72 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

So, imagine that there is this shop where they have an excellent atmosphere and serve some remarkable tea or coffee or whatever. The exact nature of the shop is unimportant, so long as you imagine it as a place that you love to spend time at. You come here once a week at least and you just love everything about this shop. You've been coming here for years. You know all the shop employees by name.

One day, the shop owner invites me in. I happen to have lots of money. I tell the shop owner "I want you to change everything." I tell the shop owner to keep the name, and the furnature, and some the decour, but to completely switch up what the shop sells, how it's prepared, and how he charges for it. And I dump a wad of cash on his lap to pay for it, so he happily goes about his business doing everything I tell him to do.

All the while, he tells you over and over that he's not going to change any of the stuff that you love. All the while, everything you love is getting thrown out. All the while, everything that is being brought in are things that you hate. All the while he tells you that he hears you when you say you hate it, but brings in all of it anyway. Six months later, the shop is an entirley differenet place. And you hate it. And he tells you that if you don't like the changes, you are free to leave.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 21 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[FieryDove]

There are many *shops* out there.

Unless all shops change to the_one shop I don't see a problem.

[the_one_54321]

Are there many shops out there? I can't really think of any that quite fit the description that once fit this one. Maybe a couple of the Kickstarters. (since I can't think of a proper parallel analogy for the Kickstarters)

[brushyourteeth]

That story kind of makes the hypothetical you sound like a big jerk.

Seriously, though: point taken.

So what specifically was taken away that you loved? And please keep using coffee shop imagery. It helps me keep the visual in line. For instance removable companion armor = the cool eclectic artwork and origins options = your favorite breakfast pastries. Please, for fun?

[FieryDove]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Are there many shops out there? I can't really think of any that quite fit the description that once fit this one. Maybe a couple of the Kickstarters. (since I can't think of a proper parallel analogy for the Kickstarters)

There are, but not exactly like your shop.

I think once the new gen of consoles come out we will see a lot more. Party-based games take lots of overheard that people seem to forget when comparing to single character rpg's action based or otherwise.

[the_one_54321]

brushyourteeth wrote...
That story kind of makes the hypothetical you sound like a big jerk.

Seriously, though: point taken.

So what specifically was taken away that you loved? And please keep using coffee shop imagery. It helps me keep the visual in line. For instance removable companion armor = the cool eclectic artwork and origins options = your favorite breakfast pastries. Please, for fun?

Maybe they just don't sell you coffee anymore. Maybe they just sell you Lite Beer but tell you it's coffee. Like, the menu literally says "coffee." But when  you get your cup, it's clearly full of Lite Beer.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 21 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[brushyourteeth]

But I hate beer!

Surely it's not as bad as all that. That'd be like if I opened up my preorder of DAII and found a copy of Left 4 Dead.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 21 avril 2012 - 07:07 .

[the_one_54321]

"Why there's a group of players so PISSED OFF about this transition"

[brushyourteeth]

Don't get me wrong, there were definitely enough downgrades to ****** me off. I'm just more interested in hearing about your reasons than repeating mine.

[the_one_54321]

Well, those are my reasons. Used to love the place. Been a regular for years. Knew all the staff by name. Then this new group with money demands everything changes, and everything changes.

Character writing is the only thing that is the same as it once was. Character creation and advancement is still mostly similar. Combat mechanics have the same bones, but everything above that has been changed. Everything else is entirely different.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 21 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[Aldaris951]

DAO was a huge seller, It sold more than mass effect 1 and 2, Yet they seem to give mass effect series the bigger budget dispite DAO outselling mass effect, I understand if DA3 gets less budget because DA2 while a decent game was nothing compared to DAO. Bioware got some tough choices to make for DA3 bless them.

[Dakota Strider]

Hmm...in my favorite coffee shop, there used to be great homemade chocolate chip cookies, that could not be duplicated anywhere else, and special cranberry-strawberry muffins. No place else could do them quite like my favorite. Then, my coffeeshop's new landlord tells him, that he thinks he could get more customers, if the coffeeshop adds hot sauce to his cookies and muffins, because there are people that like to eat hot Asian and Mexcian food, instead of cookies and muffins. So, the landlord reasons, that by making hybrid cookies and muffins, he will appeal to even a larger audience.

So, the new hot and spicy chocolate chip cookies and cranberry-strawberry muffins are put out for sale. But obviously, those of us that liked the old treats, thought this was horrible. Some people came to buy these hot treats, because they liked hot food, and they thought it was good. But not as many people came to buy the new hot bakery items, as there were old customers that got fed up with the new menu and left.

(in this instance, I am talking about the combat system, though there are a lot of different parts that the same comparison could make)

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 21 avril 2012 - 10:01 .

[Dakota Strider]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Are there many shops out there? I can't really think of any that quite fit the description that once fit this one. Maybe a couple of the Kickstarters. (since I can't think of a proper parallel analogy for the Kickstarters)

Not sure there are any other shop's out there that can duplicate what many of us liked in our old coffee shop.  There are some that are similar, but since they all use slightly different recipes, and decorate their shops differently, it would be difficult to see a replica of our old favorite.

Only chance that I can see of one coming close...would be if one of Bioware's top competitors took over the D&D license, and uses that content to make a game with today's technology, with the backbone and feel of the system that Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights was based on.

[Dejajeva]

You know I adore you, Clooney, but these analogies are...just..I can't.

But Ill try. Let's say some people actually kind of like this new coffeeshop. Maybe they are new customers who really love what the owner has done with the place. Maybe they think it could use a paint job and some throw pillows, but overall the companionship and ambiance is pretty good. But all the people who hate this coffee shop still come every day, even though they hate it. But all they do is sit in corners and glare at the owners and everyone who did like it. And they hold signs about how much the the new coffee shop sucks while sipping on caramel macciatos. But this makes all the people who enjoy coming a bit uncomfortable, so they ask the people who hate it to go away and find someplace else to be bitter. Or even just to stop ruining their lattes..but the people who hate the coffeeshop refuse. Not only do they hate the coffeeshop but are personally offended by the owners desire to make more money. So. The owner calls the cops throws all the haters in jail for loitering, and serves free opening day cookies to celebrate. And they live happily ever after. The end.

[Maria Caliban]

I am not a 'new customer.'

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I like how the forum personalities are as melodramatic as the ones in BioWare games. These analogies are great.

Dejajeva wrote...

You know I adore you, Clooney, but these analogies are...just..I can't.

But Ill try. Let's say some people actually kind of like this new coffeeshop. Maybe they are new customers who really love what the owner has done with the place. Maybe they think it could use a paint job and some throw pillows, but overall the companionship and ambiance is pretty good. But all the people who hate this coffee shop still come every day, even though they hate it. But all they do is sit in corners and glare at the owners and everyone who did like it. And they hold signs about how much the the new coffee shop sucks while sipping on caramel macciatos. But this makes all the people who enjoy coming a bit uncomfortable, so they ask the people who hate it to go away and find someplace else to be bitter. Or even just to stop ruining their lattes..but the people who hate the coffeeshop refuse. Not only do they hate the coffeeshop but are personally offended by the owners desire to make more money. So. The owner calls the cops throws all the haters in jail for loitering, and serves free opening day cookies to celebrate. And they live happily ever after. The end.

People with different opinions to mine who have the gall to express them strongly, make me uncomfortable. They ruin my enjoyment and should all leave - voluntarily or forcibly.

I just hope you aren't sincere, because that's basically the stereotype that I used on the Mass Effect 3 forums prior to release and one that I've told myself repeatedly doesn't actually exist outside of the hyperbole of others.

[Maria Caliban]

Yes, she's sincerely saying that BioWare should call the police and have people who don't like DA II dragged from the forums. Good catch.

I played ME 3 MP with a dude named Mr. Crusty Bot tonight. You should sue for infringement.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, she's sincerely saying that BioWare should call the police and have people who don't like DA II dragged from the forums. Good catch.

I played ME 3 MP with a dude named Mr. Crusty Bot tonight. You should sue for infringement.

Analogies, how do they work again?

But my point was that it doesn't seem to be an analogy made in jest - her real feelings about the forums are at play. None of the ones in this thread have been in jest, hence the comment about melodrama. Though I hear it from good authority that text is a terrible medium in which to convey sincerity.

As for your experiences in ME 3 MP, I'm a mass production model and would have no grounds for infringement. A shame, I've got two payments left on the monocle. Was he a Geth btw?

Modifié par CrustyBot, 22 avril 2012 - 10:11 .

[sickpixie]

One of my favorite analogies comes from Obsidian's Josh Sawyer, way back when he was working at Black Isle; with a few tweaks it can apply to the Bioware forums (modified words in parentheses):

"Oh, so your opinion is that (feature x) sucks? I guess that makes any and all of your comments on the relative merits of (feature x) completely irrelevant.

Here's a suggestion for future critics of (feature x): telling me that you inherently hate (feature x) and following it up with complaints about a specific implementation of (feature x) is pretty worthless.

"I HATE ALL PEARS!"

"Do you eat pears?"

"NO, OF COURSE NOT. I HATE THEM."

"We have pears and oranges for sale today."

"I'LL TAKE A PEAR."

*customer bites into pear*

"GAAAH! THIS PEAR SUCKS! GOD, I HATE IT!"

"Yes, but that's why we have both pears and ora--"

"ARE YOU COMPLETE AND TOTAL MORON?! DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT YOU COULD HAVE SPENT MONEY BUYING MORE HIGH QUALITY ORANGES THAN STUPID, IDIOTIC, STUPID, DUMB PEARS?!"

"I suppose that's true, but then people who hate oranges woul--"

"WHO CARES ABOUT THEM? THOSE PEOPLE ARE SIMPLETONS! LISTEN TO ME! I AM THE TRUE FAN OF MARKET PRODUCE! WHO EVER HEARD OF A FRUIT CONNOISSEUR WHO LIKED PEARS? THE VERY IDEA IS RIDICULOUS! THIS STAND USED TO ONLY SELL ORANGES. I WAS ONE OF ITS FIRST CUSTOMERS!"

"I understand that, but there are a lot of people who like pea--"

"OH, SO IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, I SEE! BACK WHEN THIS WAS (Baldur's Gate)'S FRUIT STAND, I DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THIS PEAR IDIOCY!"

*customer storms off*"

[Dejajeva]

CrustyBot wrote...

*snipsnip*

I just hope you aren't sincere, because that's basically the stereotype that I used on the Mass Effect 3 forums prior to release and one that I've told myself repeatedly doesn't actually exist outside of the hyperbole of others.

No, I'm completely serious. Your opinions are without merit and not like mine, so therefore wrong on every base level immaginable, and I think you should all be hauled off and keelhauled. Haters suck. Death to haters. Maybe you should all be punished with solitary confinement where you can live in a world where all you have is a TV, an xbox, and a copy of DA2.

[Dejajeva]

sickpixie wrote...

One of my favorite analogies comes from Obsidian's Josh Sawyer, way back when he was working at Black Isle; with a few tweaks it can apply to the Bioware forums (modified words in parentheses):

"Oh, so your opinion is that (feature x) sucks? I guess that makes any and all of your comments on the relative merits of (feature x) completely irrelevant.

Here's a suggestion for future critics of (feature x): telling me that you inherently hate (feature x) and following it up with complaints about a specific implementation of (feature x) is pretty worthless.

"I HATE ALL PEARS!"

"Do you eat pears?"

"NO, OF COURSE NOT. I HATE THEM."

"We have pears and oranges for sale today."

"I'LL TAKE A PEAR."

*customer bites into pear*

"GAAAH! THIS PEAR SUCKS! GOD, I HATE IT!"

"Yes, but that's why we have both pears and ora--"

"ARE YOU COMPLETE AND TOTAL MORON?! DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT YOU COULD HAVE SPENT MONEY BUYING MORE HIGH QUALITY ORANGES THAN STUPID, IDIOTIC, STUPID, DUMB PEARS?!"

"I suppose that's true, but then people who hate oranges woul--"

"WHO CARES ABOUT THEM? THOSE PEOPLE ARE SIMPLETONS! LISTEN TO ME! I AM THE TRUE FAN OF MARKET PRODUCE! WHO EVER HEARD OF A FRUIT CONNOISSEUR WHO LIKED PEARS? THE VERY IDEA IS RIDICULOUS! THIS STAND USED TO ONLY SELL ORANGES. I WAS ONE OF ITS FIRST CUSTOMERS!"

"I understand that, but there are a lot of people who like pea--"

"OH, SO IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, I SEE! BACK WHEN THIS WAS (Baldur's Gate)'S FRUIT STAND, I DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THIS PEAR IDIOCY!"

*customer storms off*"

+5

[the_one_54321]

Dejajeva wrote...
You know I adore you, Clooney, but these analogies are...just..I can't.

Imagine that you're on the other side of this. You're not one of the new patrons. Someone came into your shop, and took it away from you. But hey, I'm providing all this new money to the shop, so the fact that you're heartbroken is meaningless. You should leave.

The fact that there are new patrons doesn't make the situation any less unpleasant or any more fair for the people that suddenly had the carpet yanked out from under them. Your illustration is equivalent to saying "well, we like the new, so that makes it ok to take what you liked from you." People show up and use money to take away something that someone else loved. Who's being mistreated here? 

sickpixie wrote...
...
*customer storms off*"

There are some fans that act like that. The fact that they exist is not justification for making a generalization about all the fans that are unhappy. Note, in the title of the threat it specifically refers to only a group of fans.

And there are those of us that, though perhaps nursing a sense of superiority, are not implying that one thing is inherently better than the other. Just that we want one thing and not the other. This what we enjoy. We've been enjoying it here for years. And we're pissed off that our faithful patronage was answered with this 180 degree switch in products.

I've had pears. I like pears. The pears at this shop are pretty mediocre. And they don't sell oranges anymore. Including oranges on the product list doesn't imply that what's on the shelves are actually oranges. The oranges are gone.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 22 avril 2012 - 05:52 .