47 réponses à ce sujet

[knightnblu]

Anybody can support the VS. All you have to do is adopt 3 rules:
 
1. The VS is always right
 
2. The VS is never wrong
 
3. If in doubt, refer back to rules 1 and 2
 
It also helps if you have no self esteem and don't care about things like apologizing for your mistakes. If you can't live with that however, then the VS is not for you. Hence my boot their rears off of my ship initiative which was adopted by BioWare (thank you, powers that be! I cannot tell you how warm and fuzzy I felt sending Williams to Hackett and I only wish that I could have been much harsher in my orders to her).
 
The VS never relents in their distrust of Shepard. All the way up to the point of aiming a firearm at your skull with the intent of ending your life. The VS doesn't trust you for a second despite their protestations to the contrary and because they no longer trust you, you can no longer trust them. Hence the Mexican stand off.
 
How many beatings do you have to take before you begin to get the idea that the VS is off of their rocker? Tali trusts you, Garrus trusts you, Anderson trusts you, but the VS thinks you are just a low life Cerberus lackey slumming in the Alliance with the intent of committing treason like you did back on Horizon. That is particularly odious given that Williams of all people should know better given the treatment of her grandpa.
 
I have neither the time nor the inclination to change their mind. I say send 'em to Hackett and let them worry about him being a traitor because I'm done with their solid waste excretions.

[EnerPrime]

knightnblu wrote...
*post goes here*

Please, do elaborate about how the VS is off their rocker for not blindly trusting the person who was their commander for a few months, then dissapeared and was assumed dead for two years and then reappears working for terrorists. Please tell me how they are off their rockers for not being Shepard's good little sycophants and doing whatever Shepard says. How dare they think that the person pointing their guns at the Council might not be totally on the level. And the fact that it is incredibly easy to get the VS to turn their guns on udina too means that they are showing Shepard more trust than any other person. How easy do you think it would be to get Garrus to shoot the Primarch? How about getting Tali to draw her weapon at the other Admirals?

[CptData]

@knight:

Wrong.

1. The VS is always right.
2. The VS is never wrong.

That's just plain wrong. The VS is not always right. However, s/he is right when it comes to Shepard. Can you trust someone who suddenly comes back from the dead and is working for an enemy? Can you trust that someone because s/he is your former CO, friend, lover, whatever?

Scratch that statement.

I make it a tad easier:

1. Shepard is always right.
2. Shepard is never wrong.
3. Shepard never does any mistakes.
4. Shepard's actions are never loco.
5. ...

Just saying ...

[Wulfram]

Kaidan's OK, Ashley seemed a bit annoying.  It's not about not trusting Shepard, it's about how you present your mistrust.

I do wish we could point to Garrus and Liara's presence in the Udina scene.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[Hellfire257]

I know I'd rather have someone who questions my actions if/when I step out of line by my side rather than a yes-man/woman.

Blind faith is something that I don't want.

Modifié par Hellfire257, 22 avril 2012 - 01:51 .

[DirtySHISN0]

It's unfortunate that there had to be a virmire survivor, even more so that you get lumbered with them for another 1.2 games (depending on your choice during the coup). Damn you anderson for assembling the original normandy crew and not letting me dump them on the citadel.

[BatmanPWNS]

Most people hate them because they don't kiss up to Shepard.

[DirtySHISN0]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Most people hate them because they don't kiss up to Shepard.

or because they are excrutiatingly human.

The human characters are to similar

kaidan and ashley  - trust issues.
jacob, jack and miranda - parental issues.
treynor and chambers - easy.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 22 avril 2012 - 02:27 .

[CptData]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Most people hate them because they don't kiss up to Shepard.

or because they are excrutiatingly human.

The human characters are to similar

kaidan and ashley  - trust issues.
jacob, jack and miranda - parental issues.
treynor and chambers - easy.

Technically:

Liara - Mommy issues (solved in ME1), Daddy issues (solved in ME3)
Wrex - Daddy issues (knifing his own dad to dead ...)
Grunt - Missing parents issues
Mordin - .... point for you.
Tali - Daddy issues
Thane - lost-wife-and-son-issues
Javik - Spacetroll
...

[DirtySHISN0]

CptData wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Most people hate them because they don't kiss up to Shepard.

or because they are excrutiatingly human.

The human characters are to similar

kaidan and ashley  - trust issues.
jacob, jack and miranda - parental issues.
treynor and chambers - easy.

Technically:

Liara - Mommy issues (solved in ME1), Daddy issues (solved in ME3)
Wrex - Daddy issues (knifing his own dad to dead ...)
Grunt - Missing parents issues
Mordin - .... point for you.
Tali - Daddy issues
Thane - lost-wife-and-son-issues
Javik - Spacetroll
...

ok maybe not the best theory, but we can agree family issues is a theme. Not really helping my point but i remember garrus being at ends with his father to. Had to be Mordin.

[CptData]

^ DirtySHISNO

Let's say most characters have more or less defining, family-related issues - regardless of age, sex and species.

The VS just seems to be a hate-magnet because they violate the rules I posted with those lines:

1. Shepard is always right.
2. Shepard is never wrong.
3. Shepard never does any mistakes.
4. Shepard's actions are never loco.
5. ...

[DirtySHISN0]

CptData wrote...

^ DirtySHISNO

Let's say most characters have more or less defining, family-related issues - regardless of age, sex and species.

The VS just seems to be a hate-magnet because they violate the rules I posted with those lines:

1. Shepard is always right.
2. Shepard is never wrong.
3. Shepard never does any mistakes.
4. Shepard's actions are never loco.
5. ...

It's not quite that, there is something that bothers me about them that i can't pinpoint. Maybe they're to much like shepard, resistant.

[CptData]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

It's not quite that, there is something that bothers me about them that i can't pinpoint. Maybe they're to much like shepard, resistant.

The VS' mindset should be similar to Shepard - after all, Ash, Kaidan and Shepard are all soldiers.
So yeah, not really surprising to me.

I may give you a hint to look into the right direction:
The VS evokes strong emotions: either you love the VS or you hate the VS. There's not much between both extremes, I rarely ever found a hardcore fan without a real opinion on the VS.

Must say, from a writer's PoV it's a great achievement to provoke such emotions - since it shows those characters are so life-like. The worst thing happening to a writer's character is to get ignored or "meh" ...

[DirtySHISN0]

CptData wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

It's not quite that, there is something that bothers me about them that i can't pinpoint. Maybe they're to much like shepard, resistant.

The VS' mindset should be similar to Shepard - after all, Ash, Kaidan and Shepard are all soldiers.
So yeah, not really surprising to me.

I may give you a hint to look into the right direction:
The VS evokes strong emotions: either you love the VS or you hate the VS. There's not much between both extremes, I rarely ever found a hardcore fan without a real opinion on the VS.

Must say, from a writer's PoV it's a great achievement to provoke such emotions - since it shows those characters are so life-like. The worst thing happening to a writer's character is to get ignored or "meh" ...

They aren't by any means bad characters in a narrative sense, they are very well done. I agree.

[Telepek]

My personal problem with VS is just that she/he is too stubborn to listen to a reason. In ME2 it was perfectly understandable: seeing shepard alive, the shock that he is working for Cerberus - i totally understood that. However i got a feeling that in ME 3 wirters made VS stupid on purpose, or the VS were just too afraid to say "Shepard i'm sorry for mistrusting you". Because c'mon - Shepard is working so hard to build that Crucible, is killing every Cerberus Soldier on his way and yet VS is still not trusting us. And the behaviour during the Udina's coup was just riddiculus:

1. First of all we have the hospital scenes where we are sure that between VS and Shepard everything is good
2. In hospital i am pretty much certain that VS is aware of everything that Shepard is accomplished.
3. And most importantly EVERYBODY trust shepard, except VS. Anderson, Hackett, Garrus, Liara, Tali, every damn character in ME3 is trusting Shepard and yet we still have VS behaving like and idiot.

And now the Citadel. You know i understand at the beginning the behaviour of VS - VS is protecting the council, and then we have a possible assasination threat. But then we see that this is Shepard - a man, who saved VS on Mars, man who rescued the turian primarch, a man who saved Grissom academy from Cerberus troops, a man who cured genophage and optional the man that VS is loving very very much - in my opinion those are the arguments, that VS should've consider and without hesitation point gun at Udina. It would be understandable, when Shepard would show up with EDI - dr Eva tried to kill VS, but VS knows everybody else, and thinking that they'd work for Cerberus is pretty much not at right place.

That all for me and i hope that everything i said was understandable ^.^

[EnerPrime]

Telepek wrote...

And now the Citadel. You know i understand at the beginning the behaviour of VS - VS is protecting the council, and then we have a possible assasination threat. But then we see that this is Shepard - a man, who saved VS on Mars, man who rescued the turian primarch, a man who saved Grissom academy from Cerberus troops, a man who cured genophage and optional the man that VS is loving very very much - in my opinion those are the arguments, that VS should've consider and without hesitation point gun at Udina. It would be understandable, when Shepard would show up with EDI - dr Eva tried to kill VS, but VS knows everybody else, and thinking that they'd work for Cerberus is pretty much not at right place.

But the thing is, it's very easy to get the VS to back down at the coup. I've never even had to use persuade options on them. It's just enter, the VS asks what's going on and why you're aiming at Udina, Shepard says Udina is a traitor, asks for trust and the VS immedeatly turns and aims at Udina themselves. I imagine you'd have a much harder time convincing Garrus to shoot Victus or Tali to shoot Admiral Raan or Koris.

[Acacia Meridian]

I believe that the VS suspected that Shepard may have shown signs of being indoctrinated - or altered in some way- by the Illusive Man.

Knowing that, and knowing that not only is Shepard very good at his/her job, but also an extremely persuasive and charismatic individual who has already convinced most of their previous associates to work with Cerberus...if he/she was indoctrinated and still working for the Illusive Man, no-one else would be able to do something about it because they still trust him/her.

This is not to mention what Udina has probably said about Shepard whenever he's visited the VS. And the fact that, well, appointing a Spectre to stop a rogue indoctrinated Spectre already worked once.

And Shepard does show up in the middle of a Cerberus invasion and threaten to kill a councillor. Yes, s/he has good reasons for doing it. However, the VS does not know these reasons. Yes, they could be a little more trusting, but equally so, both of them saw where that got Nihlus at the beginning of ME1.

...And I'm awful at putting things like this into words, so I apologise if it's a bit incoherant.

[Made Nightwing]

knightnblu wrote...

Anybody can support the VS. All you have to do is adopt 3 rules:
 
1. The VS is always right
 
2. The VS is never wrong
 
3. If in doubt, refer back to rules 1 and 2
 
It also helps if you have no self esteem and don't care about things like apologizing for your mistakes. If you can't live with that however, then the VS is not for you. Hence my boot their rears off of my ship initiative which was adopted by BioWare (thank you, powers that be! I cannot tell you how warm and fuzzy I felt sending Williams to Hackett and I only wish that I could have been much harsher in my orders to her).
 
The VS never relents in their distrust of Shepard. All the way up to the point of aiming a firearm at your skull with the intent of ending your life. The VS doesn't trust you for a second despite their protestations to the contrary and because they no longer trust you, you can no longer trust them. Hence the Mexican stand off.
 
How many beatings do you have to take before you begin to get the idea that the VS is off of their rocker? Tali trusts you, Garrus trusts you, Anderson trusts you, but the VS thinks you are just a low life Cerberus lackey slumming in the Alliance with the intent of committing treason like you did back on Horizon. That is particularly odious given that Williams of all people should know better given the treatment of her grandpa.
 
I have neither the time nor the inclination to change their mind. I say send 'em to Hackett and let them worry about him being a traitor because I'm done with their solid waste excretions.

Anybody can hate the VS. All you have to do is follow three rules.

1. Shepard is always right, perfect, true and just.
2. No one has the right to judge Shepard's actions.
3. If in doubt refer back to rule 1 and 2.

It also helps if you have no self esteem, are way too involved with your player avatar and don't care about things like accountability or owning your faults (like working for terrorists). A sign of this low self-esteem is actually believing that BioWare listened to a self-righteous rant nailed to their door when they were writing their game(You give yourself WAY too much credit).

Shepard never relents in pursuing courses of action that just seem bat**** insane. All the way up to pointing a gun at the skull of a Councilor who appears to be Cerberus' primary target with the intention of ending his life. Shepard keeps putting himself in situations where it would be obvious to any casual observer that he's still with Cerberus, despite his protestations to the contrary. Hence the (temporary) Mexican stand-off.

How many stupid actions does Shepard have to take before you get the feeling that the VS is the only sane person in the galaxy? Tali trusts you, Garrus trusts you, Anderson shuts you out and tells you that he can't give you any help as long as you're with Cerberus, but the VS  keeps in mind that it is possible that even the highest of paragons could be turned by indoctrination or hidden beliefs. Considering everything that Cerberus has pulled off, it is gratifying that some people in the galaxy are true to the cause, not to charismatic individuals.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to change your mind. I say you can dwell in your pit of narcissism all you like because I'm done with your solid waste excretions.

Fix'd.

[CptData]

^ well spoken, Made Nightwing.

What I don't really get: does no one think Shepard's actions are ... madness sometimes? In ME1 you pretty much had a "normal Shepard" who stumbled into the role as the galaxy's savior. He became a Spectre to hunt down another Spectre - Saren.
That's basically the setting where you start.
Most of Shepard's action make sense, including taking down Saren & Sovereign, including blowing up half of Virmire.

In ME2, Shepard dies and gets resurrected by Cerberus. Not only that's kinda unique (before Shepard, no one died and returned from the dead - except that person was feign death). Therefore it makes sense if the VS believes Shepard never died - and switched sides. So that distrust is more than understandable to me, even more if the VS and Shepard "had something, something real".

And it's not just that: nearly everything Shepard did in ME2 was "against the odds" - including recruiting his/her crew of specialists. Every "normal" human being would say that's entirely f*cked up stuff no one can do and hope for a good outcome.

Same setting in ME3, by the way. From "normal soldier in a hero's role" to "gawddamn friggin' legendary hero" - that's Shepard's development. No wonder the VS can't believe all that sh*t.

[Applepie_Svk]

EnerPrime wrote...

So, a lot of people seem to be hating on Kaidan and Ashley because they don't automaticly trust Shepard again in ME2. But it seems to me that a lot of people have trouble seeing things from their point of view.

LoL i hate them since i meet them both. For me they are unatractive characters, almost every human in this game which is your squadmate has a poor or unatractive writing in some way, the aliens are far more atratcive because their writing is so freaking great. For me there is only few atractive human characters like a Jack(even if i dont like her, but it is still better than whinning Kaiden), Miranda and even Vega lol... But Alenko, Williams and Jacob are so boring ....

[Hadeedak]

I have to say, I like the original Alliance soldier duo... It was a kicker to leave one behind. And I never had much trouble seeing where they're coming from. Most of the things Shepard does seem kind of bat@#^@ to the casual observer, and apparently they don't have time to chat with the ME1 crew.

But I may be a poor barometer, because I'm a fan of 90% of the characters, and the others I mostly love to hate.