109 réponses à ce sujet

[Dakota Strider]

Listen, for those of you ladies that do not like how Isabella was sexualized in the game, I think there are a lot of us guys that feel the same way. For me, she was really the only valid choice for a LI (Merril was...nice, but between being a blood mage, and having the naivette of a 6 year old...). So, when the one available female my character can romance is made out to be a cheap floozy, with the morals of an alley cat, it did not exactly help the self esteem of the male Hawke that romanced her. Aveline would have been a much more ideal LI for the type of character I like to play, but she was not made available.

[Maria Caliban]

People in Thread: EA's marketing department marginalized women gamers by only showing the heroes of its games as men. And the only women in its advertizements are reduced to sex objects.

Dakota: I agree! Isabela is a loose women who I didn't want to romance. This is horrible!

Talk about poster disconnect.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 avril 2012 - 01:18 .

[Dakota Strider]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

so.......we meet again .

I agree with you that if you are playing a male and want to romance a female you only had two options.

But I see Isabela as a woman thinking like a man. She does have her standards regarding her involvement in relationships and she is a woman trying to hold up in a men's world (being captain of a ship) and she had a very bad first experience regarding her husband.

Isabela is a very strong and determined character with her own opinions in my opinion. And like Varric she lies a lot. Might as well lie about all the escapedes she had.

There is a lot to like about Isabella....and I doubt anyone expected her to act like a vestal virgin.  But they made her so over the top, it is almost every scene she says something, she is talking about sex.  I was in the Marines, and you do not hear guys there talking about sex there as the writers chose to do with Isabella in DA2.  

Perhaps we can blame it all on Varric.  He was afterall exaggerating the story, throughout.  He is probably the one the sensationalized Isabella.

[brushyourteeth]

Um, hi - another gamer that's a woman here. There are actually quite a lot of us, and I think Bioware realizes that.

Maybe there is a sexism to the marketing of the DA franchise, but if so it's a subtle sexism. What, we're mad now because out of two Dragon Age games, two advertisements/trailers have featured male protagonists? F-Hawke's screenshots were all over the web when the preliminaries came out for DA2. Bioware loved Fem-Shep so much, they made an ME3 trailer of Renegade Fem-Shep (granted, that was probably partly due to fan love, but fair is fair).

I actually feel like gaming is one of the areas of society that embraces strong female roles. Granted, there are enough squealy bouncing jRPG girls to choke a nug, but games with strong female protagonists like Metroid, Perfect Dark, and Portal have been embraced by enough male gamers that I don't think it's fair to cry wolf on the industry.

... especially not Dragon Age. From the beginning, we girls and guys alike have been given the option to play as a BA lady hero that changes the world. We've faced women who are serious business both as allies and adversaries. Anora rules a kingdom by herself. Meredith runs a city by herself. Aveline knows how to take care of business, and can do it - by herself. Flemeth runs things from the shadows, as best as we can tell, by herself. Andraste overthrew Tevinter and freed the slaves (with the Maker's help, but whatever -- the point is a woman was His chosen to get the job done -- not a man). Isabela's a feminist in her own right. Is she eye candy? Yep. But no man is her master. And let's be real - her counterparts, Aveline and Merrill, are so BA and capable / sweet and virginal that you can hardly accuse Bioware of planting the sexbomb stereotype on women.

Interesting article, but I've never felt discriminated against by Bioware. In fact, quite the contrary.
Aand if you just want an advertisement that features a woman, you should just say so.

[Maria Caliban]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Maria,

Shame on you! You make one thing from two seperate ones going on here.
Comparing the advertizements with Isabela being a loose woman.

Dakota could have drawn his conclusion by playing the game not by the poster.

But I know you allready know that .

I'm not sure what you mean, but I get the feeling you didn't understand my comment.

[Massakkolia]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Listen, for those of you ladies that do not like how Isabella was sexualized in the game, I think there are a lot of us guys that feel the same way. For me, she was really the only valid choice for a LI (Merril was...nice, but between being a blood mage, and having the naivette of a 6 year old...). So, when the one available female my character can romance is made out to be a cheap floozy, with the morals of an alley cat, it did not exactly help the self esteem of the male Hawke that romanced her. Aveline would have been a much more ideal LI for the type of character I like to play, but she was not made available.

Actually many women who took time to get to know Isabela liked her in the game. In my experience, it is men with strong heterosexual identity (not all of course, most can handle her just fine), who seem to have an issue with her. Personally, she's my number one available romance choice in the game because she's self-assured and fun to be around. She's a very sexual person but not especially sexualised by the developers, again in the game.  As Maria said, this thread is about marketing and the way women are or are not portrayed in it. Marketing, especially in EA's case, seems to be a very different thing than the actual game.

Modifié par Ria, 22 avril 2012 - 02:14 .

[In Exile]

Ria wrote...

Actually many women who took time to get to know Isabela liked her in the game. In my experience, it is men with strong heterosexual identity (not all of course, most can handle her just fine), who seem to have an issue with her.

It's not heterosexual identity. It's heteroonormative views of relationships. Isabella is totally cool with (indeed, is essentially inclined to) an open relationship, and that ostensibly makes her some kind of (horrible, gender debasing explititive).

[Massakkolia]

In Exile wrote...

Ria wrote...

Actually many women who took time to get to know Isabela liked her in the game. In my experience, it is men with strong heterosexual identity (not all of course, most can handle her just fine), who seem to have an issue with her.

It's not heterosexual identity. It's heteroonormative views of relationships. Isabella is totally cool with (indeed, is essentially inclined to) an open relationship, and that ostensibly makes her some kind of (horrible, gender debasing explititive).

I think we are referring to the same thing. Heteronormativity, as I understand it, is about strongly identifying with heterosexual lifestyle (and not necessarily in accordance with the person's actual sexual orientation). I didn't want to use the term in order to avoid delving too deep into gender studies because not all in this forum are familiar with the terms.

As a non-native English speaker I might be wrong about my choice of words. In any case, I'm pretty sure we agree.

Modifié par Ria, 22 avril 2012 - 01:46 .

[Dakota Strider]

Ria wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Ria wrote...

Actually many women who took time to get to know Isabela liked her in the game. In my experience, it is men with strong heterosexual identity (not all of course, most can handle her just fine), who seem to have an issue with her.

It's not heterosexual identity. It's heteroonormative views of relationships. Isabella is totally cool with (indeed, is essentially inclined to) an open relationship, and that ostensibly makes her some kind of (horrible, gender debasing explititive).

I think we are referring to the same thing. Heteronormativity, as I understand it, is about strongly identifying with heterosexual lifestyle (and not necessarily in accordance with the person's actual sexual orientation). I didn't want to use the term in order to avoid delving too deep into gender studies because not all in this forum are familiar with the terms.

As a non-native English speaker I might be wrong about my choice of words. In any case, I'm pretty sure we agree.

As you said, English is not your native tongue.  You have made some well written posts, so I would not have noticed.  Just want to clarify a couple things.

Having heterosexual identiy just means that a person is only sexually attracted to the other sex.  Some hetero's believe in just one partner /relationship at a time.  Others are very active in pursuit of many partners and/or relationships.  This is true of both sexes. 
And those with homosexual identity, who find sexual attraction of their own sex (s/s), can have the same traits of preferring one partner/relationship,  or many.

(paraphrasing) So...I think when you said that men that are not totally cool with Isabella as a long term love interest, was because of heterosexual identity,  it would have been more accurate for you to say it was because of their moral philosophy on relationships.

I am guessing it is the same reason why many females that played DAO preferred Alistair over Zevron.  

[whykikyouwhy]

Dakota Strider wrote...

(paraphrasing) So...I think when you said that men that are not totally cool with Isabella as a long term love interest, was because of heterosexual identity,  it would have been more accurate for you to say it was because of their moral philosophy on relationships.

I am guessing it is the same reason why many females that played DAO preferred Alistair over Zevron.  

I don't want to attempt to speak for Ria, but I think she may have been referring more to social norms (and not necessarily a "moral" philosophy). At least that is how I read her posts.

Isabela and Zevran are both not keen on committed relationships - at least not until their romance arcs are fully developed. Thus, they represent individuals who prefer openness. It's not necessarily an immoral thing (depending on your POV, of course - some would say it is) - but between two consenting adults who are involved with one another, openness may be perfectly fine and welcome.

Society however dictates that couplings are monogamous, that two people eventually settle into committed relationships (possibly marriage). It's not necessarily "right" but merely what is the norm - and what is also supported by the representation of relationships in advertisement and entertainment. 

And within society, it has been long accepted or regarded as the norm, that men may be free with who they sleep with, without it marring their social standing and/or integrity of character. Whereas women who may have different partners are regarding in the negative. Thus, some folks have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction with regard to Isabela - they see her in the negative due to the fact that she may have had multiple lovers in her life. But male characters, in DA and in other games, may not be viewed in the same negative light because that behavior, from men, is not seen socially as something wrong. And in some cases, that behavior from men is applauded.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 22 avril 2012 - 03:30 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Dakota Strider wrote...

There is a lot to like about Isabella....and I doubt anyone expected her to act like a vestal virgin.  But they made her so over the top, it is almost every scene she says something, she is talking about sex.  I was in the Marines, and you do not hear guys there talking about sex there as the writers chose to do with Isabella in DA2.  

Oh, you're so right. Every scene with her, it was nothing but sex, sex, sex. Except when she was teaching Merrill about not betting what she isn't willing to part with. Or when telling Merrill about Llomerryn. Or when she was talking to Aveline about how hateful words from random people don't bother her, because they don't know her. Or when she was hatching a plan to get the relic. Or when she was buying Hawke a drink for being her friend. Or when she was making a joke about Hawke being such a stick-in-the-mud goody-goody for being her rival. Or when she was asking for Hawke's help to find Castillon. Or when she was play-acting in front of Velasco. Or when she brought the tome of Koslun back. Or when she jokes with Varric about stealing another Qunari relic. Or when she was joking with Varric about the crazy poet trying to woo her. Or when Varric asked her about how her ship wrecked.

Actually come to think of it, you're not right at all.

Isabela has a lot of aspects to her that don't involve sex. IMO, she has some of the best character building arcs in the game that any player can see if they bother to take her along and actually listen to her. Several people have written essays about how she exemplifies the ability to be sexual without being objectified, and how special that is. But if you treat her like a shallow, sex-crazed bimbo, then you likely won't ever see past that.

[Massakkolia]

Dakota Strider wrote...

As you said, English is not your native tongue.  You have made some well written posts, so I would not have noticed.  Just want to clarify a couple things.

Having heterosexual identiy just means that a person is only sexually attracted to the other sex.  Some hetero's believe in just one partner /relationship at a time.  Others are very active in pursuit of many partners and/or relationships.  This is true of both sexes. 
And those with homosexual identity, who find sexual attraction of their own sex (s/s), can have the same traits of preferring one partner/relationship,  or many.

(paraphrasing) So...I think when you said that men that are not totally cool with Isabella as a long term love interest, was because of heterosexual identity,  it would have been more accurate for you to say it was because of their moral philosophy on relationships.

I am guessing it is the same reason why many females that played DAO preferred Alistair over Zevron.  

Oh dear. 

I do appreciate you taking time to explain me the unfathomable differences between various sexual orientations. That was very kind of you, thank you very much!

Regardless, I can assure you I know those differences very well and, as kindly stated above, was speaking about social norms and how a strong identification with a specific sexual orientation may alter those norms.

When I was referring to my English skills, I was merely wondering if "heteronormative" is a prevalent term that is commonly used in English conversations and whether it has same connotations around the world (being a fairly recently coined term, sometime in the 90s, I believe). In my native tongue, it's more restricted to academic circles and that's why I avoided it's use.

This talk about sexual identities and semantics is unfortunately derailing the topic a bit. The OP wanted us to discuss the visibility of women in Bioware marketing. 

I didn't like the beauty contest Bioware organized around female Shepard for ME3 but I do think they took some small steps towards inclusivity. I wish the marketing would focus more on the companions and narrative role playing aspects of all Bioware games. Those are the strong points that could appeal to a large audience. (And yes, I know tactical combat, skill trees etc. are appealing to many gamers as well but those don't really have a PR impact)

Less random "iconic" white men, please. If iconic main characters are here to stay, I'd prefer one male and one female representing different ethnicities. They should be marketed side by side so that the variety of customization would be clear to customers. The ability to identify with the main character is a strong selling point and it is lost to most potential buyers if the box has a burly caucasian Hawke in the cover.

Modifié par Ria, 22 avril 2012 - 04:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

Ria wrote...

I do appreciate you taking time to explain me the unfathomable differences between various sexual orientations. That was very kind of you, thank you very much!

Ria wrote...

When I was referring to my English skills, I was merely wondering if "heteronormative" is a prevalent term that is commonly used in English conversations and whether it has same connotations around the world (being a fairly recently coined term, sometime in the 90s, I believe). In my native tongue, it's more restricted to academic circles and that's why I avoided it's use.

I've only seen it used by feminists and people interested in queer theory.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 avril 2012 - 09:16 .

[Ianamus]

I agree that it's a problem, but I'm not entirely sure what the ideal solution would be. They could show a female protagonist in the advert, but then that could make it appear to people who are unfamiliar with the game that the protagonist is set as female (I'd have no problem with this but I'm sure some would). 

They could advertise the fact that you can "create your own character" and show clips of both the male and the female protagonist, although I'm still not sure how that would work. 

As for women being reduced to sex symbls: I agree that Isabela was in the DA:2 cinematic trailer, but I thought that Morrigan and Leliana were handled well in the Origins cinematic trailer. If I rememebr it just shows leliana doing acrobatics and shooting enemies and Morrigan turning into a spider, neither of which are particuarly sexual. 

[FieryDove]

EJ107 wrote...
I agree that it's a problem, but I'm not entirely sure what the ideal solution would be. They could show a female protagonist in the advert, but then that could make it appear to people who are unfamiliar with the game that the protagonist is set as female (I'd have no problem with this but I'm sure some would).
They could advertise the fact that you can "create your own character" and show clips of both the male and the female protagonist, although I'm still not sure how that would work.

They could make boxart like JE had, it showed one of the male and female's that could be played. Wu and Ming if I remember right. And then do game trailers with both or seperate ones.

I do agree advertising create your own character male or female (and race if they ever have that option again) would be a great step in the right direction.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Isabela has a lot of aspects to her that don't involve sex. IMO, she has some of the best character building arcs in the game that any player can see if they bother to take her along and actually listen to her. Several people have written essays about how she exemplifies the ability to be sexual without being objectified, and how special that is. But if you treat her like a shallow, sex-crazed bimbo, then you likely won't ever see past that.

Yes, but she will still sleep with any lanky elves you run across even *if* you romance her.

Like I have said before if they had let us create lanky elves instead of human only - F and Z would not have stood a chance, she would have too interested in us. Ah well.

Modifié par FieryDove, 23 avril 2012 - 01:43 .

[whykikyouwhy]

FieryDove wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Isabela has a lot of aspects to her that don't involve sex. IMO, she has some of the best character building arcs in the game that any player can see if they bother to take her along and actually listen to her. Several people have written essays about how she exemplifies the ability to be sexual without being objectified, and how special that is. But if you treat her like a shallow, sex-crazed bimbo, then you likely won't ever see past that.

Yes, but she will still sleep with any lanky elves you run across even *if* you romance her.

Like I have said before if they had let us create lanky elves instead of human only - F and Z would not have stood a chance, she would have too interested in us. Ah well.

Not to delve too much into spoilers, but...

I believe that if a Hawke-Isabela romance is still active, when meeting a certain "lanky elf" character, you could choose a dialogue option that prompts Isabela to not run off with said elf. So, she really doesn't sleep with any lanky types she runs across. 

[BroBear Berbil]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

 Let me first say that I'm a girl. Just in case my avatar didn't clue you in. And I also play video-games. Shocking, I know.

<_<

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

This is an issue of the
chicken and the egg. You are implying that males are naturally more
interested in games. Which is just False. Look at tetris and solitaire.
Or any Facebook game, really. If they weren't actively driving girls
away, via marketing and/or game design decisions, I doubt that this
would be an issue at all.

I don't think that because women play Farmville or Angry Birds means they're as likely to play another genre of games. EA's marketing doesn't really seem to target a universal male audience anyway. It's more of a XTREME MOUNTAIN DEW DORITOS GAMERFUEL FUS ROH DAH demographic.

Modifié par OnionXI, 23 avril 2012 - 08:11 .

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

OnionXI wrote...

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

 Let me first say that I'm a girl. Just in case my avatar didn't clue you in. And I also play video-games. Shocking, I know.

<_<

Agreed. In case it made you feel uncomfortable, I apologize. I was trying to make the comparison between what the DA ads assume their target audience is, and what their actual audience was. Clearly, it wasn't effective. Although, it did keep people reading.

EA's marketing doesn't really seem to target a universal male audience
anyway. It's more of a XTREME MOUNTAIN DEW DORITOS GAMERFUEL FUS ROH DAH
demographic.

I also agree. But while they only target a subsection of their potential male audience, they almost completely exclude (in their marketing at least--not talking about the game) their female audience. So, in broadening their marketing towards a larger audience which, hopefully, includes females, they'll also be marketing towards male gamers that are not, as you said, the "FUS ROH DAH" demographic. Win-win for everyone!

I don't think that because women play Farmville or Angry Birds means they're as likely to play another genre of games.

Don't forget The Sims. As far as I can tell, it's extremely popular among a female audience. But, going deeper into what you said, I think it's interesting to breakdown the appeal of a RPG game like Dragon Age.

First, you've got the story, which, most notably, is interactive  Second, you've got the actual game mechanics, which include stuff like character stats, combat tactics, or button-mashing (if you're like my brother).

Ok, so story wise, I think the perfect examples are books. According to NPR, women read more than men. A notable statistic within the article is that men make up only 20% of the fiction market. This implies that, yes, women are interested in stories. (As a side-note, I think it's pretty interesting to look at which gender is more associated with role-playing as children. Girls, in my experience, are much more likely to play house--a friend's daughter literally spends hours role-playing as a magical unicorn. It's pretty adorable, actually).

Now, the second aspect: game mechanics. Games like Angry Birds and Tetris are pretty much only about the game-mechanics. Seeing as these games are not unpopular among women, I think we can safely assume that game-mechanics are not a feature that only appeals to the male demographic.

In my opinion, the only reasonable explanation for why men play more RPGs is that marketing/game design decisions are actively repelling women. Look at TERA, for example. It practically screams "males only". I wouldn't touch that game with a 10-foot pole.  Luckily, DA is no where near that bad.

But that doesn't mean it's good, either.

[Aly666]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

 Let me first say that I'm a girl. Just in case my avatar didn't clue you in. And I also play video-games. Shocking, I know.

I'm going to be frank here: the marketing for the past dragon age games has been extremely one-sided. The dragon age franchise has, overall, been very inclusive of female gamers. But if you were judging the game based on the ads, you would never know. 

And I do understand why this is. It all comes down to Dogs and Smurfs. 
But I wish it didn't. 

This and more!