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DAII in relation to DA:O; or Why there's a group of players so PISSED OFF about this transition

Débuté par the_one_54321 , avril 21 2012 06:36

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#51
Guest_Avejajed_*
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 06:53

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the_one_54321 wrote...

I think there's strong need to face up to the fact that some of the desires from different groups of fans are mutually exclusive.

If you make a game I like, they'll hate it. If you make a game they like, I'll hate it. Stop dangling me on the line if you intend to make a game they like. You're not going to get my money, and I'm ready to hear the truth.


This attitude is a problem. Because it doesn't solve anything. Why will you automatically hate it if I like it? Why can't we hope for something that we'll both like? Why is it mutually exclusive? We both liked Origins, so we're obviously not that different. Why does everything have to be so black and white? This attitude is so damned frustrating because you don't allow for middle ground. And then I wonder why you're even here to begin with if you hate it so much. I love this franchise and that's why I come here every day and post and read ideas and give my own, and now you're telling me that even though I wish that you could have a game you'd enjoy as much as I do that you can't hope the same for me?


Some desires are mutually exclusive sure, but I'm willing to compromise. Why aren't you?

Modifié par Avejajed, 23 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

#52
brushyourteeth
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 06:55

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Avejajed wrote...

 We both liked Origins, so we're obviously not that different.


THIS.

#53
the_one_54321
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:04

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Avejajed wrote...
Why will you automatically hate it if I like it?

Some desires are mutually exclusive sure, but I'm willing to compromise. Why aren't you?

Maybe it's not you I'm butting heads with.

Also, did you watch the vid? The screaming no part wasn't the only relevant quote.

#54
Guest_Begemotka_*
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:05

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Avejajed wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

I think there's strong need to face up to the fact that some of the desires from different groups of fans are mutually exclusive.

If you make a game I like, they'll hate it. If you make a game they like, I'll hate it. Stop dangling me on the line if you intend to make a game they like. You're not going to get my money, and I'm ready to hear the truth.


This attitude is a problem. Because it doesn't solve anything. Why will you automatically hate it if I like it? Why can't we hope for something that we'll both like? Why is it mutually exclusive? We both liked Origins, so we're obviously not that different. Why does everything have to be so black and white? This attitude is so damned frustrating because you don't allow for middle ground. And then I wonder why you're even here to begin with if you hate it so much. I love this franchise and that's why I come here every day and post and read ideas and give my own, and now you're telling me that even though I wish that you could have a game you'd enjoy as much as I do that you can't hope the same for me?


Some desires are mutually exclusive sure, but I'm willing to compromise. Why aren't you?



THIS. If one side is unable to compromise,why should the other.
And then there are the people who liked both games (I am one for DAO,and DAO alone,but there are those who do not feel the same way).

The extent and nature of the compromise should be the question here.Because,after the 180 they did with DA2,there will have to be one,I am afraid.I just hope they can come up with something that is the best of both worlds.
We all want an epic DA3 we can enjoy.

#55
the_one_54321
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:06

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DA:O was the compromise.

BG/BGII was the original goal.

#56
Guest_Begemotka_*
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:09

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the_one_54321 wrote...

DA:O was the compromise.

BG/BGII was the original goal.


OK.That clearly went over my head - I mean it,sorry,I have not realized.

#57
the_one_54321
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:11

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When I said "been coming here for years, and know all the employees by name," that part was entirely literal. A number of BioWare fans have been here since people my age were in high school or younger. DA:O was an excellent balance between cinematic and party based tactical design. DAII spit on the line as it crossed it.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 23 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

#58
Kail Ashton
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:12

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Both were pretty mediocre in their own right, i'd like bioware to make a great rpg one day, sure it'll never happen with poor direction/programming/engines/everything but the great writters, but i'm an optimist i can hope DA3 bucks the medicore trend and actually tries to be great

Even if you fall short of great, it could still be good

#59
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:20

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the_one_54321 wrote...

When I said "been coming here for years, and know all the employees by name," that part was entirely literal. A number of BioWare fans have been here since people my age were in high school or younger. DA:O was an excellent balance between cinematic and party based tactical design. DAII spit on the line as it crossed it.


Uhm, maybe being to optimistic here but after having seen the PAX videos that brushyourteeth posted (again thank you Image IPB) I dare to say that I'm somewhat poitive about the direction BW will take DA3.

Three very big issues were adressed there that will deffinitily be changed.
But other stuff ran over the screen to, which indicates to me that those are things that they are still thinking/working on. And there were things that are up in your alley too.

Just throwing my thoughts over this in here Image IPB.

#60
Guest_Avejajed_*
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:22

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Avejajed wrote...
Why will you automatically hate it if I like it?

Some desires are mutually exclusive sure, but I'm willing to compromise. Why aren't you?

Maybe it's not you I'm butting heads with.

Also, did you watch the vid? The screaming no part wasn't the only relevant quote.


I watched the video. But that really is comparing apples to oranges. This is not life or death. It's a video game.The only thing at stake for you is your $60 bucks.

If you think that Bioware needs your money bad enough then you shouldn't worry. Everything should work out exactly like you want it.

#61
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Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:24

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@the_one : Right,I think I get it now:)
I am new on the forums (though with my 32 years,hardly a new gamer :),thus did not get the "employee" reference,thanks for taking the effort to clarify.

But you have summed up exactly why I did not enjoy DA2 :
"DA:O was an excellent balance between cinematic and party based tactical design. DAII spit on the line as it crossed it. "
Those are obviously areas where no further compromise should be made whatsoever.

They appear to be genuinely trying to clean up their act in other departments,though,that is why I am hopeful they will do the same with other aspects of the game.

EDIT : Just realized that with my above statement I also ruled out further compromise,so I shot myself in the foot.Good one,Begemot:)Opinion still stands tho:O)

Modifié par Begemotka, 23 avril 2012 - 07:44 .

#62
Realmzmaster
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:27

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the_one_54321 wrote...

When I said "been coming here for years, and know all the employees by name," that part was entirely literal. A number of BioWare fans have been here since people my age were in high school or younger. DA:O was an excellent balance between cinematic and party based tactical design. DAII spit on the line as it crossed it.


I have been coming here since Shattered Steel I respect your opinion but I do not agree that DA2 spit on the line as it crossed it.  I had fun with DA2.  I will be the first to admit that it had its faults, but every cRPG i have played had those. So on this point we will have to agree to disagree. 

As far as the balance between cinematic and party based tactical design we will have to disagree again. I really do not think the balance between the two games is that different. I had no problem being tactical in either game but YMMV.

#63
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Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:33

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Why not? I like faster action...I'll admit, I'm a button masher. But I'm all for returning the overhead camera and for combat to be more tactical. I know people enjoy that. If they could give me an option to turn off tactics that would be great.

This is what I mean by compromise. We obviously prefer different combat styles, but I don't see why it can't be fixed to where both of us like it. If they gave you back your overhead camera and gave you combat scenarios that required you to make tactical moves- where you'd have to plan ahead for the big battles and pause frequently...but sped up the combat and allowed me the ability to run in and hack and slash if I wanted to, ignoring tactics all together...would you be happy? Or because it's not all exactly how you want it, you'd still be angry?

#64
Fraevar
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:44

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Avejajed wrote...

Why not? I like faster action...I'll admit, I'm a button masher. But I'm all for returning the overhead camera and for combat to be more tactical. I know people enjoy that. If they could give me an option to turn off tactics that would be great.

This is what I mean by compromise. We obviously prefer different combat styles, but I don't see why it can't be fixed to where both of us like it. If they gave you back your overhead camera and gave you combat scenarios that required you to make tactical moves- where you'd have to plan ahead for the big battles and pause frequently...but sped up the combat and allowed me the ability to run in and hack and slash if I wanted to, ignoring tactics all together...would you be happy? Or because it's not all exactly how you want it, you'd still be angry?


I think the issue there would be that tactics would not be required in order to beat the encounter. That was the main issue in DA2 - the tactics system and such was implemented, but you did not need to use it, and in fact it seemed like it was redundant because all the encounters were designed for button-mashing playstyles.

The compromise you suggest would be doable within a reasonable timeframe only as the Easy setting, with Normal or above requiring pause-and-play as well as strategic planning. This is of course the crux - because when you play it on Easy, you will of course be able to run in and hack n'slash but you will be able to do that because the game turns off half its gameplay systems.

So my question to you in that case is: Would you find that enjoyable to play?

#65
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Posté 23 avril 2012 - 07:55

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Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

Why not? I like faster action...I'll admit, I'm a button masher. But I'm all for returning the overhead camera and for combat to be more tactical. I know people enjoy that. If they could give me an option to turn off tactics that would be great.

This is what I mean by compromise. We obviously prefer different combat styles, but I don't see why it can't be fixed to where both of us like it. If they gave you back your overhead camera and gave you combat scenarios that required you to make tactical moves- where you'd have to plan ahead for the big battles and pause frequently...but sped up the combat and allowed me the ability to run in and hack and slash if I wanted to, ignoring tactics all together...would you be happy? Or because it's not all exactly how you want it, you'd still be angry?


I think the issue there would be that tactics would not be required in order to beat the encounter. That was the main issue in DA2 - the tactics system and such was implemented, but you did not need to use it, and in fact it seemed like it was redundant because all the encounters were designed for button-mashing playstyles.

The compromise you suggest would be doable within a reasonable timeframe only as the Easy setting, with Normal or above requiring pause-and-play as well as strategic planning. This is of course the crux - because when you play it on Easy, you will of course be able to run in and hack n'slash but you will be able to do that because the game turns off half its gameplay systems.

So my question to you in that case is: Would you find that enjoyable to play?


I would, yes. But that's because I play on casual anyway. If I wanted more challenging enounters than just hacking away, I'd turn up the difficulty. I don't play Dragon Age for the combat. I play it for the story. But I understand that there are players who want the whole shebang, and I'm okay with that. Even if they brought back a sped-up version of Origins combat, I'd still be okay with it.  I'll just continue to play it on Casual, like I did Origins. The only thing I ask is that combat remain real time- if I press x, I want my character to attack. Not press x and wait for my character to attack. So yeah, while I still prefer button mashing combat, I wouldn't mind being required to play on casual to get it. I button mashed my way through Origins, and I can do it again.

#66
Thor Rand Al
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 09:00

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Begemotka wrote...
I was just wondering - is there a middle ground at all (not a lukewarm no-man`s land) that they could reach that would satisfy fans,without alienating many?Is it at all possible without watering down the experience?
Not going back to DAO or DA2 completely,but improve both games where it is needed?
Is the fanbase so divided that it is beyond reconciliation? After all,whatever game they end up making,some people will hate it regardless.:unsure:


Doubt it except for those fans that actually liked both games.  I have a feeling that they might be the actual winners between the other 2 groups.
Group 1 hated DA2 because it wasn't a carboncopy of Origins.
Group 2 loved it better then Origins because it was different style to the typical games.
Then there's group 3, those that loved Origins and loved the 180 in DA2, myself included.  It was a nice change of pace so to speak.  I wasn't out to save the world, I was out to save myself and family if I could and I bumbled many times along the way. Change is nice, keeps me on my toes and adds variety. 
Bottom line is there's goin to be happy and unhappy people with the next game because everyone' got their own thing they loved and disliked about each game. 

Take what made DA:O a big hit, plus what was great about DA2 and combine them along with something new and they could whip out a great game.  But again the one's that hated DA2 won't be happy because it's not strickly DA:O style and it's got stuff from DA2 in it, and those that loved DA2 only won't like it because it's got some Origins style in the game.  And then those in the middle who liked both are gonna go oh hell ya, this is an excellent game because its got a lil of both in it along with something new. 

What I want the most, not to be rushed, no major wtf plot holes lol, give me a combo of both games along with the something new.  The DA universe is huge, they got so many things going on, so many stories.  So many possibilities to explore.  I'm game, bring them on DA lol

#67
Guest_Begemotka_*
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 10:10

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@Thor Rand Al :

yep,a compromise is inevitable at this point-after DA2 definitely.
There are,of course,features that I do not want to see altered,and there are features you would not want to change.As I said above,we all have our pet peeves,but fighting against a change that has already taken place,and is unlikely to be completely reversed,is futile.
I feel like you do - I like to see them addressing issues (yeah,I know,useful features that were scrapped are now being put back in,but hey,thats a start lol),and hope for the best of both worlds.
There is not much else I can do:)I hope Bioware is trying their best.I am not so sure about EA though:(
So,to get back to the OP`s coffee shop analogy - if the new owner leaves my espresso intact,I don`t mind some whipped cream or the paper cups.Or the different decor.Problem is,that proverbial espresso is different for everybody.

#68
jbrand2002uk
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 10:37

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Well since as the new owner owns the "coffee shop" they're well within their right to tell you Oi you on yer bike now and neither is there any legal requirement for them to sell the same espresso you love and if they want to take out the Oranges then thats their business and right whether you and many others like it or not.

Neither does buying many of their products mean that they are required to continue pleasing you,the harsh reality is your just another number,just another wallet no more or less important than all the other numbers and wallets

Modifié par jbrand2002uk, 23 avril 2012 - 10:37 .

#69
Guest_Begemotka_*
Posté 23 avril 2012 - 10:58

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jbrand2002uk wrote...

Well since as the new owner owns the "coffee shop" they're well within their right to tell you Oi you on yer bike now and neither is there any legal requirement for them to sell the same espresso you love and if they want to take out the Oranges then thats their business and right whether you and many others like it or not.

Neither does buying many of their products mean that they are required to continue pleasing you,the harsh reality is your just another number,just another wallet no more or less important than all the other numbers and wallets


Thing is : the coffee shop used to be owned by the very people who made fantastic coffee there.
People loved the way they made their coffee.And then they started to change things,not always for the better.That was still somewhat passable - some new customers came in and they got hooked on the coffee as well.
Then the new owner comes in,and tells the folks who have been brewing coffee for years that they have no clue how to make a good espresso and from this moment on,it should be made this way or that.

It is not about giving extra options or a tasteful tweak in the recipe...it is worse.
It is like the new owner telling the old customers,whose loyalty the empire was built upon,to up their bikes and leave,if they dont like the new recipe,regardless of the old owner`s wishes.
Sure,they will be able to get in all those shiny new people,and make a living off them.Who cares about old customers,right?:blink:And perhaps some of the old customers would not mind trying the new guys` coffee,if it was still based on a shot of coffee,not...tea?

But the new owner will screw over the new folk,just as they did with those who came before them.And then word will start to spread and after a while,only the very gullible will ever set foot in the shop.

But it will hardly matter then...and the worst of all?The coffee shop staff,the old owners,will be out of work,and thats unfair,cause they are good at their job.

Modifié par Begemotka, 23 avril 2012 - 11:02 .

#70
the_one_54321
Posté 24 avril 2012 - 07:58

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Avejajed wrote...
If they gave you back your overhead camera and gave you combat scenarios that required you to make tactical moves- where you'd have to plan ahead for the big battles and pause frequently...but sped up the combat and allowed me the ability to run in and hack and slash if I wanted to, ignoring tactics all together...would you be happy? Or because it's not all exactly how you want it, you'd still be angry?

I would not complain about this. But I am not an optimist, and I really don't see this actually happening.

#71
Guest_Begemotka_*
Posté 24 avril 2012 - 10:11

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Avejajed wrote...
If they gave you back your overhead camera and gave you combat scenarios that required you to make tactical moves- where you'd have to plan ahead for the big battles and pause frequently...but sped up the combat and allowed me the ability to run in and hack and slash if I wanted to, ignoring tactics all together...would you be happy? Or because it's not all exactly how you want it, you'd still be angry?

I would not complain about this. But I am not an optimist, and I really don't see this actually happening.



I`d rather be realistic,wait and see what they show us,then decide if I have a reason to be really optimistic.
Wait....or is it...I should be optimistic,see what the show us,then be realistic. :lol:

Jokes aside,I really liked the way they addressed the fan concerns so far.I respect the devs and writers for being here on the forums,taking part in the discussion.
So I will stick with an oxymoron - I am an optimistic realist.Or something.

#72
the_one_54321
Posté 24 avril 2012 - 10:19

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Realistically, the trends are not in my favor. They've been moving farther away from I prefer with each subsequent game.

#73
Dakota Strider
Posté 24 avril 2012 - 11:07

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Its one thing when the coffee ship offers a new menu, and takes the old items off of it. Its another thing, when the menu still says it sells the same items as in the past, but when you buy them, you find out that it resembles something else altogether.

as the_one said: DAO was the compromise.

Those of us that like the old style Bioware games, like BG or NwN do not go to companies that create other genres, and tell them to make their games more like a BG style rpg. If someone makes a great button masher, that is wonderful. I won't play it myself, but I hope they make the best button masher possible, so the fans of that genre, get everything they pay for, and more.

So, when Bioware makes the compromise of two distinct styles, and pulls its old fans towards a style that we do not prefer, we grumbled, but looked for the good in DAO. Then when people who like button mashers complain that DAO is not fast enough, or that the levelling makes no sense, or that there are too many sidequests, we old-timers feel like squatters have come in and are trying to kick us out of the one place that has always made the type of games we like best. And when Bioware lurched even farther away from us in DA2, we finally decided it was time to draw the line, and get vocal about the direction we want the company to take, if it is going to keep getting our support.

So, my apologies if our "demands" for a better rpg makes it seem like some of you are not welcome. That is far from the truth. However, there are plenty of other button mashers, and other genre out there, we just ask that you do not get upset at us when we try to keep Bioware from becoming just like everyone else.
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