225 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth_Trethon]

Dendio1 wrote...

Stop caring about his race. Look beyond his skin color. That's all im asking. Judge his character and the decisions he makes, sure. But you should view him as a human and nothing more the same way you view Ash and Kaiden. Mass effect doesn't differentiate between race within race. People in this thread shouldn't either. Especially when considering a universe which is blind to such distinctions.

BioWare went to great efforts and far out of their way to disprove this with Jacob....they really did work hard at it and managed a good ammount of success. Do I differentiate based on race? No, I'd be all for shooting any cheater regardless.....a cheater is a cheater and can never be anything else.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

RShara wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

pfft crap character anyway almost as bad as Kaiden

How'd you feel if someone who didn't like Garrus came in and said that about Garrus?  Or if Bioware had decided Garrus found dextro/amino too icky and dumped Shepard?

Could care less, because the ending makes it all pointless

[Dendio1]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Stop caring about his race. Look beyond his skin color. That's all im asking. Judge his character and the decisions he makes, sure. But you should view him as a human and nothing more the same way you view Ash and Kaiden. Mass effect doesn't differentiate between race within race. People in this thread shouldn't either. Especially when considering a universe which is blind to such distinctions.

BioWare went to great efforts and far out of their way to disprove this with Jacob....they really did work hard at it and managed a good ammount of success. Do I differentiate based on race? No, I'd be all for shooting any cheater regardless.....a cheater is a cheater and can never be anything else.

What great efforts? What proof do you have of bioware going out of their way to separate jacob from the rest of humanity? The game states that race within race is a non-issue. Everyones got a little of everything inside them by 2185

Cheater is a cheater is fine. Calling jacob out by his skin color, and then applying personally fueled steriotypes is not. 

Modifié par Dendio1, 21 avril 2012 - 12:45 .

[RedTail F22]

Dendio1 wrote...

Get beyond the steriotypes. You limit your perspective by only viewing through such lens. Accept jacob as a human. Race within race isn't even an issue in mass effect. Jacob is a male human who found love elsewhere, while shepard isolated herself from the world. Its life. People move on. I was half expecting Liara and Feron got a little intimate during shepard two year recovery.

I understand that and I know Bioware probably didnt intend to make Jacob the cheater just because he's black. Its just that its one big coincidence that seems to pop up quite a bit in the media. So when you have that token black characters in a game(regardless of when or where that game takes place) its nice to see them not playing to some of the negative stereotypes surrounding black men today.

But I do understand where your coming from.

[RShara]

Dendio1 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

RShara wrote...

We don't know the terms of the relationship between ANYONE when Shepard gets taken by the Alliance. Token black guy cheats. Okay. What else is supposed to be read into it? There is a very obvious connection here.
Whether it's what BW intended or not, that's how many people perceive it.

Let's face it. All of the popular romances got satisfactory conclusions, and all of the subsidiaries got crap.

If BW wanted to be daring, they would have had one of the mainstream romances dump Shepard. Instead they chose the ones with the smallest bases to poop all over.

I'd also like to point out, I don't actually LIKE the Jacob romance. Not my cup of tea at all. But I will fight tooth and nail for those that DO, because they deserve the same treatment as the popular romances.

It's not even the subsidiary romances that got screwed over. I'd argue that Thane, Miranda and Jack were just as popular as Ash and Kaidan. But for some reason BioWare only seemed to put any effort into the ME1 cast. The entire ME2 cast that was so intricately written is just an afterthought.

 All of the ME2 cast were secondary in one way or another to the ME1 cast. We don't have data showing how much attention each love interest got, so its unfair to separate jacob's relationship importance with any other me2 relationships.

'tis very true, but Jacob fans (and Thane fans, but I'm trying not to derail) realy got it the worst.  At least the other romances got a little time to spend together, in romantic ways.

And I really don't like the realism argument.  If I were looking for realism, I'd go to a bar and see what's popping.  I'm looking for entertainment.  Entertainment doesn't usually involve getting dumped.
If BW (again) wanted to be daring and realistic, wouldn't one of the characters that had less in common with Shepard (physically, historically, personality) dump him or her?  I mean, Shepard can't even eat the same food as Garrus or Tali...
Look at the thread where someone wants to beat up Garrus to see the answer to what would happen.

[RShara]

DinoSteve wrote...

RShara wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

pfft crap character anyway almost as bad as Kaiden

How'd you feel if someone who didn't like Garrus came in and said that about Garrus?  Or if Bioware had decided Garrus found dextro/amino too icky and dumped Shepard?

Could care less, because the ending makes it all pointless

Yeh.  But they might fix the endings.  In which case it's just worse for Jacob fans.

[JerusPI]

Anyone find it interesting the Black dude is the one who cheats on Shep? and that Jacobs Dad once had a Harem?

[Twilight_Princess]

RShara wrote...

I'd also like to point out, I don't actually LIKE the Jacob romance. Not my cup of tea at all. But I will fight tooth and nail for those that DO, because they deserve the same treatment as the popular romances.

Too many people seem to only care that they got theirs. Even a THOUGHT exercise doesn't seem to make things click either

"Well, how would you feel if X got treated like Jacob?"

" It didn't happen so what's there to think about?"

 

Worse, they'll tell the fans of the mistreated LI's, to "deal with it" because they sucked as characters anyway...but lo and behold you'll spot a "blue children!" banner or "better ending for X!" in their sigs.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 21 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[RedTail F22]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

RShara wrote...

I'd also like to point out, I don't actually LIKE the Jacob romance. Not my cup of tea at all. But I will fight tooth and nail for those that DO, because they deserve the same treatment as the popular romances.

Too many people seem to only care that they got theirs. Even a THOUGHT exercise doesn't seem to make things click either

"Well, how would you feel if X got treated like Jacob?"

" It didn't happen so what's there to think about?"

 

Worse, they'll tell the fans of the mistraeted LI's, to "deal with it" because they sucked as characters anyway...but lo and behold you'll spot a "blue children!" banner or "better ending for X!" in their sigs.

I agree.

Im a guy and I'm not gay so I have no interest in Jacob as a LI. And in my first playthrough I really liked the way they handled his character. He was settling down and starting a family. It was nice.

But after seeing how it was the exact same for those who romanced him I was surprised and upset. Its crap what they did to him and I'm right there with you two in gettting his romance seriously fixed despite the fact he is not my LI.
 
I think more people should consider trying to see it from someone else's point of view.

[Dendio1]

RedTail F22 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Get beyond the steriotypes. You limit your perspective by only viewing through such lens. Accept jacob as a human. Race within race isn't even an issue in mass effect. Jacob is a male human who found love elsewhere, while shepard isolated herself from the world. Its life. People move on. I was half expecting Liara and Feron got a little intimate during shepard two year recovery.

I understand that and I know Bioware probably didnt intend to make Jacob the cheater just because he's black. Its just that its one big coincidence that seems to pop up quite a bit in the media. So when you have that token black characters in a game(regardless of when or where that game takes place) its nice to see them not playing to some of the negative stereotypes surrounding black men today.

But I do understand where your coming from.

I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from. I'm honestly wondering where this *only black people cheat* arguement is coming from. Everybody cheats....I mean seriously...everyone knows someone whos cheated at some point in their lives, race be damned.

Modifié par Dendio1, 21 avril 2012 - 12:55 .

[Mann42]

I think they kind of foreshadowed it in ME2, though. You have to come onto him, hard, and he even says he doesn't think of you that way when you first bring it up. The rest of the relationship progresses a lot like a fling; you barely talk, and when you do he concentrates on your appearance. Everything about it screams lust, from Shepard's 'in heat' voice and Jacob's the "priiiiiiiiiizzzzzeeeee" line. His dialogue right before the Omega-4 relay in Shepard's room really implies 'We're going to die soon, so lets enjoy ourselves.'

This all kind of implies that Shepard was more of a conquest than a long term relationship. 

In ME3, you discover how much he wanted kids, and with his whole father story arc, it kind of makes some psychological sense that he'd want his own kids so he could prove to himself he's a better person than his father. The whole thing with his dad haunts him, and like he says: Shepard's love is the Normandy. There's no way that Shepard would be pregnant right now with his kid, and having offspring seemed like the most important thing to him.   

Now, I'm not saying it's right, or that people that romanced Jacob were treated fairly by Jacob or the story, but I didn't think it was out of character at all for him. 

Modifié par nexworks, 21 avril 2012 - 12:58 .

[RShara]

Shepard's voice in the Jacob dialogues is really cringeworthy! It's one of the big reasons I could never do his romance. But he is also characterized as a "nice guy" with good intentions, who is trying to do better than what his father did. He also tells Shepard that he loves her (d'aawwww).
But then turns around (who knows if they broke up, or if Shepard just got arrested and taken away, or what?), and hooks up with another girl, and gets her preg, within 6 months.

It's really fast moving.

And as someone who's had a fling or so....I dunno...maybe it's me but 6 months is a really short time to even get over being "friends with benefits"

it's all in perspective, really.  But a lot of people took his dilaogue as wanting to build a serious relationship, and it's really sad that it was just flipped off like that

Modifié par RShara, 21 avril 2012 - 01:03 .

[Terraforming2154]

RedTail F22 wrote...
I agree.

Im a guy and I'm not gay so I have no interest in Jacob as a LI. And in my first playthrough I really liked the way they handled his character. He was settling down and starting a family. It was nice.

But after seeing how it was the exact same for those who romanced him I was surprised and upset. Its crap what they did to him and I'm right there with you two in gettting his romance seriously fixed despite the fact he is not my LI.
 
I think more people should consider trying to see it from someone else's point of view.

I agree as well. I thought it was fine because my Shepard didn't romance him, but I felt really bad watching the romance version on youtube. It was so damn lazy and insulting.

Same thing with Thane. I thought the prayer was nice, but at the back of my mind I was wondering if the conversation changed at all for a romanced Shepard. lo and behold..

[RedTail F22]

Dendio1 wrote...

RedTail F22 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Get beyond the steriotypes. You limit your perspective by only viewing through such lens. Accept jacob as a human. Race within race isn't even an issue in mass effect. Jacob is a male human who found love elsewhere, while shepard isolated herself from the world. Its life. People move on. I was half expecting Liara and Feron got a little intimate during shepard two year recovery.

I understand that and I know Bioware probably didnt intend to make Jacob the cheater just because he's black. Its just that its one big coincidence that seems to pop up quite a bit in the media. So when you have that token black characters in a game(regardless of when or where that game takes place) its nice to see them not playing to some of the negative stereotypes surrounding black men today.

But I do understand where your coming from.

I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from. I'm honestly wondering where this *only black people cheat* arguement is coming from. Everybody cheats....I mean seriously...everyone knows someone whos cheated at some point in their lives, race be damned.

No doubt. I think most people here understand that anyone is capable of cheating not just blacks. Its just the fact that in America at least Black guys get unfairly stereotyped as unable to maintain one relationship without having an affair. So the fact that Bioware, out of all the characters they have created, decides to make it the one black guy that does this.... well it raises some questions. Why did it have to be the one black guy? Why not Kaiden or Miranda? (Not suggesting this for those who had those 2 as LI, no one deserves that).

Maybe that helps explain it.

[grey_wind]

Dendio1 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

RShara wrote...

We don't know the terms of the relationship between ANYONE when Shepard gets taken by the Alliance. Token black guy cheats. Okay. What else is supposed to be read into it? There is a very obvious connection here.
Whether it's what BW intended or not, that's how many people perceive it.

Let's face it. All of the popular romances got satisfactory conclusions, and all of the subsidiaries got crap.

If BW wanted to be daring, they would have had one of the mainstream romances dump Shepard. Instead they chose the ones with the smallest bases to poop all over.

I'd also like to point out, I don't actually LIKE the Jacob romance. Not my cup of tea at all. But I will fight tooth and nail for those that DO, because they deserve the same treatment as the popular romances.

It's not even the subsidiary romances that got screwed over. I'd argue that Thane, Miranda and Jack were just as popular as Ash and Kaidan. But for some reason BioWare only seemed to put any effort into the ME1 cast. The entire ME2 cast that was so intricately written is just an afterthought.

 All of the ME2 cast were secondary in one way or another to the ME1 cast. We don't have data showing how much attention each love interest got, so its unfair to separate jacob's relationship importance with any other me2 relationships.

You're right. Sorry, I should have worded that better. 

[DocJill]

I love that someone cheated on Shepard for a change.

[RShara]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

RedTail F22 wrote...
I agree.

Im a guy and I'm not gay so I have no interest in Jacob as a LI. And in my first playthrough I really liked the way they handled his character. He was settling down and starting a family. It was nice.

But after seeing how it was the exact same for those who romanced him I was surprised and upset. Its crap what they did to him and I'm right there with you two in gettting his romance seriously fixed despite the fact he is not my LI.
 
I think more people should consider trying to see it from someone else's point of view.

I agree as well. I thought it was fine because my Shepard didn't romance him, but I felt really bad watching the romance version on youtube. It was so damn lazy and insulting.

Same thing with Thane. I thought the prayer was nice, but at the back of my mind I was wondering if the conversation changed at all for a romanced Shepard. lo and behold..

So much of this!

RedTail F22 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

RedTail F22 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Get beyond the steriotypes. You limit your perspective by only viewing through such lens. Accept jacob as a human. Race within race isn't even an issue in mass effect. Jacob is a male human who found love elsewhere, while shepard isolated herself from the world. Its life. People move on. I was half expecting Liara and Feron got a little intimate during shepard two year recovery.

I understand that and I know Bioware probably didnt intend to make Jacob the cheater just because he's black. Its just that its one big coincidence that seems to pop up quite a bit in the media. So when you have that token black characters in a game(regardless of when or where that game takes place) its nice to see them not playing to some of the negative stereotypes surrounding black men today.

But I do understand where your coming from.

I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from. I'm honestly wondering where this *only black people cheat* arguement is coming from. Everybody cheats....I mean seriously...everyone knows someone whos cheated at some point in their lives, race be damned.

No doubt. I think most people here understand that anyone is capable of cheating not just blacks. Its just the fact that in America at least Black guys get unfairly stereotyped as unable to maintain one relationship without having an affair. So the fact that Bioware, out of all the characters they have created, decides to make it the one black guy that does this.... well it raises some questions. Why did it have to be the one black guy? Why not Kaiden or Miranda? (Not suggesting this for those who had those 2 as LI, no one deserves that).

Maybe that helps explain it.

Thank you for explaining it better than I am capable of right now. This is totally what I was trying to get across!

[Mann42]

RShara wrote...

Shepard's voice in the Jacob dialogues is really cringeworthy! It's one of the big reasons I could never do his romance. But he is also characterized as a "nice guy" with good intentions, who is trying to do better than what his father did. He also tells Shepard that he loves her (d'aawwww).
But then turns around (who knows if they broke up, or if Shepard just got arrested and taken away, or what?), and hooks up with another girl, and gets her preg, within 6 months.

It's really fast moving.

And as someone who's had a fling or so....I dunno...maybe it's me but 6 months is a really short time to even get over being "friends with benefits"

it's all in perspective, really.  But a lot of people took his dilaogue as wanting to build a serious relationship, and it's really sad that it was just flipped off like that

Yeah, it is really hard to swallow. But I kind of excused it because what happened with Jacob's father is horrific and mentally scarring. It is impossible to understand what it would do to your head to see your father, after thinking he was dead for over a decade, finding out that he's been raping drugged up women and ruling like a king over his former crew mates the entire time.

I could see a nice guy, who's really self conscious about himself and has major daddy issues (which he obviously did and has more of now), suddenly get it in his head that he needs to have his own kids so he can prove that he's a better father. So he can prove definitively that he would never do that to his child. 

Jacob is messed up in the head after discovering his father again. If it makes those who romanced him feel any better, I don't think he really loves Brynn either. She just happened to be the prettiest girl around to help him through his daddy issues by helping him become a daddy.

Modifié par nexworks, 21 avril 2012 - 01:13 .

[PsyrenY]

Sparatus wrote...

I romanced Jacob.

Why? 

RShara wrote...
And if it had happened to a LI that you liked?  Can you imaging the rage if it had been Tali that had dumped Shepard for Kal'Reegar?????

Tali and Garrus romances were only possible in the first place due to popularity. Jacob has none, or so little as makes no difference. They just tossed him in as an option since he was a human squadmate, without giving him much of a personality to match.

[Zepheera]

Look at Jacob's track record. He joins and leaves the alliance when he became disillusioned with the bureaucracy, he joins Cerberus almost on a whim after ME: Galaxy, and then after a bit over two years, seems to easily give that up to latch onto Shepard (whether or not he's romanced). After a very short time, he drifts off to help the ex-scientists because he's "needed".

Jacob drifts, he's flighty, and he's needy. Based on his actions, if he's not getting the attention, or the recognition that he seems to think he deserves, or if things aren't being done the way he thinks they should, he will drop everything to try something else.

He doesn't seem to have a whole lot of loyalty or staying power for anything, and I can only imagine what will happen if Brynn and child ever don't seem to "need him" enough.

My biggest issue with Jacob's cheating on a romanced Shepard is that he doesn't tell her about it until she happened to stumble across him, and then tries to turn it into her fault.  People in the military are separated from their spouses for more than six months all the time, it's not all right for them to cheat, and it's not all right for him either.

Modifié par Zepheera, 21 avril 2012 - 01:23 .

[Zkyire]

RShara wrote...

Which is another bone to pick, since a lot of renegade Sheps would never have "surrendered" anything
And I'm pretty sure she was under house arrest, not supposed to talk to anyone. They grounded Shepard and took away the Normandy. Doesn't really sound like they were just watching her.

Both Paragon AND Renegade Shepard would have surrendered.

The only alternative to Shepard formally offering himself/herself to be "arrested" by the Alliance would mean outright WAR with the Batarians when he/she knows full well the Reapers are coming.

You can say what you want about how pissy and arrogant some players can be when they think "OMG HOW DARE THEY TRY TO ARREST ME I'LL KILL THEM ALL! NOBODY DISSES SHEP!" but Shepard has some prestablished traits. One of them: Shepard cares about his/her species. The second: he/she is not stupid and wont start a war because his/her pride is hurt.

Modifié par Zkyire, 21 avril 2012 - 01:21 .

[rpgfan321]

It is kind of disappointing to the fans who actually appreciated Jacob's romance plot, however, I have no angry qualms about him cheating on Shepard. Actually, it made sense to me. Jacob is really a nice guy, but, just like everyone else, has his own issues and personal "demons". I like the fact that Shepard, the PC, can be cheated upon this time, and that brings a bit of reality into the universe in my opinion.

Him saying that the Normandy is Shepard's real love really hit a spot because ... it's actually kind of true. Whether you romanced Jacob or other LIs, you really can't imagine Shepard without the Normandy. Shepard and the Normandy is one with the Mass Effect universe.

Plus with the end of the world coming, I imagine everyone is rushing to settle whatever dreams they have, and apparently having a family he never had is Jacob's dream. I think if such a thing were to happen in real life with someone you know, people would want best wishes for him, too.

[PsyrenY]

Zkyire wrote...

RShara wrote...

Which is another bone to pick, since a lot of renegade Sheps would never have "surrendered" anything
And I'm pretty sure she was under house arrest, not supposed to talk to anyone. They grounded Shepard and took away the Normandy. Doesn't really sound like they were just watching her.

Both Paragon AND Renegade Shepard would have surrendered.

The only alternative to Shepard formally offering himself/herself to be "arrested" by the Alliance would mean outright WAR with the Batarians when he/she knows full well the Reapers are coming.

You can say what you want about how pissy and arrogant some players can be when they think "OMG HOW DARE THEY TRY TO ARREST ME I'LL KILL THEM ALL! NOBODY DISSES SHEP!" but Shepard has some prestablished traits. One of them: Shepard cares about his/her species. The second: he/she is not stupid and wont start a war because his/her pride is hurt.

Not to undermine your point, but the Batarians only get mad at Shep if you do Arrival, which is optional.

[RedTail F22]

rpgfan321 wrote...


Him saying that the Normandy is Shepard's real love really hit a spot because ... it's actually kind of true.

Lol that was actually the one line I hated when I spoke to him. Imo the Normandy was Joker's real love. The Normandy crew was my Shepards real love aside from his actual LI.

I really wanted my Shepard to say something to that.

[RShara]

I know more than one person who would have taken the Normandy and either joined Cerberus for real, or started up their own mercenary group to fight the Reapers. Or been dragged kicking and screaming to Earth.