52 réponses à ce sujet

[deathwing200]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Actually Adam, Africa had a highly civilized culture. While Europeans were scratching lice through their furs and ripping the meat off of large spits in chilly, dark stone keeps the Africans were eating off gold plates with metal forks, spoons and knives. They had well established trade routes, and a highly regimented society. Their small cities dwarfed the largest of Europe's cities and were much cleaner.

ROFL

[valis123]

deathwing200 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Actually Adam, Africa had a highly civilized culture. While Europeans were scratching lice through their furs and ripping the meat off of large spits in chilly, dark stone keeps the Africans were eating off gold plates with metal forks, spoons and knives. They had well established trade routes, and a highly regimented society. Their small cities dwarfed the largest of Europe's cities and were much cleaner.

ROFL

I know, made my day too.

[Wolfva2]

Really? What, you think Africa was like they showed in the old Tarzan movies? Funny, the cradle of civilisation started in Africa, yet some people persist in believing that they never progressed above caveman. Guess you never heard of Egypt, Phoenicia, Mandun Karufa, etc. I am far from an Africa historian, but nonetheless.

[valis123]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Really? What, you think Africa was like they showed in the old Tarzan movies? Funny, the cradle of civilisation started in Africa, yet some people persist in believing that they never progressed above caveman. Guess you never heard of Egypt, Phoenicia, Mandun Karufa, etc. I am far from an Africa historian, but nonetheless.

I'm not saying it's like what they showed in Tarzan but it's preposterious to say European civilization is barbaric, uncivilized and what not when Europe wasn't. Tell me, do you even know about Rome, Greece and other European 'empires' ? cause Europe is mostly where everything originated from.

[Cuthlan]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Just to touch upon the 'black experience' of the elves for a moment...the elven situation also mirrors that of the Jews. After all, they were enslaved by Egypt (or so the story goes) and wandered the world afterwards awaiting a homeland. For that matter, it also touches upon the Irish who were basically enslaved by the English. In fact, one of the origens involves a human noble basically invoking prima noctae upon an Elvish bride, situations which occurred both to the Irish and the Scottish.

That's a very good point. Playing the City Elf origin, I was very much reminded of Irish history, both in Europe and for Irish immigrants in America.

[pathenry]

Pennoyer wrote...
What is the point of discussing real-world ethnicity in a fantasy rpg?

Because kids these days are brainwashed into drinking the cult of diversity kool-aid. They begin to see the world and everything in it through the nasty anti-white anti-American eyes of their professors. There are conspiracies lurking everywhere; white privlege is sneaky and pervasive throughout all cultural institutions. It is the divine quest of these (almost exclusively white) suburban commandos to right the wrongs of the evil oppressor overlords. They won't admit it, but at the root, they think minorities can't help themselves, and NEED them as their saviors.

But at least the OP was honest enough to admit that what he really wants is less white people. Cause it matters not if there are a variety of cultures represented (as in DA:O), since these people only count 'diversity' in the most superficial of terms (anything gay or not white).

But these same people don't squawk at all about 70% black NBA, NFL, etc.

[Curlain]

Well to be fair, though DA did great with the racism vs the elves it was not the first to take classic fantasy and cast elves (and other non-humans) as second class citizens facing severe racism and predjudice. The Witcher did a great job of showing elves in a very much 2nd class position and either living in gettos or having to join guerilla terrorist style groups to fight for survival, and this was in the early Witcher novels. So Bioware did a great job, but other authors have followed this idea as well

[Arathoriel]

Honestly this shouldnt be such a big deal. 
The idea that every game out there must have a member of every single ethnicity,sexuality etc is ridiculous.

The game developers designed the world based off of many high fantasy universes and tales, its obviously based on European societies from the accents, names etc.

Perhaps in the future they will expand the world further and have games set in lands with people of colour, but considering the current world is based on Europe it seems we are out of luck.

One possible reason for the european centrist ideals/characters in many games nowadays might be the fact that the majority of people buying these specific games are of european stock.

And yeah i know about China, Japan and South Korea also being big gaming hubs before somone slams me with that.

Just my two cents

[marshalleck]

valis123 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Really? What, you think Africa was like they showed in the old Tarzan movies? Funny, the cradle of civilisation started in Africa, yet some people persist in believing that they never progressed above caveman. Guess you never heard of Egypt, Phoenicia, Mandun Karufa, etc. I am far from an Africa historian, but nonetheless.

I'm not saying it's like what they showed in Tarzan but it's preposterious to say European civilization is barbaric, uncivilized and what not when Europe wasn't. Tell me, do you even know about Rome, Greece and other European 'empires' ? cause Europe is mostly where everything originated from.

 Have you never heard of the Gauls, the Celts, the Saxons? Europe is more than just the Mediterranean.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:18 .

[KilrB]

Cuthlan wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Just to touch upon the 'black experience' of the elves for a moment...the elven situation also mirrors that of the Jews. After all, they were enslaved by Egypt (or so the story goes) and wandered the world afterwards awaiting a homeland. For that matter, it also touches upon the Irish who were basically enslaved by the English. In fact, one of the origens involves a human noble basically invoking prima noctae upon an Elvish bride, situations which occurred both to the Irish and the Scottish.

That's a very good point. Playing the City Elf origin, I was very much reminded of Irish history, both in Europe and for Irish immigrants in America.

The situation of the city elves reminds me much more of the Jews in Europe.

Both their confinement to ghettos and their treatment.

[Kastlefeer]

On a bit of a different tack, well not really; I really enjoyed Morrigan's representation. Her irreligious views and strong individualist streak remind me of the struggle of modern athiests to come out of the closet so to speak. This game has a lot to offer There almost certainly is no maker lol ...

[Wolfva2]

valis123 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Really? What, you think Africa was like they showed in the old Tarzan movies? Funny, the cradle of civilisation started in Africa, yet some people persist in believing that they never progressed above caveman. Guess you never heard of Egypt, Phoenicia, Mandun Karufa, etc. I am far from an Africa historian, but nonetheless.

I'm not saying it's like what they showed in Tarzan but it's preposterious to say European civilization is barbaric, uncivilized and what not when Europe wasn't. Tell me, do you even know about Rome, Greece and other European 'empires' ? cause Europe is mostly where everything originated from.

I said it was, not is.  Past tense 4teh win.  Specifically at the time the Europeans started visiting Africa.  Historical facts 4tehwin as well.  Rome and Greece, btw, are not nor were considered European.  They were called 'Mediteranian nations' for a reason, and are more considered part of Asia Minor.   Nor is Europe where everything origenated from.  The Mesopatamian river valley, which is in Africa, is considered the origen point of humanity; people traveled to Europe FROM Asia Minor, where they went from Africa.  Since you're so familiar with GrecoRoman history (even if you think they're Europeans) you perhaps know that Rome traded with Africa for amyrinth, corn, ivory, etc.  They considered the 'Nubian' nations to be not as civilised as they perhaps, but still a force to be reckoned with.  So much so that Emperor Augustus made pacts with Egypt, a North African nation.  Of course, this is about 1200 years before the time I was talking about, but I probably should have specified that.  Then again, considering that at the time of the Roman empire Europe was literally fur clad barbarians (Gauls, Celts, Huns, etc) and I was speaking of when Europe was trading with Africa for slaves you could say it was a given. 

The world does not revolve around European history.  At the time of the Roman Empire there was also a powerful and advanced civilisation in China.  There were several in Africa of which Egypt is the most well known, the Phoenicians slightly less known.  England, France, Germany, Russia, Switzerland, etc (you know, the countries that actually DO make up Europe)  were not individual countries yet and consisted mostly of tribal people with little to no centralised government beyond that imparted by Roman rule.  Before you persist in insisting that Africa has always been a nation of dirt scrabbling villagers who never had a civilisation, it may behoove you to actually learn some history.

[Koralis]

marshalleck wrote...

valis123 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Really? What, you think Africa was like they showed in the old Tarzan movies? Funny, the cradle of civilisation started in Africa, yet some people persist in believing that they never progressed above caveman. Guess you never heard of Egypt, Phoenicia, Mandun Karufa, etc. I am far from an Africa historian, but nonetheless.

I'm not saying it's like what they showed in Tarzan but it's preposterious to say European civilization is barbaric, uncivilized and what not when Europe wasn't. Tell me, do you even know about Rome, Greece and other European 'empires' ? cause Europe is mostly where everything originated from.

 Have you never heard of the Gauls, the Celts, the Saxons? Europe is more than just the Mediterranean.

And africa is more than just egypt.  In fact, when you say africa people will tend to think mid/southern africa, not the mediteranian areas which had more developed cultures.

[Marvin TPA]

Strikes me as odd some of the assumptions about the European links that folk attach to Fereldan. Socially it felt very north american to me, as a Brit I only started feeling at home when I went underground. Felt right at home when I started a dwarf commoner run through.

Some very silly claims being made about civilisation as well. It is ridiculous to even comment let alone ROFL without a basic understanding of African history. Also China India and Korea made a few impressions on history whilst being outside the Med.

If people really don't want to read books, they can always play Civ. a couple of times.

Modifié par Marvin TPA, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:51 .

[Wolfva2]

I thought I made it clear Egypt was just one kingdom in Africa. I mentioned a few others as well, like the Mandun Karufa which was a Mandinken kingdom up till the 1800s or so. The point being, Africa was more advanced then Europe, especially during the dark ages/middle ages. Even more so after the Muslims took over Northern Africa. Africa is more then just sub Saharan Africa. I won't be held responsible for people who consider a continent larger then North America as just one section.

Modifié par Wolfva2, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:58 .

[valis123]

@ Marshallek : I can't mention every European civilization you know I was just giving some examples and the examples I gave happened to be all Meditereanean ones, sorry if you found that offensive.

And @  Wolfva2: You resulted to insulting? Oh my you're really so defensive about your African history, If you learn to read properly(Reading4teh win) you might want actually see that I don't deny that there was civilized empires in Africa, mainly the Egyptians, Nubians, Carthage etc.

As for Greece, Rome and what not being European, are you freaking serious? Go read or google on the internet and see for yourself that the content is European instead of insulting(Again reading for tehwin!), Asia Minor is actually Turkey. Are you so ignorant or yet stupid that you never actually heard of this in your school? what country are you from?

I've also never said that Europe is the centre of history or the universe for that matter, Egypt, China, Japan are all big cultures and empires which contributed alot to mankind I'm just pointing out that Europe was civilized as much as your dear Africa by that time. And yes Europe had barbarians which mirrored the African native tribes, Zulus etc. I've also never said that Africans are all dirt digging villagers, seriously get some glasses, do you think i'm stupid that i've never heard of Egyptians or the Pheonicans? I live in the Meditereanean for god's sake!

Modifié par valis123, 09 décembre 2009 - 03:10 .

[Kalcalan]

Wolfva2 wrote...
Rome and Greece, btw, are not nor were considered European.  They were called 'Mediteranian nations' for a reason, and are more considered part of Asia Minor.   Nor is Europe where everything origenated from.  The Mesopatamian river valley, which is in Africa, is considered the origen point of humanity; people traveled to Europe FROM Asia Minor, where they went from Africa.

Funny how anyone will post anything on the internet.

Not that it matters, but you should check your spelling and your facts. Your use of "from" is rather misleading as well.

Rome and Greece are in Europe. There can be no argument about that.

The cradle of civilization is Sumer, it is one of the oldest civilization as it goes back to more than 5,000 years BC. It was located in Mesopotamia. Check a map and you'll see that Mesopotamia is NOT in Africa. Actually this area is located in what is now Irak. If you start arguing that Irak is in Africa then there is nothing more to add.

Back on topic: there is a strong case for likening city elves to Jews as the alienage is in many ways similar to ghettos.

[Beechwell]

Marvin TPA wrote...

Strikes me as odd some of the assumptions about the European links that folk attach to Fereldan. Socially it felt very north american to me, as a Brit I only started feeling at home when I went underground. Felt right at home when I started a dwarf commoner run through.

Interesting. I never saw Ferelden as influenced by North American culture/history.
In what way do you see it as North American? The history of human invasion/settlemen?
I mostly thought it was supposed to be similar to England, with the bad food and bad weather and all. But I might be wrong.

[purplesunset]

First of all, someone who needs a "thank you" is Godheval for starting the first thread about race in DA which has an intelligent, mature original post. :two thumbs up:


(Although we shouldn't completely dismiss the previous threads for there is a lot of useful feedback for Bioware among the deluge of not-so-constructive posts)

Bioware is certainly a company that at least tries to be inclusive.To other companies, the thought seemingly never even enters their mind.

In this sense, Bioware is ahead of the pack, and rightfully deserves praise  for that.

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However, some of Godheval's praise for Bioware is a bit unfounded and premature. The OP is also giving Bioware some credit where it is not due. For Bioware has a ways to go. There is certainly room for improvement.

1.

Without flinching from the possibility of controversy, Bioware boldly modeled the Elves of Dragon Age after the American “black experience”

I think David Gaider, the lead writer, would be the first person to tell you that the elves are NOT based on blacks. Their experience mirrors that of the Jews in Europe more than anything else. And one of the reasons why David Gaider would say that the elves are not based on blacks would be to avoid potential controvery. And rightly so.

Unlike the OP, there are many people who would not view it as "inclusion" if the elves were based on the experience of American blacks before the 1960's. On the contrary, they would see it as racism itself and reliance on a lazy cliche regarding race relations between blacks and whites.

So David Gaider would rather divorce himself from that potential controversy by stating in no uncertain terms that the elves are NOT based on blacks.

2. Jade Empire has come up...again.  This game has the amazing ability to be used by both sides of the fence to support their argument.

Those who favor inclusion and diversity in video games view Jade Empire as a shining example of what could be.

Those who are against inclusion and view it as unneccesary "political correctness" in video games view Jade Empire as an example of a game where a racially homogeneous setting made more logical sense.

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That said, I certainly do agree with the idea of "inclusion without color." This is precisely why I argued against those who advocated a pallete swap for the skin color of family members during the origins stories.  A pallette swap would be the lazy way out, not to mention silly  considering the setting. Inclusion should focus on culture, not skin color.

Bioware created a setting where there are many different cultures but there is not much diversity within the individual cultures.  The resultant tension between islands (metaphorical islands, not geographic)  of homogenous cultures is one of the themes within DA's lore. If one of these cultures is Caucasian only, then that is what it is. That is not racism on Bioware's part.

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Moreover, there are no black people anywhere in Thedas; whether American black or African black. The Chasind might be dark-skinned, but if we look beyond skin color like this thread encourages us to, then we will see that the Chasind are more Amerindian than African. The Qunari are influenced by Arabic and specifically Muslim cultures.


As I said, I agree with the overall idea of "inclusion without color" and Bioware should be praised for their efforts in that regard. However,  in the case of Dragon Age, the inclusion did not exactly happen the way Godheval thinks it did.

Modifié par purplesunset, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:22 .

[Elizabeth Sterling]

And here opening this thread I thought this'd be a commentary on how Bioware sets the standard for fantasy RPGs and has been doing so since the infinity engine first rocked in to town.

Okay, nothing against the initial poster, the idea was good but what we have here now is a rather needlessly tempered race/history/geography debate. Consider me naive, you'd think I haven't been familiar with the internet for so many years.

Modifié par Elizabeth Sterling, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:13 .

[Marvin TPA]

Beechwell wrote...


Interesting. I never saw Ferelden as influenced by North American culture/history.
In what way do you see it as North American? The history of human invasion/settlemen?
I mostly thought it was supposed to be similar to England, with the bad food and bad weather and all. But I might be wrong.

Oh its the feel of the place. All the fierce independence and closeness to the land with nothing but your trusty dog at  your side and the maker at your back. The semi autonomous Banns and what not all operating as part of a greater nation.
The Landsmeet is very anglo-saxon and close to a Moot, but that was sadly only a brief glimmer of history. 
I suppose the biggest thing that doesn't feel very British is the whole chucking out of an occupying army. Britain over the years has been very tough to invade, but once the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, succeeded they were never kicked out. Instead everyone settled down to oppressing each other and history marched on.
Like I said though its very personal, its the feel of the place.

[RetrOldSchool]

pathenry wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...
What is the point of discussing real-world ethnicity in a fantasy rpg?

Because kids these days are brainwashed into drinking the cult of diversity kool-aid. They begin to see the world and everything in it through the nasty anti-white anti-American eyes of their professors. There are conspiracies lurking everywhere; white privlege is sneaky and pervasive throughout all cultural institutions. It is the divine quest of these (almost exclusively white) suburban commandos to right the wrongs of the evil oppressor overlords. They won't admit it, but at the root, they think minorities can't help themselves, and NEED them as their saviors.

But at least the OP was honest enough to admit that what he really wants is less white people. Cause it matters not if there are a variety of cultures represented (as in DA:O), since these people only count 'diversity' in the most superficial of terms (anything gay or not white).

But these same people don't squawk at all about 70% black NBA, NFL, etc.

I don't think the situation in NBA, NFL (majority of non-whites) or NHL (majority of whites) can be compared to gaming or even movies. It's sports and it's a situation where the players need to have interest in the sport, be willing to commit to the sport and have the required talent.
If as many non whites played as much hockey the % in hockey would probably be bigger and the other way around with basketball and american football.

Back to topic: When I read the article the view I get is that the OP is celebrating all kind of diversity in video games, be it gender, sexual prefences, ethincity or culture and I don't see anything wrong in creating games with more inclusion than todays standards. Same goes for other media.

The dalish situation does not (as many have already pointed out) have to be a referral to african american history but can be applied to a number of different historical and present injustices, which I see the OP also admits to and I cant think of anything bad with that?

A little both on and off topic: 

I think inclusion is important and (as the OP also states) inclusion is even more important when it shows a non-stereotypical image of, for example in DA:O's case, homosexuals/bisexuals (Zevran and Leiliana).

The reason I think inclusion is important is because if a person is constantly fed an image of how people are supposed/not supposed to be from birth, than it's a good chance the person lives up to it. Also inclusion (in the best way) can make people more tolerant and less prejudicial.

For instance: I have a son and a daughter and when we rent a Pixar movie it strikes me that the main character is never a female. In most children stories and cartoons the knight/space adventurer/data programmer/scientist/race car driver etc is a male. It's no wonder most girl wants to play with dolls, play cooking, dress up as princesses etc. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'll go out of my way to present all types of different female role models for her, be it space pilots or princesses, the power lies in the diversity.

The same way I will try to present different male rolemodels for my son, not only racecar drivers, fire fighters and knights.

[purplesunset]

pathenry wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...
What is the point of discussing real-world ethnicity in a fantasy rpg?

Because kids these days are brainwashed into drinking the cult of diversity kool-aid. They begin to see the world and everything in it through the nasty anti-white anti-American eyes of their professors. There are conspiracies lurking everywhere; white privlege is sneaky and pervasive throughout all cultural institutions. It is the divine quest of these (almost exclusively white) suburban commandos to right the wrongs of the evil oppressor overlords. They won't admit it, but at the root, they think minorities can't help themselves, and NEED them as their saviors.

But at least the OP was honest enough to admit that what he really wants is less white people. Cause it matters not if there are a variety of cultures represented (as in DA:O), since these people only count 'diversity' in the most superficial of terms (anything gay or not white).

But these same people don't squawk at all about 70% black NBA, NFL, etc.

You sound very much like a White Nationalist (click here)

There's nothing wrong with white pride. The rational white nationalists who present their views  in a calm,  thoughftul manner often make a lot more sense to me than crazy liberal extremists.

It's just that white nationalists confuse me.  They are very contradictory at times. The people who claim to only be pro-white, and claim to only want to preserve the white race, also include a lot of anti- X in their message.  Also some of the posts on that website are downright appaling, antagonistic, and directly incite war  and violence against another non-white race.  A few of the more rational white nationalists try to divorce themselves from these extremists, but they mostly make excuses for them along the lines of "well, they're just angry that their country is being destroyed by non-whites." I'm just confused.

Modifié par purplesunset, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:32 .

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try and keep this Dragon Age related, please.

[Gunny5821]

To the OP, KUDO's! It's not often that one comes across a good read such as what you wrote. The entire article comes full circle and I welcomed the read and the knowledge you presented.



Thanks ~~ Gunny