137 réponses à ce sujet

[nrcrane]

Is this where I sign up for club Jacob? Pretty sure it's somewhere around here on the internet...

[Auralius Carolus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

the_geo_law wrote...

Oh Tali, how I love you.

Wait, is Tali's unquestioning and unreserved support for Shepard in ME2 supposed to be admirable or something?

That support must be earned, the first time you meet her in me2 she doesnt joins you (maybe even saying that she cant really trust you yet, though unlike Ashley she doesnt acts like a **** about it), the 2nd time she does because she sees how far out shep was willing to go to assist her, you can still lose her support of Shep in me2 more than any other character in the game (by failing the loyalty mission, or picking legion in the conflict) only staying becuse she understands the importance of the mission so dont say that her support is unquestioning in me2 because its not.
If your shep betrays her she wont trust him and its one of the me2 characters that actually shows this in a reasonable manner, at least in me2.

?

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

The need to simplify coding, most likely. It was foreshadowed in ME2 that she may have a deep hidden attachment to Shepard as well as a growing zest for being free from the stress of commitment to the flotila.

She's actually one of the few "evolving" personalities in ME- she starts out shy and jumpy and slowly becomes more outgoing and aggressive as she becomes more tasked.

[Manton-X2]

nrcrane wrote...

Is this where I sign up for club Jacob? Pretty sure it's somewhere around here on the internet...

Hahaha ... I see.  You're that guy who always seems to have that extra large can of gasoline with him when the bonfires start.  

[Candoo]

TheColonel90 wrote...

This thread is asking for trouble.

(Takes out the popcorn and beer)

Does anybody want some?

Ha !!  I was thinking the same ...... never mind the in-game cat fights, this is MORE interesting. lol

[Iakus]

Bookman230 wrote...

But Talimancers and Liaramancers, count your lucky stars. Tali and Liara get their occassional flak, but Ash? You can't go through ONE page of Youtube comments in any video that features her without someone calling her a bigot or a b****, pretty much every BSN post slanders her, and even in a thead with her name in it, it devolves into a debate about Tali vs. Liara. Sigh. It's not easy, romancing Ashley.

QFT

Modifié par iakus, 21 avril 2012 - 04:56 .

[lmxar]

There is only one way to settle this argument. Clean room wrestling match between Liara and Tali.

I prefer Tali as the LI, but every ME1 character was AMAZINGLY written. Liara is awesome, and while Liaramancers and us Talimancers may not see eye to eye in this whole LI thing, I think a limited clothing wrestling match is something we can both agree on.

[Mathias]

Hey look! Another Ashley hate thread! This is new.

[Manton-X2]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

For the same reason that in real life mass murderers and rapists have friends who stand by them and stand up for them until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty.  It's loyalty for a reason.  It doesn't make it always right, but it is what it is.

With what they went through together and what Shepard accomplished.  With the friendship, loyalty and respect that Shepard earned (at least in my playthroughs); I should at least get the benefit of the doubt and allowed to explain myself.  Tali and everyone else give you that chance to explain (I dunno about Kaidan since he never makes it off Virmire for me); but not Ashley.

[Auralius Carolus]

iakus wrote...

Bookman230 wrote...

But Talimancers and Liaramancers, count your lucky stars. Tali and Liara get their occassional flak, but Ash? You can't go through ONE page of Youtube comments in any video that features her without someone calling her a bigot or a b****, pretty much every BSN post slanders her, and even in a thead with her name in it, it devolves into a debate about Tali vs. Liara. Sigh. It's not easy, romancing Ashley.

QFT

I wouldn't go so low as to call her a bigot, but she is a nag over Cerberus. I kinda wish they would have built her character up more, too, during ME2. I think that would have watered down the impression some people got of her.

[TheColonel90]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Hey look! Another Ashley hate thread! This is new.

True and true. You want some beer or popcorn? This thread is very original.

[justafan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

the_geo_law wrote...

Oh Tali, how I love you.

Wait, is Tali's unquestioning and unreserved support for Shepard in ME2 supposed to be admirable or something?

That support must be earned, the first time you meet her in me2 she doesnt joins you (maybe even saying that she cant really trust you yet, though unlike Ashley she doesnt acts like a **** about it), the 2nd time she does because she sees how far out shep was willing to go to assist her, you can still lose her support of Shep in me2 more than any other character in the game (by failing the loyalty mission, or picking legion in the conflict) only staying becuse she understands the importance of the mission so dont say that her support is unquestioning in me2 because its not.
If your shep betrays her she wont trust him and its one of the me2 characters that actually shows this in a reasonable manner, at least in me2.

?

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

Well, in the video, Tali only will say these things if she was Shep's LI.  Given the amount of trust developed in that romance, Tali's support for Shepard in this context is entirely understandable and adds to her character.

[I am KROGAN]

Olueq wrote...

Jestina wrote...

kookie28 wrote...
lolwhat.  I don't like Tali but Liara is easily the weakest character I've had the displeasure of talking to in Mass Effect.

Did you forget biotics and Shadow Broker? I guess it slipped your mind.

Tali was the MOST useful squadmate in ME1 so you probably just didnt know how to play. And Tali is also very important in the whole geth/quarian conflict. Quit crying and just accept that Tali is a good character.

As though you even needed any squadmates in ME1, even on insanity.  Lift/Singularity and the Spectre assault rifle with heat sinks = invincible.

None of the squaddies in ME1 were more or less useful than any of the others, cept ****ing Kaiden, I just really dislike him... Less so my 5th time through, but even then, least likeable out of all of them.

[kalasaurus]

I wish there were some kind of argument between Garrus and Kaidan

I made a love triangle on purpose for stuff like this. *sigh*

[Dendio1]

D4rkSektor wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

D4rkSektor wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Found it!

Liara owns Tali

Liara knows about Tali's uh.. personal time?

That is so awesome/creepy

I find it creepy, on the level of it was a mistake for you to become the shadow broker. I hate that she can play with people personal lifes and secrets like that and think shes being funny.

Agreed.

If it wasn't her it would be a random Yahg watching Tali jack off. Would you prefer that?
Especially since said Yahg already has a grudge against Tali to begin with.

No, but that doesn't make it any less creepy. It also doesn't mean that Liara can't just respect the privacy of her crewmates.

Hahahahaha. Complaining about the shadow broker not respecting privacy.

[Bantz]

cool, I've always wondered why Shep feels the need to introduce tali to whoever you bring along on that mission though. Seemed like an odd bit of dialog.

[Jog0907]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

the_geo_law wrote...

Oh Tali, how I love you.

Wait, is Tali's unquestioning and unreserved support for Shepard in ME2 supposed to be admirable or something?

That support must be earned, the first time you meet her in me2 she doesnt joins you (maybe even saying that she cant really trust you yet, though unlike Ashley she doesnt acts like a **** about it), the 2nd time she does because she sees how far out shep was willing to go to assist her, you can still lose her support of Shep in me2 more than any other character in the game (by failing the loyalty mission, or picking legion in the conflict) only staying becuse she understands the importance of the mission so dont say that her support is unquestioning in me2 because its not.
If your shep betrays her she wont trust him and its one of the me2 characters that actually shows this in a reasonable manner, at least in me2.

?

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

It does

You are assuming she has instant sticking with shep, but thats bull**** she always sticks were she thinks will be most useful (she rejects joining shep more than others, however shes more reasonable about it), thats why she refuses to join in early me2 but changes later on haestrom once she sees that his mission is important and needs help, thats why shes willing to stay even if her trust on shepard falters, because she knows the mission is important and thats why she goes to the fleet in me3 instead of going to shep the moment he escapes Earth.

She sticks to shep yes, but only if she knows she can help him and that she wont be needed more somewhere else, if she knows she will be more needed somewhere else she will go there first.

[Elite Midget]

Manton-X2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

For the same reason that in real life mass murderers and rapists have friends who stand by them and stand up for them until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty.  It's loyalty for a reason.  It doesn't make it always right, but it is what it is.

With what they went through together and what Shepard accomplished.  With the friendship, loyalty and respect that Shepard earned (at least in my playthroughs); I should at least get the benefit of the doubt and allowed to explain myself.  Tali and everyone else give you that chance to explain (I dunno about Kaidan since he never makes it off Virmire for me); but not Ashley.

Tali's loyalty was written in, there's no reason a person that was mean to Tali in ME1 and didn't do her side quests or even talked to her would have her full loyalty in ME2 and ME3. It was poor writing, they wanted Tali to worship Shepard like Liara does regardless of what you did or said.

[4stringwizard]

GundamHeavyarms wrote...

Miranda>Tali>Liara>Diana Allers>Ashley

Ranking Diana Allers above Ashley...now that just isn't fair!  

I admit it, I was one of the few who liked Ashley in ME1.  Sue me.  But I didn't like how they treated her in ME3, and her constant trust issues eventually got on my nerves.  


And even Liara's plot armor isn't enough to withstand Tali's awesomeness.  

[Manton-X2]

Elite Midget wrote...

Tali's loyalty was written in, there's no reason a person that was mean to Tali in ME1 and didn't do her side quests or even talked to her would have her full loyalty in ME2 and ME3. It was poor writing, they wanted Tali to worship Shepard like Liara does regardless of what you did or said.

Well, yea .. of course it's written in .. it's a game.  I can only speak from my experience.  Tali is loyal with me throughout the series.  So I don't know what she does if you treat her like crap.

Possibly poor writing, lack of resources/time to branch that kind of stuff out correctly or the writers understand that there are people in this world (hence, extrapolated to this galaxy) who see beyond our day to day personal stuff and see the big picture.  And to be honest, she does tend to get the big picture more than most.  Liara does too though at times she seems more conflicted by it.

*shrug*

[sammysoso]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Neat. What causes this reaction? I had Tali and Ashley at that sequence and they got along just fine (Ashley was my LI and I didn't have one in ME2).

Yea, I stayed loyal to Ash. And her and Tali got along swell during that mission.

You have to have chosen Tali over Ash and been mean about it on the Citadel. If you let Ash down easy there's a more civil exchange.

Interesting dialogue regardless.

[4stringwizard]

Manton-X2 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Tali's loyalty was written in, there's no reason a person that was mean to Tali in ME1 and didn't do her side quests or even talked to her would have her full loyalty in ME2 and ME3. It was poor writing, they wanted Tali to worship Shepard like Liara does regardless of what you did or said.

Well, yea .. of course it's written in .. it's a game.  I can only speak from my experience.  Tali is loyal with me throughout the series.  So I don't know what she does if you treat her like crap.

Possibly poor writing, lack of resources/time to branch that kind of stuff out correctly or the writers understand that there are people in this world (hence, extrapolated to this galaxy) who see beyond our day to day personal stuff and see the big picture.  And to be honest, she does tend to get the big picture more than most.  Liara does too though at times she seems more conflicted by it.

*shrug*

Let's see...Tali can become disloyal to Shepard in ME2 if you betray her and kills herself if Shepard betrays her in ME3.  Yeah, that just screams "worship"....to a moron.  


Liara on the other hand was an obsessive creep in ME3.  I would gladly have had Javik throw her out the airlock if given the chance. 

[comrade gando]

idk about you, but ashley better get some ice for that BURRNNNN

[Bookman230]

Manton-X2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

For the same reason that in real life mass murderers and rapists have friends who stand by them and stand up for them until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty.  It's loyalty for a reason.  It doesn't make it always right, but it is what it is.

With what they went through together and what Shepard accomplished.  With the friendship, loyalty and respect that Shepard earned (at least in my playthroughs); I should at least get the benefit of the doubt and allowed to explain myself.  Tali and everyone else give you that chance to explain (I dunno about Kaidan since he never makes it off Virmire for me); but not Ashley.

It's called logic. Tali's hero worship makes her susciptible to anything Shep says, especially in ME1 and early ME2. Same with Garrus; Shepard helped mold him into the Turian he is today. They can't see anything wrong with their hero.

Ash, in contrast, is a soldier. She has more experience than both of them when she first meets Shepard, so she isn't blinded by Shep's charisma. As a soldier, she has to ask the hard questions for the good of the Alliance, nay, the galaxy. While Tali, Garrus, hell, even Wrex(though he's not as filled in as the others) just ignore it, Ash actually has enough of a backbone to face the elephant in the room. Miranda says it herself; Cerberus was THIS close to installing a control chip in Shepard's head. This is the man who may have the support and love of aliens for saving the Citadel, the Rachni for saving their queen, and the leader of the Krogans as his bro. The amount of damage he could do to the galaxy is astromonical.

And if Shepard did get a control chip, I can gurantee that Garrus and Tali wouldn't notice, distracted by their hero worship and blind "loyalty". Ash would see through it, because she's the only one smart enough to see the risks. When Tali thinks Shepard is doing something wrong, she shoots herself rather than confront him and save her people. Garrus doesn't question Shepard at all. Ashley and Wrex? They stand up for what THEY think is right, and Shepard needs someone who can gun him down if he goes bad. And judging from the series, I don't think Garrus and Tali would be able to do it.

Ash would. She wouldn't do it lightly, and it would haunt her, but to save the galaxy she would do it without a second thought. And I need people who think for themselves, who fight for their morals, not grunts who blindly follow orders. Indoctrination is too much of a risk to be lenient.  And so I'd choose Ash over G+T anyday, no matter how much I love Team Dextro. Cause if Shep wa ever indoctrinated, we need someone to stop him.

[Jog0907]

Elite Midget wrote...

Manton-X2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

For the same reason that in real life mass murderers and rapists have friends who stand by them and stand up for them until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty.  It's loyalty for a reason.  It doesn't make it always right, but it is what it is.

With what they went through together and what Shepard accomplished.  With the friendship, loyalty and respect that Shepard earned (at least in my playthroughs); I should at least get the benefit of the doubt and allowed to explain myself.  Tali and everyone else give you that chance to explain (I dunno about Kaidan since he never makes it off Virmire for me); but not Ashley.

Tali's loyalty was written in, there's no reason a person that was mean to Tali in ME1 and didn't do her side quests or even talked to her would have her full loyalty in ME2 and ME3. It was poor writing, they wanted Tali to worship Shepard like Liara does regardless of what you did or said.

which is exactly the reason why me2 Tali is one of the characters than can most strongly disagree and question Shepards decisions, right?

Modifié par Jog0907, 21 avril 2012 - 05:18 .

[Manton-X2]

4stringwizard wrote...

Let's see...Tali can become disloyal to Shepard in ME2 if you betray her and kills herself if Shepard betrays her in ME3.  Yeah, that just screams "worship"....to a moron.  


Liara on the other hand was an obsessive creep in ME3.  I would gladly have had Javik throw her out the airlock if given the chance. 

What the hell are you talking about?  When does "loyalty"="worship"?  You make me want to throw a dictionary in your direction.

And Tali killing herself has nothing to do with loyalty to Shepard or worshipping him.  Her entire race is dead ... gone.  She kills herself because everything that she has lived and fought for from the moment you met her - the welfare of her people and the hope of regaining their homeland - is utterly gone.