137 réponses à ce sujet

[4stringwizard]

Manton-X2 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Let's see...Tali can become disloyal to Shepard in ME2 if you betray her and kills herself if Shepard betrays her in ME3.  Yeah, that just screams "worship"....to a moron.  


Liara on the other hand was an obsessive creep in ME3.  I would gladly have had Javik throw her out the airlock if given the chance. 

What the hell are you talking about?  When does "loyalty"="worship"?  You make me want to throw a dictionary in your direction.

And Tali killing herself has nothing to do with loyalty to Shepard or worshipping him.  Her entire race is dead ... gone.  She kills herself because everything that she has lived and fought for from the moment you met her - the welfare of her people and the hope of regaining their homeland - is utterly gone.

Actually that was supposed to be directed at the person you quoted.  Sorry for the mixup.  

[Manton-X2]

Bookman230 wrote...

Ash would. She wouldn't do it lightly, and it would haunt her, but to save the galaxy she would do it without a second thought. And I need people who think for themselves, who fight for their morals, not grunts who blindly follow orders. Indoctrination is too much of a risk to be lenient.  And so I'd choose Ash over G+T anyday, no matter how much I love Team Dextro. Cause if Shep wa ever indoctrinated, we need someone to stop him.

Good man, I like the way you analyze this and think it through.  I may not agree 100%, but well said.  I still tend to go more towards Ashley's inability to see beyond the Alliance and her small world combined with her Xenophobia as being a hindrance, I can also see how it can be an asset.  Still don't like her, would like to put a Spectre approved bullet in her but I can understand why you'd need that person around.

[Manton-X2]

4stringwizard wrote...
Actually that was supposed to be directed at the person you quoted.  Sorry for the mixup.  

Ah ... sarcasm.  -NOW- it makes more sense.  Had me worried there. 

[xefiroEA]

Bookman230 wrote...

Manton-X2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

For the same reason that in real life mass murderers and rapists have friends who stand by them and stand up for them until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty.  It's loyalty for a reason.  It doesn't make it always right, but it is what it is.

With what they went through together and what Shepard accomplished.  With the friendship, loyalty and respect that Shepard earned (at least in my playthroughs); I should at least get the benefit of the doubt and allowed to explain myself.  Tali and everyone else give you that chance to explain (I dunno about Kaidan since he never makes it off Virmire for me); but not Ashley.

It's called logic. Tali's hero worship makes her susciptible to anything Shep says, especially in ME1 and early ME2. Same with Garrus; Shepard helped mold him into the Turian he is today. They can't see anything wrong with their hero.

Ash, in contrast, is a soldier. She has more experience than both of them when she first meets Shepard, so she isn't blinded by Shep's charisma. As a soldier, she has to ask the hard questions for the good of the Alliance, nay, the galaxy. While Tali, Garrus, hell, even Wrex(though he's not as filled in as the others) just ignore it, Ash actually has enough of a backbone to face the elephant in the room. Miranda says it herself; Cerberus was THIS close to installing a control chip in Shepard's head. This is the man who may have the support and love of aliens for saving the Citadel, the Rachni for saving their queen, and the leader of the Krogans as his bro. The amount of damage he could do to the galaxy is astromonical.

And if Shepard did get a control chip, I can gurantee that Garrus and Tali wouldn't notice, distracted by their hero worship and blind "loyalty". Ash would see through it, because she's the only one smart enough to see the risks. When Tali thinks Shepard is doing something wrong, she shoots herself rather than confront him and save her people. Garrus doesn't question Shepard at all. Ashley and Wrex? They stand up for what THEY think is right, and Shepard needs someone who can gun him down if he goes bad. And judging from the series, I don't think Garrus and Tali would be able to do it.

Ash would. She wouldn't do it lightly, and it would haunt her, but to save the galaxy she would do it without a second thought. And I need people who think for themselves, who fight for their morals, not grunts who blindly follow orders. Indoctrination is too much of a risk to be lenient.  And so I'd choose Ash over G+T anyday, no matter how much I love Team Dextro. Cause if Shep wa ever indoctrinated, we need someone to stop him.

Yes. And Ashley is in an ideal position to do just that when she turns her back on Shepard and lets him go on his merry way after Horizon.

Wait....

[Bookman230]

Manton-X2 wrote...

Bookman230 wrote...

Ash would. She wouldn't do it lightly, and it would haunt her, but to save the galaxy she would do it without a second thought. And I need people who think for themselves, who fight for their morals, not grunts who blindly follow orders. Indoctrination is too much of a risk to be lenient.  And so I'd choose Ash over G+T anyday, no matter how much I love Team Dextro. Cause if Shep wa ever indoctrinated, we need someone to stop him.

Good man, I like the way you analyze this and think it through.  I may not agree 100%, but well said.  I still tend to go more towards Ashley's inability to see beyond the Alliance and her small world combined with her Xenophobia as being a hindrance, I can also see how it can be an asset.  Still don't like her, would like to put a Spectre approved bullet in her but I can understand why you'd need that person around.

And that's cool; we all have our opinions. It's ok to not like Ash. What annoys me is when people(and I don't mean you, specifically) act like there's no reason to like Ash at all, and that anyone who does is stupid and (sarcasm) can't see the light of the glorious Tali and Liara(sarcasm). What annoys me even more is when right after calling Ash b**** or bigot or wh*** or sl**, they jump down the throats of anyone who says a single word against Tali and Liara. Again, I'm not referring to you, but there's plenty of people who do do that.

[comrade gando]

bookman's right. Burning other people for liking a different LI isn't right. different strokes different folks and all that. I recall bioware saying at one point there really is no canon to this game, it's all up to the player to decide.

and come to think of it that is what makes an ending like this especially painful, when they just yank control from the player at the last second, then troll us with "oh you do have a choice...between 3 colors of death". off topic tho. I like tali

[Jog0907]

Bookman230 wrote...

Manton-X2 wrote...

Bookman230 wrote...

Ash would. She wouldn't do it lightly, and it would haunt her, but to save the galaxy she would do it without a second thought. And I need people who think for themselves, who fight for their morals, not grunts who blindly follow orders. Indoctrination is too much of a risk to be lenient.  And so I'd choose Ash over G+T anyday, no matter how much I love Team Dextro. Cause if Shep wa ever indoctrinated, we need someone to stop him.

Good man, I like the way you analyze this and think it through.  I may not agree 100%, but well said.  I still tend to go more towards Ashley's inability to see beyond the Alliance and her small world combined with her Xenophobia as being a hindrance, I can also see how it can be an asset.  Still don't like her, would like to put a Spectre approved bullet in her but I can understand why you'd need that person around.

And that's cool; we all have our opinions. It's ok to not like Ash. What annoys me is when people(and I don't mean you, specifically) act like there's no reason to like Ash at all, and that anyone who does is stupid and (sarcasm) can't see the light of the glorious Tali and Liara(sarcasm). What annoys me even more is when right after calling Ash b**** or bigot or wh*** or sl**, they jump down the throats of anyone who says a single word against Tali and Liara. Again, I'm not referring to you, but there's plenty of people who do do that.

I see your point and Ashley hatred can get quite insane.

Modifié par Jog0907, 21 avril 2012 - 05:34 .

[Bookman230]

xefiroEA wrote...

Bookman230 wrote...

Manton-X2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of that rationalizes Tali's instant trust for Shepard... or her slavish sticking with Shepard no matter what context or actions occur. Including choices that lose her loyalty, which is really more akin to 'focus' than actual loyalty.

For the same reason that in real life mass murderers and rapists have friends who stand by them and stand up for them until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty.  It's loyalty for a reason.  It doesn't make it always right, but it is what it is.

With what they went through together and what Shepard accomplished.  With the friendship, loyalty and respect that Shepard earned (at least in my playthroughs); I should at least get the benefit of the doubt and allowed to explain myself.  Tali and everyone else give you that chance to explain (I dunno about Kaidan since he never makes it off Virmire for me); but not Ashley.

It's called logic. Tali's hero worship makes her susciptible to anything Shep says, especially in ME1 and early ME2. Same with Garrus; Shepard helped mold him into the Turian he is today. They can't see anything wrong with their hero.

Ash, in contrast, is a soldier. She has more experience than both of them when she first meets Shepard, so she isn't blinded by Shep's charisma. As a soldier, she has to ask the hard questions for the good of the Alliance, nay, the galaxy. While Tali, Garrus, hell, even Wrex(though he's not as filled in as the others) just ignore it, Ash actually has enough of a backbone to face the elephant in the room. Miranda says it herself; Cerberus was THIS close to installing a control chip in Shepard's head. This is the man who may have the support and love of aliens for saving the Citadel, the Rachni for saving their queen, and the leader of the Krogans as his bro. The amount of damage he could do to the galaxy is astromonical.

And if Shepard did get a control chip, I can gurantee that Garrus and Tali wouldn't notice, distracted by their hero worship and blind "loyalty". Ash would see through it, because she's the only one smart enough to see the risks. When Tali thinks Shepard is doing something wrong, she shoots herself rather than confront him and save her people. Garrus doesn't question Shepard at all. Ashley and Wrex? They stand up for what THEY think is right, and Shepard needs someone who can gun him down if he goes bad. And judging from the series, I don't think Garrus and Tali would be able to do it.

Ash would. She wouldn't do it lightly, and it would haunt her, but to save the galaxy she would do it without a second thought. And I need people who think for themselves, who fight for their morals, not grunts who blindly follow orders. Indoctrination is too much of a risk to be lenient.  And so I'd choose Ash over G+T anyday, no matter how much I love Team Dextro. Cause if Shep wa ever indoctrinated, we need someone to stop him.

Yes. And Ashley is in an ideal position to do just that when she turns her back on Shepard and lets him go on his merry way after Horizon.

Wait....

To be fair, he did just save Horizon and her, and she's not heartless. At the moment, he's not directly theatening someone. In ME3 though, there;s a Cerberus attack, Shepard just came from an elevator where Cerberus was coming from, and came out guns drawn, pointed at the Council. This is even worse if the Salarian Councilor died and Udina fabricates some evidence. It's a minefield there. She'd be stupid to not be cautious. The universe needs it's leaders and she's doing her duty. She show the kind of trust that I can get behind; not blind trust, but instead reasonable trust, letting Shepard's logic sway her instead of her emotions. She questions Shep, but if he can explain himself she follows her lead. That's a good soldier.

[xefiroEA]

That is reasonable. I actually understood the situation then.

But Horizon and Mars are ridiculous. In Horizon you tell her "I was in a coma for two years, Cerberus fixed me," and what she gets from that is "I work with Cerberus," not "I was in a coma for two years." Aside from the fact that she still thinks Cerberus is working with the Collectors after you saved the Colony from the Collectors.

In Mars she's at your side when Hacket tells you to go to Mars, and when you arrive and find Cerberus troops, she asks you if you had something to do. She was right there! You've been in a complete blackout for five months! She should be aware of these things. There's wary and there's paranoid. Besides, if you were involved, is she expecting for you to confess?

And in the end, for all her concern, she was unable to sniff out the real Cerberus plant (Udina) despite having been working closely with him for a while. So I'm not so sure that she's that good a judge of character to tell if Shep has a control chip.

Modifié par xefiroEA, 21 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[SNascimento]

Tali didn't join Shepard at first in ME2... right?

[Bookman230]

xefiroEA wrote...

That is reasonable. I actually understood the situation then.

But Horizon and Mars are ridiculous. In Horizon you tell her "I was in a coma for two years, Cerberus fixed me," and what she gets from that is "I work with Cerberus," not "I was in a coma for two years." Aside from the fact that she still thinks Cerberus is working with the Collectors after you saved the Colony from the Collectors.

In Mars she's at your side when Hacket tells you to go to Mars, and when you arrive and find Cerberus troops, she asks you if you had something to do. She was right there! You've been in a complete blackout for five months! She should be aware of these things. There's wary and there's paranoid. Besides, if you were involved, is she expecting for you to confess?

And in the end, for all her concern, she was unable to sniff out the real Cerberus plant (Udina) despite having been working closely with him for a while. So I'm not so sure that she's that good a judge of character to tell if Shep has a control chip.

Horizon's writing overall was poor. Shep's defenses were weak. There's no "I'm just using them till I stop the Collectors, then I'm dumping their asses like my prom date". It's, "Cerberus has changed!" or "Cerberus are the only ones doing something!" You sound pretty set on being with Cerberus. I don;t blame Ash, I blame the writers.

Mars, I can see your point. I chalk it up to suspicsion of cheating(if you romanced her) and leftover hostility from Horizon. Neither of you get any closure in ME2; you can't call her before the Omega 4 relay for example. That lets bad feelings bubble. That, and Bioware needed to set up the path for reconciliation; if Ash already trusts you again, then what was the point of the plotline?

To be fair, nobody does, including the other Council members and ESPECIALLY Bailey, who just lets the whole "setting him up to kill the Executor" thing just lying down instead of investigating. Udina seemed to do a complete 180; less of a jackass. He's geniunely concerned about Earth. Plus, Udina seems like the solitary type; I doubt either Shep or Ash could really claim they know him. She doesn't know Udina like she knows Shepard; Udina's a jerk boss, Shepard is at least railroaded into being a close friend(or more) of hers. How should she know when Udina's acting different?

[Tom Lehrer]

xefiroEA wrote...

That is reasonable. I actually understood the situation then.

But Horizon and Mars are ridiculous. In Horizon you tell her "I was in a coma for two years, Cerberus fixed me," and what she gets from that is "I work with Cerberus," not "I was in a coma for two years." Aside from the fact that she still thinks Cerberus is working with the Collectors after you saved the Colony from the Collectors.

In Mars she's at your side when Hacket tells you to go to Mars, and when you arrive and find Cerberus troops, she asks you if you had something to do. She was right there! You've been in a complete blackout for five months! She should be aware of these things. There's wary and there's paranoid. Besides, if you were involved, is she expecting for you to confess?

And in the end, for all her concern, she was unable to sniff out the real Cerberus plant (Udina) despite having been working closely with him for a while. So I'm not so sure that she's that good a judge of character to tell if Shep has a control chip.

On Horizon Shepard was gone for two years and TIM had been telling the galaxy he was working for them. I also take it you did not read her email after the mission?

Where does Ashley ask if you are working for them on Mars? She asks if Shepard knows why they are there but I dont recall her thinking he still worked for them at the time.

[Iakus]

[quote]xefiroEA wrote...

That is reasonable. I actually understood the situation then.

But Horizon and Mars are ridiculous. In Horizon you tell her "I was in a coma for two years, Cerberus fixed me," and what she gets from that is "I work with Cerberus," not "I was in a coma for two years." Aside from the fact that she still thinks Cerberus is working with the Collectors after you saved the Colony from the Collectors.[/quote]

Hated the writing on Horizon.

{quote]
In Mars she's at your side when Hacket tells you to go to Mars, and when you arrive and find Cerberus troops, she asks you if you had something to do. She was right there! You've been in a complete blackout for five months! She should be aware of these things. There's wary and there's paranoid. Besides, if you were involved, is she expecting for you to confess?[/quote]

No, she asks if you knew why they'd be there.  Not if you were involved in it.  She also backs down and apologizes when James says you were under constant observation and had no contact with Cerberus.

In addition, when you encounter the huskified trooper, she points out the cybernetics and tells you this is what she's worried about with Shepard.  That Shep is either 

A) Not really "Shepard" but some kind of cyborg Terminator wearing Shepard's face or
Shepard, but being controlled through his/her cybernetics, possibly unknowingly.

Neither of these explanations is particular distrust in Shepard, but fear that Shepard has been remade somehow by Cerberus.  GIven the existence of control chips and indoctrination, plus Cerberus' propenisty for mad science, can you honestly say those are not legitimate fears?

[quote]
And in the end, for all her concern, she was unable to sniff out the real Cerberus plant (Udina) despite having been working closely with him for a while. So I'm not so sure that she's that good a judge of character to tell if Shep has a control chip.[/quote]

Umm, Ash spent virtually the entire stay at the Citadel in the hospital.  She'd been working with Anderson before that, not Udina.

And if you're actually nice to her and take a little effort to show you're still you, she turns her gun on Udina and even shoot him if you don't shoot first.  Heck in my case she never accused Shepard of anything, she said "What's going on?" expressing more confusion than anger or distrust.

[xefiroEA]

@Bookman230
I understand there's quite a few problems with how the games set up some situations. They wanted Liara and Ash/Kaidan in ME3, which meant they couldn't die, which meant they couldn't be in the suicide mission.

One might not like Liara's reason for not being at your side, but when you learn you're only alive because she went up against the Shadow Broker to get you back, it's hard to stay mad at her.

But Kai/Ash have lousy dialogue, and I have to take my cues for the character from how they're written. I can't say "The character is fine, it's just the writing that's messed up." Yes, I wish they had done more with the characters in ME2, and that their motivations were better explored and we didn't completely ignore what we understand to be a close friend. But they didn't, so Kai/Ash isn't the character we would have liked them to be.

@Tom Lehrer
I must have read her email, though I can't say I remember what it said now. I remember the conversation we had, since it impacted me more deeply. 

As for the information everyone has of you working for Cerby, it always bothered me how obvious it was that the information was released by moles in the Alliance but you're not allowed to point it out and try to track the leak down. It's also interesting that no one ever says what they saw you doing with Cerberus, or what you working for Cerberus means. And when you go to talk to the Council, Anderson won't take you back either.

I thought the logical conclusion if I know why they're in Mars is that I still have some ties to the organization. She's not asking Vega if he knows why Cerberus is there. She asks the person she suspects might be involved. And mentions how 'convenient' it is. I thought the implication was clear. And I think once you enter the base she says something to the effect that she needs you to come clean to her and make it clear if you're working for them. It's probably up on youtube. Kind of late here and I'm sleepy or I'd look it up.

Modifié par xefiroEA, 21 avril 2012 - 06:29 .

[Greed1914]

That was pretty great. Tali utterly torched Ashley.

[pro5]

the_geo_law wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Neat. What causes this reaction? I had Tali and Ashley at that sequence and they got along just fine (Ashley was my LI and I didn't have one in ME2).

Ashley as LI in one, Tali as LI in 2.
Ashley recruited obviously.
Tali alive from ME2.
Bring Tali and Ash along
for Geth Dreadnaught mission.

Nope, I did all that and got catfight version 1 instead (much less tense).

My guess is you have to try to keep *both* relationships in ME3. When Ash asks Shepard in the hospital "What about us?" - tell her you still love her and want her around (I chose to stay faithful to Tali). And when Tali comes around, tell her the same thing. 

Or possibly choose Ash in ME3 over Tali - I didn't try that.

Modifié par pro5, 21 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[sammysoso]

Bookman230 wrote...

 As much as I love Ash, I must agree that Tali owned her.

But Talimancers and Liaramancers, count your lucky stars. Tali and Liara get their occassional flak, but Ash? You can't go through ONE page of Youtube comments in any video that features her without someone calling her a bigot or a b****, pretty much every BSN post slanders her, and even in a thead with her name in it, it devolves into a debate about Tali vs. Liara. Sigh. It's not easy, romancing Ashley.

It's really obnoxious, anytime you bring up Ashley anywhere pretty soon you get the "RAAARGH RACIST B*TCH RAAAAARGH."

Kinda funny for fans of a game series that's all about celebrating differences in people and looking beyong the surface/first impression.

[TheJester000]

Tali?...Ashley??.....Liara???.......I got one word to end that debate...... JACK.

[kegNeggs]

DinoSteve wrote...

well the word starts wit a B*


kinda miss the old sweet Tali from ME1 though, she had the cutest voice

Im sure you meant something along these lines? www.youtube.com/watch

haha, anyway pwnd, ashley, pwnd

[Applepie_Svk]

Olueq wrote...

Tali was the MOST useful squadmate in ME1 so you probably just didnt know how to play. And Tali is also very important in the whole geth/quarian conflict. Quit crying and just accept that Tali is a good character.

Most usefull ine ME1 was character which have more specializations, like Wrex, Liara, etc... etc But my most used setup was Liara and someone else Tali, Wrex, Garrus ... I used her much more in ME2 because there she was realy usefull.

[GuardianAngel470]

This thread will end in tears, I just know it.

[Hicks233]

Liara on the other hand was an obsessive creep in ME3.  I would gladly have had Javik throw her out the airlock if given the chance. 

Nah, have Ash/Kaiden put a round in Liara's head then chuck her out the airlock.

Then get Miranda back in her office.

...Profit

...with space hamster as the new more cuddly and friendly, private space respecting shadow broker.

[Dean_the_Young]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

The need to simplify coding, most likely. It was foreshadowed in ME2 that she may have a deep hidden attachment to Shepard as well as a growing zest for being free from the stress of commitment to the flotila.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that: I just view that unwavering attachment as a flaw, not a virtue.

She's actually one of the few "evolving" personalities in ME- she starts out shy and jumpy and slowly becomes more outgoing and aggressive as she becomes more tasked.

I disagree: Tali changes, but isn't developed. Her personality is clay, much like Liara (and Cerberus). She's molded into whatever she's wanted to be next... whether that be edgy crushing damsal 'strong girl with a shotgun' after being a codex with legs and no romantic intent, or an Admirl after having nothing but failures needing Shepard's intervention to resolve to justify her leadership ability.

[BP93]

ITT: Tali fan makes a thread about Tali "owning" another character but doesn't like it when others don't hold the same opinion.

Seriously, who cares? I don't like Tali but I don't go parading around everywhere saying as such.

Modifié par BP93, 21 avril 2012 - 03:42 .

[whalewhisker]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

This thread will end in tears, I just know it.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I don't like Tali much, but I still gave her a chance. Same with Liara. I even romanced them! But then again I romance everything...but they were sweet. As was Miranda's romance, Garrus' romance, Kaidan's romance. etc etc.
There really isn't a bad LI.