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[sickpixie]

the_one_54321 wrote...

There are some fans that act like that. The fact that they exist is not justification for making a generalization about all the fans that are unhappy. Note, in the title of the threat it specifically refers to only a group of fans.

And there are those of us that, though perhaps nursing a sense of superiority, are not implying that one thing is inherently better than the other. Just that we want one thing and not the other. This what we enjoy. We've been enjoying it here for years. And we're pissed off that our faithful patronage was answered with this 180 degree switch in products.

I've had pears. I like pears. The pears at this shop are pretty mediocre. And they don't sell oranges anymore. Including oranges on the product list doesn't imply that what's on the shelves are actually oranges. The oranges are gone.

I really don't see anything that's radically different in Dragon Age 2 compared to their other post-Neverwinter Nights games, including Origins. It does emphasize certain aspects at the expense of others, but ultimately they're both cinematic party-based RPGs that take place in a fantasy setting. A 180 would be more like a non-cinematic single-character action game in a modern setting.

Whether or not they still sell oranges depends on what your definition of "oranges" is. If you want something like Baldur's Gate with no compromises or concessions, you'll have to seek elsewhere, yes. Perhaps you're actually mourning the realization they never had any intention of going back to that style?

[the_one_54321]

sickpixie wrote...
Whether or not they still sell oranges depends on what your definition of "oranges" is.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm getting at. There are those of us that still want oranges. And there are no more orangers. Despite them trying to convince to to like something else and call it oranges. But it's basically as simple as there not being any oranges. Oranges are what was removed in DAII.

sickpixie wrote...
It does emphasize certain aspects at the expense of others

Emphasis? Having a party and a leveling system is about the only two things there weren't completely changed. And that's not hyperbole.

[sickpixie]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Oranges are what was removed in DAII.

That's awfully vague, 2 removed quite a bit. I'll try to narrow it down.

Origins and races? Neither are required for a role playing game. In between Neverwinter Nights and Origins Bioware released three titles where you couldn't play as a nonhuman race.

Lack of options because of the wheel? Well instead of

you get diplomatic/snarky/aggressive paraphrases and the removal of one redundant option.

Skills? Some deserved to go, some deserved to stay, either way they didn't exist in Baldur's Gate and it's not as if nonweapon proficiences didn't exist back then either. It's a battle they chose not to fight either time.

A pannable pseudo-isometric camera, and companions who follow your
orders precisely? Knights of the Old Republic didn't have this either.
It is an annoying step back but not gamebreaking.

Placeable traps, mana/stamina values for enemies, missing from your side, friendly fire on hard? I don't like any of these decisions but I can understand why they made them. Their inclusion might have made it slightly better, but not by much.

Well I'm at a loss. Where are the oranges?

Having a party and a leveling system is about the only two things there weren't completely changed. And that's not hyperbole.

They both involve talking to people, increasing your attributes, and getting new talents and equipment in-between bouts of managing threat and cooldowns. That sounds very Dragon Age to me.

[the_one_54321]

Mass Effect, Jade Empire, and KotOR were all Xbox games. Each of which received a port to PC, eventually.

NWN was the last dedicated PC game, after which DA:O was the last game that was designed for PC first.

It's not fair to say that BioWare released three games that didn't fit the profile when they were developed be a different office and aimed at different platforms. In a manner of speaking, these three game perhaps should have been the foreshadowing element of things to come, but their positive reception glossed over that.

In terms of differences between DAII and DA:O, combat made a huge shift from tactical to action. This was all over marketing, and the speed and animation style of DAII makes kind of strategy based gameplay in DA:O uncomfortable or unnecessary. The camera is a huge deal. Marketing tried really hard to kind skate over that issue and claim that zooming out was good enough. Because of how obvious a lot of people on the forums made it that they would be very upset if the overhead camera was gone. I remember those conversations because I was among the people that took part in them.

As far as "talking to people" goes, voicing the PC creates an entirely different style of dialog interaction. It offers somethings, it heavily restricts other things, and understandably some people love it, some people hate it, and some people don't care. But it's plainly a completely different style of presentation than what was in DA:O.

The leveling system, I will grant is doesn't have much in the way of very significant differences.

[Dejajeva]

Modifié par Dejajeva, 23 avril 2012 - 04:38 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

To Op,

It's easy. I was so pissed off with DA 2 because I cannot roleplay it the way I preferred. Nothing works as I imagined + hopeless main protagonist, auto-dialogue, paraphrase and screwed perspective due to frame narrative. I could easily follow a character and story for $10 in a blockbuster movie than wasting $60, 26 hours and energy with a videogame like DA 2.

[brushyourteeth]

the_one_54321 wrote...

In terms of differences between DAII and DA:O, combat made a huge shift from tactical to action. This was all over marketing, and the speed and animation style of DAII makes kind of strategy based gameplay in DA:O uncomfortable or unnecessary. The camera is a huge deal. Marketing tried really hard to kind skate over that issue and claim that zooming out was good enough. Because of how obvious a lot of people on the forums made it that they would be very upset if the overhead camera was gone. I remember those conversations because I was among the people that took part in them.

As far as "talking to people" goes, voicing the PC creates an entirely different style of dialog interaction. It offers somethings, it heavily restricts other things, and understandably some people love it, some people hate it, and some people don't care. But it's plainly a completely different style of presentation than what was in DA:O.

The leveling system, I will grant is doesn't have much in the way of very significant differences.

This ^ I like better than just "you ruined my coffee shop" and "you took away my oranges." I didn't know anything from your original post except that you were angry about something.

We're all angry about something.

But the difference between critique and complaining is that one is helpful, the other is... a waste. We're at a critical part of the beginning of development for DAIII where the devs are reading what we write and taking notice. Would you listen to a critic that said only "I loved your one thing, and hated your other thing"? I'd ignore such a person. The same way I ignore the BSN posters who say "I'm not going to buy any more Bioware games no matter what, but CHANGE THIS THING because I say so!"

But I'm a jerk for doing that, or so I've been told.

I just think you're cooler than that, OP. So I'm glad you're sharing some of the details about what disappointed you. That kind of thing is actually worth reading about.

[the_one_54321]

The first post is explaining, using an analogy, why there is a group of old fans that are pissed. Other people came and took our toys, and we're angry about it. More specifically, the game has become different when we never wanted it to become different. That last post just makes a list of the things that are different that we didn't want to be different.

There's no right or wrong answer. There's no better or worse. There's what some people like, and what other people like. And there's the fact that some of the fans were happy with what was already here, and there's the new people that demand all of that go away.

Some people like tactical party combat, some people like fast paced mostly protagonist combat.
Some people like the PC voice actor, some people want unvoiced typed lines of dialog.
Etc. etc.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 23 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[brushyourteeth]

Ok, then let's do this...

You're at your favorite coffee shop, which you love. It isn't perfect, but it's yours and there's a lot to love about it. One day the manager tells you that she (yes, she's a she - because I'm a woman and this is my story) plans to improve your favorite latte. "Great!" you think. "It doesn't get much better, but I'm excited!"

But then disaster strikes. Your improved latte isn't improved at all. In fact, you hate it. You feel betrayed. You wonder why that lazy manager thought she could get away with giving you a crap latte. You begin to long to have your perfect latte back (even though it was never perfect).

The manager even has a special board put up on the wall so that you can leave your comments about the new latte. She doesn't immediately improve anything -- she needs time to develop the new new latte. Does the manager actually care about what you want anymore? Or is she happy to just charge you for a latte that she knows you hate? For a while it seemed that she genuinely loved the coffee shop as much as you did and was just trying to make the most amazing latte ever. But the latte is not at all to your liking... did you dream that?

The scenario leaves you with two choices:
1. If you believe she meant to make an improved latte and failed, your feedback could be just the thing that saves her business.
2. If you don't trust her, you'd do better to find a new favorite coffee shop. Not because you aren't welcome at the old one, but because you don't believe in it anymore.

... for what it's worth, I thought the new latte was... different. Not better. It left a bitter aftertaste. But I like the manager. I think she's trying. I intend to give her another chance.

[the_one_54321]

I like the employees and trust that they are trying their best to do a good job, but I'm suspicious the manager is only interested trying to keep me spending my money here and will tell me whatever I want to hear on the off chance that I'll accept it.

I'm waiting to see if I'll get what I like. If I do, then great. If not, then I'm not spending the money on it. Last two offerings saw me take my money elsewhere, so the trends aren't exactly positive, from my point of view.

And, in so far as I specifically am concerned, it really is as simple as that. From this particular vendor, I'm only interested in what I liked from them. If they offer it, I'll buy it. If not, I've kept my money before and I'll do it again.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 23 avril 2012 - 07:10 .

[brushyourteeth]

That's totally fair.

However, I'm just of the opinion that the more detailed feedback you as the customer give, the greater their likelihood of success. They can't listen if we don't speak up!

[Dejajeva]

I think this calls for a dolphin analogy.

You see you are a part of this great big dolphin family and you have dolphin parents who gave you and your dolphin siblings a great big serving of kale. And it was awesome. But one day instead of kale you get plankton. And you hate plankton. But some of your siblings like plankton. So instead of getting mad at your parents you take it out on your dolphin siblings ...and yell that its all their stupid fault you didn't get your kale. If they wouldn't have had the audacity of liking plankton none of this would have happened.
Then your dolphin parents start fighting because of. All the anger in the house, get divorced and then everyone is forced to go hungry.

[the_one_54321]

I haven't even been using analogies past the first post, except where specifically asked to.

[the_one_54321]

Maybe. Maybe folks would have raged for a couple months and then disappeared.

[Maria Caliban]

Filament wrote...

Ok I have an analogy, there once was a videogame developer named BioWare who made a game that polarised the fanbase, then eventually everyone moved on.

A fairytale then?

[Cutlass Jack]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Maybe. Maybe folks would have raged for a couple months and then disappeared.

If this BSN teaches us nothing else, no one stops raging and disappears after a few months.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Hmm...in my favorite coffee shop, there used to be great homemade chocolate chip cookies, that could not be duplicated anywhere else, and special cranberry-strawberry muffins. No place else could do them quite like my favorite. Then, my coffeeshop's new landlord tells him, that he thinks he could get more customers, if the coffeeshop adds hot sauce to his cookies and muffins, because there are people that like to eat hot Asian and Mexcian food, instead of cookies and muffins. So, the landlord reasons, that by making hybrid cookies and muffins, he will appeal to even a larger audience.

So, the new hot and spicy chocolate chip cookies and cranberry-strawberry muffins are put out for sale. But obviously, those of us that liked the old treats, thought this was horrible. Some people came to buy these hot treats, because they liked hot food, and they thought it was good. But not as many people came to buy the new hot bakery items, as there were old customers that got fed up with the new menu and left.

(in this instance, I am talking about the combat system, though there are a lot of different parts that the same comparison could make)

Wait, so... are these Hot Sauce Samurai cookies you are talking about?

[the_one_54321]

I think there's strong need to face up to the fact that some of the desires from different groups of fans are mutually exclusive.

If you make a game I like, they'll hate it. If you make a game they like, I'll hate it. Stop dangling me on the line if you intend to make a game they like. You're not going to get my money, and I'm ready to hear the truth.

[the_one_54321]

NOOOO!