but there are also differences. The ending to DA2 does make sense in the narrative within the text that is DA2. People might not like that particular ending, but it does make sense as the text (in DA2) sets the ending up throughout the game and foreshadows it clearly during the choices you make. In the course of ME3's ending (not discussing this, just giving info), the ending does not seem to make any sense at all within that particular text's (ME3) narrative.

People have complained about the rpg-elements being gone in ME2, and DA2, and also partly gone from ME3. But what constitutes or what are rpg elements anyway? Some people will say that rpg elements are being able to read lines of text and choosing the response you want, hence we don't like the dialogue wheel in DA2. And yet, when Obsidian first (I think?) did something similar for the dialogue in their game, Alpha Protocol, nobody, or a very dew seemed to mind. I actually happen to like the dialoge wheel as well as a voiced protagonist; have done so ever since playing Leliana's Song /dlc for DA: Origins/.

Other people think that rpg-elements involve fiddling around with inventories, stats, feats, skills, abilities and the big one - item customization. As for me, I don't like fiddling around with inventories too much. They're necessary, sure, but I don't need a lot of loot that I can't use to anything at all nor di I need 20 quest items cluttering up my inventory. I'm saying this, because I currently am playing through Shadows of Undrentide, NWN Expansion pack 1. And I can see how far along the rpg, especially the computer rpg have come since what the year 2001 or so. I actually like the journal in DA2 as well as the way the inventory works in DA2. And the junk loot and quest item systems as well.

As for stats, abilties and skills, I were - and are so happy - with how DA2 handles this. In both NWN, the first and DA: Origins, I felt there were way too many needless stats, abilities, feats and so on to choose from. It did nothing to confuse me as to what stat etc. I should choose. And for the item customization my only gribe with that was the fact that, as I grew stronger, the followers' armour didn't seem to grow any stronger. And that the robes for, say Merril didn't give her enough protection, e.g. armour class. Luckily, Bioware are working on changing this for DA3.

To talk about the combat in DA2 and ME2, I played the demo for ME2 and the whole DA2 game + Legacu, the first dlc. The exploding enemies that exploded when being has been confirmed by Mike Laidlaw to be a most illusive bug in the game, now corrected in a patch. The combat in ME2 and DA2 feels much more smooter and faster now - and people, the follower npcs, actually do what I tell them do, not doing what they want to do - in the game, that is.

To end, let me say this:
DA2 sold about 2 million games with a development time of say 1½-2 years, while DA:O sold about 4 million games with a development time of at least 5, if not closer to 7 or even 8 years. The return of investment, was much higher for DA2 than it was DA:O - and that's someting board members understand.

The final comment for now is this:
Oblivion, Skyrim, Witcher, Uncharted, Assasin's Creed are all games featuring a single protagonist. They also have fairly linear story when it comes to the main story of the game while sidequests are perhaps more interesting than the main story line. Also this: Witcher etc. does not have near the amount of loot that say ME3 or DA2 have. And Witcher 2 features Geralt who only sports 2 weapons, a leather jacket and maybe a amulet or two as welll as par of boots - perhaps. It is much more easy to develop armour, clothes etc. for the player character in Oblivion, Uncharted etc. than it is in DA2. (well, probably not Skyrim). However, in Skyrim, we don't have companions, npcs, on our team, like in DA2 and ME3. The same goes for Assasin's Creed and Witcher. If content are going to be cut, say to make more quests for us to enjoy, I'm one of those who actually would prefer (new) content over the abiliity to customize my follower npcs. However, I would like my follower npcs to update their armours and weapons themselves, just like it was done in NWN, the first and its expansions. (or being able to buy updated armour sets for them...)

So let me you this then:

Do you still want Bioware to make tactical party rpgs? Or do you want Bioware to move into the Uncharted territory where the Brotherhood of Assasin's go? e.g. a single protagonist with 1-2 fixed followers when Bioware decides they are needed because the story there going to tell. As for me personally, I wouldn't want that. Bioware seems to be one of the last, if not the last crpg developer that makes tactical and strategically party-based crpgs. And I, for my part, wouldn't want it any other way...

[coles4971]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

People are off-loading it at an alarming rate, so much so that the ME team is saying in their tweets 'please don't sell your copies of ME3 a just wait to see what we have coming out on DLC!'

Wait... really?

I think he's referring to the tweet Gamble made about "if you knew what we were doing you would hold on to your copy of ME3 forever" or something to that effect. So no, not "please don't sell your copies" at all.

[bEVEsthda]

the_one_54321 wrote...
If you'll take note, there are actually posters that have no "II" or "3" beneath their forum avatar. It maybe the minority, but there are gamers that see something they know they won't really enjoy and actually don't buy it.

Well, that doesn't have to mean much. I have only a DA2 symbol. However, I have all Bioware games since BG1, plus expansions, except Jade Empire and ME3. What is more, I have multiple copies. I have so many Baldur's Gate games that I actually don't know how many. Why? I played the first. Got totally over the moon, realized the CD's might get corrupt one day. Better get a reserve copy while it's availabe, right? So I did. Then I did the same with TotSC. Then the DVD version was released, so I had to have that too, Then I needed a copy to lend to friends so they could see what a great game it was. Then a game of the year version,... And so on, you get the picture.

The reason I only have the DA2 symbol is that it's the only one I've registered for this account. I see no need for anything more. But there are some reasons beyond being lazy, why I'm restrictive.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

People are off-loading it at an alarming rate, so much so that the ME team is saying in their tweets 'please don't sell your copies of ME3 a just wait to see what we have coming out on DLC!'

Wait... really?

Really, really. 


http://videogamewrit...customers-41956

I am unable to find the Twitter posts, as I don't have a Twitter account, but I have read the Tweets from links in the ME3 forum posts. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Blasted double post!

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 20 avril 2012 - 09:02 .

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I do think BioWare is now chasing a non-existent market with their unpolished hybrid adventure games (rather than the polished tactical roleplaying games they used to make), with the market they've abandoned now going unserved (with the exception of independent titles from Paradox and Spiderweb, or the aforementioned fan-funded projects). And BioWare's repeated claims that the market has changed ring quite hollow in the face of Skyrim's sales figures. Bethesda has been making fundamentally the same game for 18 years; the market can't have changed much.

Given how much Skyrim has sold compared to, say, Oblivion (and then compared to Morrowind), I think you can certainly make an argument that the market has changed quite dramatically.

And not get into the what is an RPG arguments, but I think the reasons why Skyrim is so succesful are exactly the reasons why a tactical, party-based RPG would have a very hard time touching even close to the same sales figure.

[bEVEsthda]

aries1001 wrote...
To end, let me say this:
DA2 sold about 2 million games with a development time of say 1½-2 years, while DA:O sold about 4 million games with a development time of at least 5, if not closer to 7 or even 8 years. The return of investment, was much higher for DA2 than it was DA:O - and that's someting board members understand.

But you're implying conclusions from that which are not valid.

1: DA2 sold in 2 mil, due to expectations from retailers' experience of DA:O. I believe it's now clear that DA2 failed to sell through 2 mil. Let's say close to 2 mil, doesn't matter so much.
Now, - did DA2 sell all those games? - No! DA:O sold the vast majority of those close to 2 mil copies of DA2.

So these sales represent a return of the investment in developing DA:O, not DA2!

2: Will the ~80% who where bitterly disappointed with DA2 buy a similar successor again? - No!

And therein lies DA3's biggest problem: How to market it? Because DA2 has killed the market. How is that a good return of investment?

Finally, you imply that DA:O, during development, cost the same amount of man-hours per year as DA2. We don't know that. But I think there are good reasons to believe otherwise. Also, since DA2 employed components developed during DA:O creation, DA2's full development time is actually longer than you take into account. And a proper successor to DA:O would have a similar, and in fact even greater advantage, since it would have had less changes.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 20 avril 2012 - 09:23 .