69 réponses à ce sujet

[sleepingbelow]

Okay, our conclusion here perhaps differs because I think we are operating under different premises.  One of my premises is that Anora is the dowager queen.  That is something else we can argue, but I ain't hearing nobody calling her Your Ladyship or Mistres or Ms. Thang.  They call her Your Highness or Your Majesty, if I recall correctly.  But if I understand correctly, your premise is that she does not have the crown, and is gaining the crown by trading sexual favors.  I will concede that under that premise, you could draw a valid conclusion that the act is simply slimy, not... well, I guess I'm calling it "rape-y".

Under my premise that Anora is queen, and you are attempting a coup (not placing judgement on the validity of the coup, just calling it a coup), she is then being threatened with being deposed.  Though I don't want to go too far into American legality here, this would qualify as duress.  Which would factor, under an American legal system, into any number of sex-crime related charges that go beyond simple solicitation.  I'm not a lawyer here, but this is how I understand it.  And I am bringing my own cultural values to the table here.  And we may be operating under different premises here and therefore reaching different conclusions.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 04 mai 2010 - 08:29 .

[Orchomene]

From Wikia :



"If The Warden is a male Human Noble, it is possible to reign beside her if you choose the right dialogue options to ask for her hand in marriage. The hero must however seize the initiative twice to make this happen. First this topic must be broached by the hero and agreed upon in Arl Eamon's estate after rescuing Anora from Arl Howe while discussing the terms of their "alliance". The hero must ask her "What if you had a strong King beside you?" She will then tell him that he would make a fine prince and consort and, -if- his persuade skill is high enough, she will agree to marry him in return for his support in her bid to gain the throne in her own name. Second, when given the opportunity to select the next ruler, the player must state that he will rule by Queen Anora's side as her husband. If the player selects her as the next monarch without simultaneously making the announcement that he will rule with her, she will not make good on the promise she made to marry him in return for his support. Note that Anora will also refuse to marry the Warden if he personally kills her father even if the above two requirements are met. Neither will the warden have the opportunity to select the next monarch and thus marry Anora should a hardened Alistair slay Loghain. The game contradicts itself on whether the hero who marries her will hold the position of king consort or prince consort. Anora will announce to the Landsmeet twice that he is her king consort and the Landsmeet quest completion entry in the journal will state that the hero is Anora's king consort and the general of her armies. But should he later mention to Anora that he looks forward to being king after her coronation, she will correct him that actually he is her prince consort. The epilogue slide show will also refer to him as prince consort instead of king consort. From the localization comments in her dialogs it is clear that she is worried that her new husband may attempt to seize power from her and that she is attempting to establish that he is subordinate to her. As is also alluded to in the epilogue, the hero as her husband is not bound to cooperate with her desire to be sole ruling monarch. If they can reach an accommodation that they both find agreeable, a golden age may come to Ferelden. Otherwise a power struggle looms. "

[Arthur Cousland]

Xandurpein wrote...

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

I am currently running a bloodmage trying to get to endgame in the hopes allowing Loghain to become a grey warden, sleeping with morrigan to ensure no wardens die allowing loghain the final blow and marrying Anora.......................Quite the task. Let you know if I can do it

Well... I think the only thing that isn't doable is letting Loghain take the final blow. If you slept with Morrigan so no warden dies I think it will be you who automatically kills the Archdemon.

Loghain did the final blow and died after the deed in my playthrough, though I turned Morrigan down.  If you go through the ritual, does the option of letting Loghain die never come up?

[Willowhugger]

Ah, that explains it.

In the case of Anora, she was Queen consort to Calian and effectively acting as his proxy for much of the kingdom's reign.  Unfortunately, she was never given the position of Chancellor or Queen-regent.  Her attempt to seize power by becoming Queen-regent is a major portion of the game.  She has no real legitimacy to do so, it's simply everyone knows her as an effective governor and the daughter of a disgraced but powerful nobleman.

That my take at least.

[Marso40]

deleted

Modifié par Marso40, 04 mai 2010 - 05:30 .

[Marso40]

 

Ya'll are confusing me here.

Anora married Cailan and was Queen of Ferelden- that's my understanding. Not 'queen-hyphen-anything', just queen. With Cailan dead, she remains the sole legal monarch in Ferelden. Loghain's seizing some sort of trumped-up 'regency' was what was illegal- Anora was the Queen.

Really, Eamon attempting to put Alistair on the throne was nothing more than a coup. His focus should have been on removing Loghain from any position of authority or responsibility and then pressing forward with Anora. Marrying Alistair to her could have been an after-thought if he was worried about Therin bloodlines.

Of course, we learn later in RTO that Eamon was concerned over the possibility of Anora being barren. That would have given him added motivation to simply remove her entirely.

Modifié par Marso40, 04 mai 2010 - 05:30 .

[Willowhugger]

In real life, you're right Marso40, it's a bit of a later time problem.



In general though, most Queens weren't rulers in their own right.



They were just acting in the authority of their husbands.



It would be like Michelle Obama claiming the Presidency.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain did the final blow and died after the deed in my playthrough, though I turned Morrigan down. If you go through the ritual, does the option of letting Loghain die never come up?

Why would it? Someone only dies to kill the Archdemon if the ritual is not performed.

Anora married Cailan and was Queen of Ferelden- that's my understanding. Not 'queen-hyphen-anything', just queen. With Cailan dead, she remains the sole legal monarch in Ferelden. Loghain's seizing some sort of trumped-up 'regency' was what was illegal- Anora was the Queen.

Not true. Unless the rule is specifically stated to be a joint ruling (like Alistair and Anora if they wed or William and Mary in real life), one person is the regent (Cailan and whoever you pick at the Landsmeet) and they have all the official power. They are the ruler. Whoever they marry has the title King/Queen consort, which is also known as prince/princess consort. Female consorts are often called Queen Consorts because usually the King was the regent and so in the rarer cases where the male was the consort referring to him as Prince Consort was really just clarifying his position.



Anora was not a ruling Queen, she was the wife of a previous King. If she had a right to the throne then Eamon could not have called a Landsmeet to propose Alistair as the new King. It's like if Alistair or Anora is placed on the throne and a few years later we find out that Cailan had a legitimate sibling somewhere that, in true soap opera fashion, was presumed to be dead but wasn't. He would technically have a stronger claim to the throne then both Alistair AND Anora but would Eamon be able to call a Landsmeet to put him on the throne? No.



Once the King Regent was dead Loghain basically pulled a coup. He should have called a Landsmeet but he was worried about the Blight, (mostly) Orlais, and his daughter being removed from her position. Anora was not the ruling Queen after Cailan's death and only gets the chance to be if she wins at the Landsmeet. Instead, she was the consort to Loghain's regent...which is kind of odd if you think about the fact that all consorts were required to do officially were to aid the regent in producing heirs.

[echobravo]

Orchomene wrote...

From Wikia :

"If The Warden is a male Human Noble, it is possible to reign beside her if you choose the right dialogue options to ask for her hand in marriage. The hero must however seize the initiative twice to make this happen. First this topic must be broached by the hero and agreed upon in Arl Eamon's estate after rescuing Anora from Arl Howe while discussing the terms of their "alliance". The hero must ask her "What if you had a strong King beside you?" She will then tell him that he would make a fine prince and consort and, -if- his persuade skill is high enough, she will agree to marry him in return for his support in her bid to gain the throne in her own name. Second, when given the opportunity to select the next ruler, the player must state that he will rule by Queen Anora's side as her husband. If the player selects her as the next monarch without simultaneously making the announcement that he will rule with her, she will not make good on the promise she made to marry him in return for his support. Note that Anora will also refuse to marry the Warden if he personally kills her father even if the above two requirements are met. Neither will the warden have the opportunity to select the next monarch and thus marry Anora should a hardened Alistair slay Loghain. The game contradicts itself on whether the hero who marries her will hold the position of king consort or prince consort. Anora will announce to the Landsmeet twice that he is her king consort and the Landsmeet quest completion entry in the journal will state that the hero is Anora's king consort and the general of her armies. But should he later mention to Anora that he looks forward to being king after her coronation, she will correct him that actually he is her prince consort. The epilogue slide show will also refer to him as prince consort instead of king consort. From the localization comments in her dialogs it is clear that she is worried that her new husband may attempt to seize power from her and that she is attempting to establish that he is subordinate to her. As is also alluded to in the epilogue, the hero as her husband is not bound to cooperate with her desire to be sole ruling monarch. If they can reach an accommodation that they both find agreeable, a golden age may come to Ferelden. Otherwise a power struggle looms. "

Thanks for the response.  I did previously read this from the Dragon Age Wiki which is why I am puzzled.

Going back to old saves through repeated testing, I performed the dialogue options with Anora and passed the persuasion check to have her agree to marry me prior to the Landsmeet.  At the Landsmeet, I defeated Loghain in the duel and subsequently had Alistair (he was not hardened) execute Loghain.  Next, I stated I will rule by Anora's side as her husband.

This is where the issues begin for me.  My journal gets bugged and the "Go to the Landsmeet" entry does not get removed on completion of the quest.  After defeating the Archdemon (I had Alistair perform the ritual with Morrigan), Anora states at the coronation ceremony that I am her betrothed and future king.  However, in the epilogue text, it states that Anora never remarried as she compared all suitors to her father.

As I previously stated, if I choose to have Loghain go through the joining ritual to become a Grey Warden (I also persuaded Anora to let Alistair live but this is not required), I do get the epilogue text to correctly show the lavish wedding with Anora (the Landsmeet journal entry also gets properly removed on completion).

Therefore, based on my testing, it appears the Dragon Age Wiki is incorrect and the only way to get the lavish wedding entry to show in the epilogue text is to have Loghain become a Grey Warden.  Can someone please confirm this?

Modifié par echobravo, 05 mai 2010 - 02:45 .

[Sarah1281]

There's probably a mod available to fix that if you're on the PC.

[echobravo]

Sarah1281 wrote...

There's probably a mod available to fix that if you're on the PC.

I'm playing on the Xbox 360 so this is not an option for me unfortunately.

[Willowhugger]

So, in your opinion, would your warden struggle for power with Anora?

I'm a bit disappointed with Loghain's response to our marriage.

"I brought up the issue of heirs with Anora and she looked horrified."

Yeah, I'm guessing we're not happy.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 05 mai 2010 - 04:25 .

[sleepingbelow]

That could just mean that she's uncomfortable talking about baby-making with her pops.

[Willowhugger]

I confess, that scene sort of freaked me out.



Seeing Loghain happy is unnerving.

[Sarah1281]

sleepingbelow wrote...

That could just mean that she's uncomfortable talking about baby-making with her pops.

What do you want to bet he asked way too many prying questions trying to see what the problem was and offered in-depth solutions and she didn't need to hear that from him?

[sleepingbelow]

This is a thought I can't get out of my head so I need to inflict it on you.
Seriously, it is always control freaks in positions of power that are the weirdest in the sack, and when you get down to it, that pretty much describes both Anora and any Warden willing to seize the throne.  If they're "happy" in the marital capacity, I'm betting there is some real creepy, Eyes Wide Shut type stuff going on there.

[Sarah1281]

sleepingbelow wrote...

This is a thought I can't get out of my head so I need to inflict it on you.
Seriously, it is always control freaks in positions of power that are the weirdest in the sack, and when you get down to it, that pretty much describes both Anora and any Warden willing to seize the throne.  If they're "happy" in the marital capacity, I'm betting there is some real creepy, Eyes Wide Shut type stuff going on there.

That might explain why she didn't want to discuss it with daddy.

[Willowhugger]

of course, it depends on what role hardened Leliana plays in their relationship too.



Man, that's fanficcy though.

[thegreateski]

This thread is going to a bad place rather quickly . . .

[Willowhugger]

Yes, but a grateful one.



I do wonder if Anora is actually attracted to either the Grey Warden or Alistair at all, though. I never got the impression she was, or even Calian.



Maybe she just doesn't swing that way.

[sleepingbelow]

[Taritu]

Willowhugger wrote...

Yes, but a grateful one.

I do wonder if Anora is actually attracted to either the Grey Warden or Alistair at all, though. I never got the impression she was, or even Calian.

Maybe she just doesn't swing that way.

Well then, she might appreciate a hardened Leiliana...

[CybAnt1]

Always felt, and still will, that Anora is basically pretty cold, ruthless, and power-hungry (gets those traits from da-da), and she's marrying you for power, not for love. She wants power, and having the Hero of Ferelden as consort helps consolidate it, as long as you "know your place". Sure, you'll get the benefits of palace life, but Anora will carefully conceal from all the servants your separate bedroom. If you want lovin', you may have to find your mistress Lel ... or Zev on the down low.



Now apparently if you let da-da live (well you have to, to marry her), he wants heirs for daughter. But remember, she MIGHT be barren (she never gave Cailan any heirs), and you have that GW "thang" reducing your chance of reproductive success. I get the sense she'll permit some clinical attempts, so to speak, at heir production, but that's about all you'll get from her.



I incidentally feel the Alistair-Anora marriage will mostly play out the same way, too. The marriage is arranged, but loveless.



However, I would have liked the chance in game to MAKE it a love match, maybe through some quest etc. that could "change" or "unharden" Anora.

[Sarah1281]

Now apparently if you let da-da live (well you have to, to marry her), he wants heirs for daughter.

The epilogue is a little buggy if you don't, but as long as Alistair kills her she'll still marry you. Of course, you need to either keep him unhardened or make it clear to him that you're not supporting him or else he'll agree with Eamon.

[Marso40]

I had a fun moment in one of my playthroughs where I planned on marrying Anora to become king (or consort, or whatever), and had hardened Alister, not knowing he was going to grow a spine and trump me at the Landsmeet. So all goes according to plan, I have Alister kill Loghain and am all set to step up and announce our plans, and BAM! Alister jumps in there, claims the crown, and the next thing I know Anora is being packed off to the tower and I'm standing there with no fiance, no crown, no nuthin'. So at the end I settled for Gwaren.



That was after multiple playthroughs and I thought I had the sequence of what I needed to do down cold- it was awesome to find that I had miscalculated (in what amounted to metagaming) and the game through me a freakin' curve like that. Just part of what makes this game so great.