150 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

They don't replay games

Cannot imagine this.

Especially these days, where every other game released is a stagnant, horrific, mess on the floor that i wouldn't let my dog eat.

I spend more time on Dungeon Keeper and Jade Empire than i've ever spent on a "modern" RPG.

Jade Empire is a modern RPG.

And modern RPGs are awesome. These are the last couple of non-BioWare RPGs I've played recently and I think every one of them was worth it: Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Alpha Protocol, Legend of Grimrock, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Fallout: New Vegas, Kingdoms of Amalur, Dungeon Siege III, Torchlight, BioShock, Risen, Arcania: A Gothic Tale, and Fable III.

I'm currently looking forward to Diablo III, Guild Wars II, Risen 2, Diablo III, Darksiders II, Game of Thrones, and Diablo III. :happy:

The only RPG I've picked up that I thought was a 'stagnant, horrific mess' was Dungeons and Dragons: Daggerdale.

[Dejajeva]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

They don't replay games

Cannot imagine this.

Especially these days, where every other game released is a stagnant, horrific, mess on the floor that i wouldn't let my dog eat.

I spend more time on Dungeon Keeper and Jade Empire than i've ever spent on a "modern" RPG.

Jade Empire is a modern RPG.

And modern RPGs are awesome. These are the last couple of non-BioWare RPGs I've played recently and I think every one of them was worth it: Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Alpha Protocol, Legend of Grimrock, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Fallout: New Vegas, Kingdoms of Amalur, Dungeon Siege III, Torchlight, BioShock, Risen, Arcania: A Gothic Tale, and Fable III.

I'm currently looking forward to Diablo III, Guild Wars II, Risen 2, Diablo III, Darksiders II, Game of Thrones, and Diablo III. :happy:

The only RPG I've picked up that I thought was a 'stagnant, horrific mess' was Dungeons and Dragons: Daggerdale.

You have a fixed protag in the Witcher right? Can you play a girl in any of the other non-bioware RPG's you mentioned that are set in magical/medieval times like Dragon Age? With a character creator of some kind?

[Maria Caliban]

Dejajeva wrote...


You have a fixed protag in the Witcher right? Can you play a girl in any of the other non-bioware RPG's you mentioned that are set in magical/medieval times like Dragon Age? With a character creator of some kind?

The Witcher series has a fixed protagonist.

Skyrim: Fantasy series that has a very good face editor. You can be male or female and there are several races.

Kingdom of Amalur: Can be female. Two human races and two elves races. Basic character creator. There’s a demo on Steam and Origin.

Dungeon Siege III: Five predefined heroes, two of whom are women.

Torchlight: Three predefined heroes, one of whom is a woman.

Legend of Grimrock: Old-school indie dungeon crawler. You create a party of four and pick from a selection of portraits for your faces. Male and female, several races.

Fable III: Is fantasy but early industrial age. Can be female. Limited character creation and your character changes depending on morality and PC ability points.

Irony? Skyrim has the best face editor of all these games but is default first-person view.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 avril 2012 - 02:02 .

[Blastback]

Yrkoon wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I've never finished BG I and managed to finish BG 2 once, over a decade ago. I haven't played KotOR or Jade Empire since I first got them. I finished DA:O once and DA II once.

BioWare's games are my cup of tea but I don't 'still play them.' I play them once and move on.

What he said it about the exact opposite of what's accurate, other than that I consider them excellent games.

You.. you don't replay? Error does not compute. Error does not compute.

The vast majority of gamers are like that.  They don't replay games, and most don't even do a full  single playthrough.

I just don't get that at all.  The whole notion is completely alien to me.  To me, a good game is something that becomes a part of my entertainment life.  I  can play a truly good game for years.

In fact, generally speaking, I tend to enjoy  the second playthough far more than the first

I don't think I've gone a year since it came out without playing Baldur's Gate 2.  Doesn't mean I finish it, but I'll pop it in and start a new game

[Dejajeva]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...


You have a fixed protag in the Witcher right? Can you play a girl in any of the other non-bioware RPG's you mentioned that are set in magical/medieval times like Dragon Age? With a character creator of some kind?

The Witcher series has a fixed protagonist.

Skyrim: Fantasy series that has a very good face editor. You can be male or female and there are several races.

Kingdom of Amalur: Can be female. Two human races and two elves races. Basic character creator. There’s a demo on Steam and Origin.

Dungeon Siege III: Five predefined heroes, two of whom are women.

Torchlight: Three predefined heroes, one of whom is a woman.

Legend of Grimrock: Old-school indie dungeon crawler. You create a party of four and pick from a selection of portraits for your faces. Male and female, several races.

Fable III: Is fantasy but early industrial age. Can be female. Limited character creation and your character changes depending on morality and PC ability points.

Irony? Skyrim has the best face editor of all these games but is default first-person view.

Thank you. I think I'm going to download the Kingdom of Amalur demo tonight and play it tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions and information.

[Maria Caliban]

Blastback wrote...

You.. you don't replay? Error does not compute. Error does not compute.

Yrkoon wrote...

The vast majority of gamers are like that.  They don't replay games, and most don't even do a full  single playthrough.

I just don't get that at all.  The whole notion is completely alien to me.  To me, a good game is something that becomes a part of my entertainment life.  I  can play a truly good game for years.

In fact, generally speaking, I tend to enjoy  the second playthough far more than the first

We live in entertainment saturated cultures and I like novelty. If I have to choose between replaying a game I've already played through and starting a new one, I'll typically go for the new one. If I can't find a game, then I have a long list of books and DVDs I need to read/watch.

I recently replayed the Witcher 2 but I did that because a large chunk of it is different. I've managed to play all the games in the Prince of Persia trilogy twice but when I tried to replay Sands of Time a third time, I found that I'd memorized all the puzzles.

The unknown interests me more than the known. New problems mean I have to come up with new solutions.

What is it about replaying things that you like?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 avril 2012 - 03:09 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Blastback wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You have said yourself, Maria, that classic Bioware RPGs aren't really your normal cup of tea. But you still play them because they are exceptionally good games.

WTH? I've never said anything like this.

You've said you didn't care that much for the Baldur's Gate series.. or if that's not what you meant, you've given that impression.

I apologize for the absence in the thread I started, but yes, this is what I was referring to. classic Bioware = 1998 Bioware aka Baldur's Gate.

Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean it as an insult. Just a recollection of personal tastes (again, been away from the forums for over a month now).

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Blastback wrote...

You.. you don't replay? Error does not compute. Error does not compute.

Yrkoon wrote...

The vast majority of gamers are like that.  They don't replay games, and most don't even do a full  single playthrough.

I just don't get that at all.  The whole notion is completely alien to me.  To me, a good game is something that becomes a part of my entertainment life.  I  can play a truly good game for years.

In fact, generally speaking, I tend to enjoy  the second playthough far more than the first

We live in entertainment saturated cultures and I like novelty. If I have to choose between replaying a game I've already played through and starting a new one, I'll typically go for the new one. If I can't find a game, then I have a long list of books and DVDs I need to read/watch.

I recently replayed the Witcher 2 but I did that because a large chunk of it is different. I've managed to play all the games in the Prince of Persia trilogy twice but when I tried to replay Sands of Time a third time, I found that I'd memorized all the puzzles.

The unknown interests me more than the known. New problems mean I have to come up with new solutions.

What is it about replaying things that you like?

I can listen to a good joke once a year and still laugh. I can watch a movie I hadn't seen in a long time and still get an amazing feeling of excitement, despite knowing what things will happen.

But a game like Baldur's Gate? Or DA:O? Or Fallout (the original PC version, and to an extent New Vegas)? These types of games, with hundreds, if not thousands, of permutations to plot, dialogue and gameplay options... this is like reading your favorite book over, but having it turn out different! What's not to like about that?

That's the complaint many people have with DA2 and, to a much larger extent form what I've seen, ME3. The endings to these stories completely negate and ignore all previous choice and influence prior to it. I can watch a video of the endings of these games and not have any idea whatsoever about what choices or actions the player took throughout the game. But when you beat Fallout 2, you see how the choices you made in nearly every quest, character and city had a way of taking a life of their own, turning into an outcome that is either what you intended or, many times, what you completely did not expect.

That experience trumps any other form of media, in my book. And the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games took this one step further, by allowing choices in one game to not just affect the outcome of events in the game we were playing, but also in future installments!

Which is a true shame that DA2 minimalized many of the choices from DA:O and its DLC, and ME3 competely negates all choices in the entire trilogy, period. The most ambitious story telling mechanism of this generation of video games now lies at the alter of budgets and project deadlines. 

[In Exile]

Blastback wrote...
Well to be fair, I am in the Baldur's Gate 2 was the greatest game of all time camp, but hey, that's my opinion.  Sholuldn't have any bearing on what anyone else thinks.  

Which is totally a fair opinion. Completely wrong, but fair.

KotOR might be the closer game to Origins... 

That's what I think, anyway.

bEVEsthda wrote...

That you claim to believe these things, has long been wellknown to me. I've seen most of your posts and arguments on the matter.

I don't believe those things. But from where any of us arm chair CEOs are standing, they're as likely as any other.

Not that it's going to stop you from piloting your pet theory, I take it?

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The combat is fundamentally different, though.

In DAO, the player can control all of the party members simultaneously.

No, you can also do this in KoTOR.

In
KotOR (and this is top of my mind right nw because I'm playing NWN2,
which does the same thing) only one character can be controlled at a
time, with the other characters abandoning any previously given
instructions as soon as a different character is selected.

Not the way I play. It's pause/ability/unpause/switch/ability, so if we're talking how the game plays as our definitive characteristics, DA:O and KoTOR can be played the same.

KotOR plays more like Mass Effect or NWN - single character games - than it does like BG or DAO.

Even if that's true, everything else in KoTOR parallels the DA:O much closer than BG.

Brockololly wrote...
True. And it will be interesting to see
how some of these projects end up doing once they're released too. Just
the success of the Kickstarters for games like Wasteland 2 or the Banner
Saga or Shadowrun show that there is still a demand for those kind of
games.

I wonder if this will convince RPG fans that they're not some minority. I somehow doubt that.

Modifié par In Exile, 21 avril 2012 - 05:22 .

[the_one_54321]

Dejajeva wrote...
I figure I'm buying it once for myself and once for the "bitter hardcore rpger who hates DA2 and Bioware and thinks console gamers suck!" guy.

Well... as long as it's your money and not mine.... I guess I'll be over with the Kickstarter titles....
<_<

[Zanallen]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I've never finished BG I and managed to finish BG 2 once, over a decade ago. I haven't played KotOR or Jade Empire since I first got them. I finished DA:O once and DA II once.

BioWare's games are my cup of tea but I don't 'still play them.' I play them once and move on.

What he said it about the exact opposite of what's accurate, other than that I consider them excellent games.

Same here. I very rarely replay games.

[Imrahil_]

Maria Caliban wrote...
BioWare's games are my cup of tea but I don't 'still play them.' I play them once and move on.

This, if nothing else, sums up why I view you as an excellent barometer as to what is a Bad Game.  You want everything I don't in a cRPG game.  I appreciate having you around.

You're going to buy DA3, no questions asked.  If you like it, then I'll know I should hold off on buying it, maybe bargain bin it or buy it used. If you *love* DA3, then I will never buy it.

No offense meant, honestly, but you support everything I hate in "pseudo-RPG" games, to the point of turning cRPG's into Tomb Raider games with level-ups.  You epitomize the DA2 audience to me.  You are my canary in the coal mine.  I'll be watching for your reaction to DA3 to let me know whether or not to buy it.  If you like DA3, I won't buy it.  If you hate DA3, then it's probably a good game.

I look forward to you early-adopting it.  And commenting profusely.  It'll let me know if it's a good game or not.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 21 avril 2012 - 06:41 .

[Imrahil_]

Zanallen wrote...
Same here. I very rarely replay games.

This is kind of fascinating.  The most vocal DA2 supporters don't replay games.  I honestly don't know what to make of that, but it's incredibly interesting.

[Imrahil_]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I can listen to a good joke once a year and still laugh. I can watch a movie I hadn't seen in a long time and still get an amazing feeling of excitement, despite knowing what things will happen.

But a game like Baldur's Gate? Or DA:O? Or Fallout (the original PC version, and to an extent New Vegas)? These types of games, with hundreds, if not thousands, of permutations to plot, dialogue and gameplay options... this is like reading your favorite book over, but having it turn out different! What's not to like about that?

Totally agree.  I can watch a good movie over & over again.  I can watch a good TV show in syndication, even watching episodes I've seen before & enjoy them just as much as the original viewing.

Sometimes more if you catch a little throw-off joke that references something from a previous episode you didn't catch the first time around.  Or, even better, some foreshadowing that you didn't realize was important, but, having seen later episodes, you now appreciate even more.

I have no idea how many times I've played Baldur's Gate II.  It's probably an embarrassingly large number.  I've started a DA:O playthrough probably twice or maybe three times as many times as I've actually finished the game.  Similarly, I've read the entire Game of Thrones books 3 times, although, all 5 books weren't out all 3 times.  I've watched The Chappelle Show discs I have no idea how many times, but it's a lot.  I've watched The Wire 3 times all the way through.  I have watched Road House more times than I care to admit.

And I have never played DA2.  Not once.

Good games, movies, TV shows, can be enjoyed multiple times.  Video games even more so because you can generally play them a different way each time.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 21 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[FieryDove]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Same here. I very rarely replay games.

This is kind of fascinating.  The most vocal DA2 supporters don't replay games.  I honestly don't know what to make of that, but it's incredibly interesting.

Nearly 50% of gamers don't finish a game...ever.

There was a list of stats awhile back taken from xbox and pc that showed this trend. Not just BW games, all games. I don't understand it unless they didn't care for a game. Games are a luxury item and not free, if I buy it I plan to hopefully enjoy it for a very long time.

[the_one_54321]

I'd amend that statistic to state that nearly 50% of people that start video games never finish them.

Gamers finish games.

[Imrahil_]

FieryDove wrote...
Nearly 50% of gamers don't finish a game...ever 

I've seen that stat.  I think it's BS.  In my DA:O games, I probably started 3 games for every one I actually finished.  As a "hard-core fan", I only finished 1/3 of my games. I probably dragged that stat down, but I finished I'd say 7-8 times.  Without context, it'd look like I only finished 33% of the time, less than the average.

Like I said, I probably pulled their stats down.  But I played the game a poop-ton of times, for a poop-ton of hours.  And I bought every DA:O DLC except for Darkspawn Chronicles.  It's just plain a terrible metric to judge the game on.  And hey, 50% completion may be a high number!  If they don't tell what's an average completion rate, 50% sounds low, but what if 30% is normal?

They don't know.  They jumped the gun based on OMG 50% complete the game!!!  That may be an exceptionally high number for all we know.  It may be that no game has ever reached 50% completion - who knows?  They may have set a record for completion!  How would we know?  You need to know the completion rate for other games before you can make any sort of judgment on the DA:O completion rate.  Bioware is terrible at interpreting statistics.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 21 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[FieryDove]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I'd amend that statistic to state that nearly 50% of people that start video games never finish them.

Gamers finish games.

No I will not. They are still a gamer even if they don't finish a game, they paid for it.

They are still a gamer even if they bought the game on sale.

They are still a gamer if they play on PC, Mac or a Console. The list goes on.

[Maria Caliban]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
BioWare's games are my cup of tea but I don't 'still play them.' I play them once and move on.

This, if nothing else, sums up why I view you as an excellent barometer as to what is a Bad Game.  You want everything I don't in a cRPG game.  I appreciate having you around.

You're going to buy DA3, no questions asked.  If you like it, then I'll know I should hold off on buying it, maybe bargain bin it or buy it used. If you *love* DA3, then I will never buy it.

No offense meant, honestly, but you support everything I hate in "pseudo-RPG" games, to the point of turning cRPG's into Tomb Raider games with level-ups.  You epitomize the DA2 audience to me.  You are my canary in the coal mine.  I'll be watching for your reaction to DA3 to let me know whether or not to buy it.  If you like DA3, I won't buy it.  If you hate DA3, then it's probably a good game.

I look forward to you early-adopting it.  And commenting profusely.  It'll let me know if it's a good game or not.

That’s interesting. No, I’m not offended, but there are a few points to consider.

1. We both know I’m going to like DA 3. The question is how much.

2. Given that I like a wide variety of games and play lots of games, using me as a canary would likely result in you disliking the vast majority of modern RPGs. Your best hope would be that a game is so old, I’ve never played it. I may like the games you hate but I probably don’t hate the games you love.

What RPGs do you like?

3. Neither Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur, Legend of Grimrock, and Fallout: New Vegas fall into the ‘Tomb Raider with Level Ups’ category.

[Kronner]

Agreed with the OP. BioWare started to focus on gimmicks "kinect, button-awesome, ridiculous exploding enemies, omni-blade, falling down a level for no reason etc.) instead on their strengths - characters and gameworld. DA2 is a poor game that recycles very few areas and thus gets boring real fast. ME3 was obviously rushed. Too bad for BioWare, because they used to be great.

[bEVEsthda]

In Exile wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

That you claim to believe these things, has long been wellknown to me. I've seen most of your posts and arguments on the matter.

I don't believe those things. But from where any of us arm chair CEOs are standing, they're as likely as any other.

Not that it's going to stop you from piloting your pet theory, I take it?

I'm not sure I'm relieved by learning that you don't believe those things, but nevermind.
But as you seem to have guessed, I made that comment to help you. To spare you all the effort and time, typing up a load of various assertations.

[termokanden]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Same here. I very rarely replay games.

This is kind of fascinating.  The most vocal DA2 supporters don't replay games.  I honestly don't know what to make of that, but it's incredibly interesting.

Not hard to see what's going on here. If you are like me and you like replaying games, you're going to hate the massive amount of recycled areas in DA2. I really tried, but I could not make it past Act 2 on playthrough 2. I was actually already tired of the areas in Act 2 of the first. It's a shame because I think there are good things in DA2. But I can't forgive the endlessly recycled areas.

As posted above, it's about time BioWare remembers what they do best and focus a bit more on that.

That said, I still think ME3 is a good game. The SP campaign was thoroughly enjoyable for me, except for the ending. I don't think I've done my last playthrough yet.

Modifié par termokanden, 21 avril 2012 - 11:40 .

[Maria Caliban]

If you're like me and you don't replay games you're... also going to dislike the recycled areas.

Almost everyone agrees that the recycling of areas was excessive. It's hardly a divisive topic between those who like DA 2 and those who don't, or those who replay and those who don't.

[YohkoOhno]

Imrahil_ wrote...

I've seen that stat.  I think it's BS.  In my DA:O games, I probably started 3 games for every one I actually finished.  As a "hard-core fan", I only finished 1/3 of my games. I probably dragged that stat down, but I finished I'd say 7-8 times.  Without context, it'd look like I only finished 33% of the time, less than the average.

Like I said, I probably pulled their stats down.  But I played the game a poop-ton of times, for a poop-ton of hours.  And I bought every DA:O DLC except for Darkspawn Chronicles.  It's just plain a terrible metric to judge the game on.  And hey, 50% completion may be a high number!  If they don't tell what's an average completion rate, 50% sounds low, but what if 30% is normal?

They don't know.  They jumped the gun based on OMG 50% complete the game!!!  That may be an exceptionally high number for all we know.  It may be that no game has ever reached 50% completion - who knows?  They may have set a record for completion!  How would we know?  You need to know the completion rate for other games before you can make any sort of judgment on the DA:O completion rate.  Bioware is terrible at interpreting statistics.

I'm sure they are taking other factors into account, like reviewing EA's entire metrics for comparison, reviewing sales figures, doing formal polls, etc.

The one thing different about stats is, while there is room for interpretation, they don't lie.  Humans have been proven to lie to protect their interests.  They use hyperbole, they whine, they over-emphasize, they get emotional. Many think their opinions are the ones that matter.  I never believe people, for instance, who say they buy "5 copies" of the game because "It doesn't have DRM" or "They are doing what I want".  Er, what?  How many people actually are going to buy multiples of a game?

For instance, a discussion on the KoA: Reckoning forums brought up an interesting point--several forum goes whined that the game was "too easy", and they wanted an even harder mode--yet 2/3rds actually play the game on Easy!  So, which should that company listen to?  It's nice if you can specialize to different segments, but this is where the "vocal minority" argument has some merits.

For instance, I love the Witcher 2, but I look at the Global Acheivement stats on the Steam copies.  Only 49% get past Act I, and only 28% finish the game.  Something tells me this is why the game has half the sales DA2 got.

I agree you shouldn't solely focus on metrics.  BUT, you SHOULD use them to cut through the BS and figure out how people actually play your games, and use that to make improvements.

[bEVEsthda]

YohkoOhno wrote...
For instance, I love the Witcher 2, but I look at the Global Acheivement stats on the Steam copies.  Only 49% get past Act I, and only 28% finish the game.  Something tells me this is why the game has half the sales DA2 got.

I agree you shouldn't solely focus on metrics.  BUT, you SHOULD use them to cut through the BS and figure out how people actually play your games, and use that to make improvements.

But you have to have your wits about how that relates to exactly what is really your interest!
Your use of the TW2 example shows you've maybe already lost the hold on that.

It's quite possible to not finish a game and still think it's a great game, which you definitly will buy the successor to. It's not only possible, it's even so common it could be said to be a rule. I'd guess most of you in this forum can come up with a personal list.
The opposite is also true, finishing a game is no indication you liked the game (rather, it would hint it's short and easy, or that you had hopes it would improve). I finished DA2. Do I approve of it? Do I buy a successor? - H* NO!!!
I have not yet finished TW2, (not Skyrim either, for that part). Do I buy TW3? - H* YES!!!

So if you're going to consider finishing metrics, you first need an understanding how that, actually, really, relates to marketing the successor. By contrast, how radically changing the contents, under a label, affects the market is very well known. A long history shows that it always leads to a disaster.

And in this context, it would also be clever to relating percentages to others. And neither 49% nor 28% is bad at all.
And regarding sales, I haven't checked but I thought TW comfortably passed DA2, on the PC platform, and it's somewhat early to count in other platforms, right?

Finally, I can well see close to 100% finishing metrics be closely coupled to the publisher plummeting dramatically in sales, and being widely recognized as purveyor of excessively dumbed down and boring games.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 21 avril 2012 - 01:16 .