283 réponses à ce sujet

[LelianaHawke]

The thing is... the way I played my Shepard she couldn't forgive Liara for abandoning her.

I don't *hate* Liara. I dislike how the game forces a measure of forgiveness on my Shepard. The way around this is my Shepard was really rude to Liara whenever she appeared.

The thing I don't like is this basically cuts a lot of content from the game. There's no option to experience it with another character that my Shepard doesn't see as a two-timing hussy.In places the game feels like an action game because the only roleplaying options are with Liara. Conveniently ignoring other characters standing right nearby... who you can't talk to because bioware only gave significant voice actor resources to Liara.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 23 avril 2012 - 03:27 .

[CptData]

pprrff wrote...

I have a theory why so many anti liara post pop up, it is actually make sense given how beware writes returning character.

Everyone from ME1 except VS is written as true companion to Shepard with whom they share a deep bond. The problem is that not everyone likes all their squad mate that, it can be confusing to find that liara is your bff when you ignored her in the last game. Tali and Garrus too, but slot more people like them so less complaints.

So the root of the problem is that bioware didn't let player choice matter when we neglect them. Plus you get a chance to kill off people you hate. Killing Tali in ME2 make me less annoyed with her and like her better in sbusequent saves. People don't get catharsis with Liara in game so they pile it on here.

I think all the hate / dislike simply aims at the wrong spot: Liara doesn't deserve to be hated. As I stated before, it's more or less a story telling fault OR a fault of the illusion your choices do matter.

They don't. It has been an illusion all time, however, ME1 was really good in making that illusion feeling real. I can say the same about ME2 since you -really- can make a difference in "who lives, who dies". So ME1 and ME2 are pretty much perfect in that field, including the romances. Players choices HAD an influence on the athmosphere, on the feelings, even on the outcome of the ending (of ME1 / ME2).

However, in Mass Effect 3, all those choices don't matter anymore. Most choices are condensed to a number for your War Assets. The illusion of choices do matter fails. Whatever you do, in the endings it doesn't make much of a difference. It's all the same.
And it also shows for the LIs. Your choices do matter no longer. Primary LI is Liara, period. If you didn't romance Liara, you won't get a perfect romance. If you didn't romance Liara, Ashley or Kaidan, your LI won't get an own flashback screen. If you picked a romance from ME2, you won't have a good closure for any of them.

Means: Choices do no longer matter. ME3 fails in that field. A core feature - scrapped 'cause lack of time, money or too many options to deal with. Also displayed by autodialogue!Shepard.

I say it again: the core feature of the series, your choices do matter got gimped: previous choices do no longer matter that much, current choices are usually "left hand, right hand" style.

So it's kinda unfair to unload a lot of hatred on Liara - it doesn't make sense. Instead of, ME3 as a game needs to be critizised. Why got everything we loved removed? Why's Liara suddenly the series primary ('cause only fully developed) romance option? 


That's it.
Your choices do no longer matter. The galaxy is always screwed, regardless if you go down a paragon path or the renegade way - and all leads to a final A-B-C decision with bad endings. If you don't pick the series primary romance, you won't get a full romance arc.

*rant*

Modifié par CptData, 23 avril 2012 - 03:34 .

[lillitheris]

LelianaHawke wrote...

The thing is... the way I played my Shepard she couldn't forgive Liara for abandoning her.

I don't *hate* Liara. I dislike how the game forces a measure of forgiveness on my Shepard. The way around this is my Shepard was really rude to Liara whenever she appeared.

The thing I don't like is this basically cuts a lot of content from the game. There's no option to experience it with another character that my Shepard doesn't see as a two-timing hussy.In places the game feels like an action game because the only roleplaying options are with Liara. Conveniently ignoring other characters standing right nearby... who you can't talk to because bioware only gave significant voice actor resources to Liara.

So, could we compile the cases and discussions* where there should be an option to move the discussion to some other character (and who)? You can piggyback on my dialogue change thread, or post here, or we could start a new thread for just that purpose.


* In ME3, since it's too late for the other two.

[LelianaHawke]

We could do that, but it'd be a lot of work for the game...

One example is the time capsule scene. Choices would matter much more in the game if your romance choice determined what kind of thing happens.

So if you romanced someone other than Liara, no time capsule was left at all. Rather, you did some other thing at that point.

That would make sense if your Shepard had no real interest in archeology.

At the end reviewing memories scene, if you romanced Kelly, for example, instead of reviewing memories you could go talk to refugees, because your exposure to that character's priorities made you care more about that than looking inward.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 23 avril 2012 - 03:38 .

[lillitheris]

LelianaHawke wrote...

We could do that, but it'd be a lot of work for the game...

Oh, certainly. But isn't it better to try to effect change than to just go on trading embittered barbs for all eternity?

One example is the time capsule scene. Choices would matter much more in the game if your romance choice determined what kind of thing happens.

So if you romanced someone other than Liara, no time capsule was left at all. Rather, you did some other thing at that point.

That would make sense if your Shepard had no real interest in archeology.

I think the time capsule is eminently sensible (even just from a military standpoint), and Liara is probably the best to create it both as an archeaologist and an information specialist…but if you have more of a business relationship with her (i.e. not LI, have taken mostly Renegade/neutral conversation options), then I think it could definitely work more as a notification type thing: Liara just says that she's created a bunch of these capsules with vital info and will get them buried in various places. Even in an email for the least development resources, although a proper scene would be better of course.

A slightly more elaborate version would have Liara invite you and your LI to have them do the part about you, or maybe show a message they've recorded for you if the LI is not on the Normandy?

At the end reviewing memories scene, if you romanced Kelly, for example, instead of reviewing memories you could go talk to refugees, because your exposure to that character's priorities made you care more about that than looking inward.

Interesting, that sounds like a good idea. Everyone wouldn't like to do that, of course, but you could easily script it based on going to different locations?

Modifié par lillitheris, 23 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[rubynorman]

LelianaHawke wrote...

The thing is... the way I played my Shepard she couldn't forgive Liara for abandoning her.

I don't *hate* Liara. I dislike how the game forces a measure of forgiveness on my Shepard. The way around this is my Shepard was really rude to Liara whenever she appeared.

Did you talk to her, do her missions in ME2 and do the LotSB DLC. If you can't forgive her after that, I don't know
www.youtube.com/watch maybe you haven't seen this.
If you dislike the time she got, make a topic requesting DLC for your LI. It's better than sitting here and dislike her.

Modifié par rubynorman, 23 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[Lucky Thirteen]

Blue da ba dee dabba da-ee dabba dee-a dabba da da ba dabba da dabba dee-a dabba da da ba dee dabba daaaaaaaaaaa

[LelianaHawke]

If you dislike the time she got, make a topic requesting DLC for your LI. It's better than sitting here and dislike her.

I already do a fair bit of stuff for my LI. I have a comic filling in the gaps for mine, and I submitted three slides to the Love Interest Appreciation Project.

But stating opinions is not a bad thing. I don't jump to enrage every time someone starts a 'Kelly has space diseases' discussion.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 23 avril 2012 - 04:15 .

[pprrff]

CptData wrote...

I think all the hate / dislike simply aims at the wrong spot: Liara doesn't deserve to be hated. As I stated before, it's more or less a story telling fault OR a fault of the illusion your choices do matter.

They don't. It has been an illusion all time, however, ME1 was really good in making that illusion feeling real. I can say the same about ME2 since you -really- can make a difference in "who lives, who dies". So ME1 and ME2 are pretty much perfect in that field, including the romances. Players choices HAD an influence on the athmosphere, on the feelings, even on the outcome of the ending (of ME1 / ME2).

However, in Mass Effect 3, all those choices don't matter anymore. Most choices are condensed to a number for your War Assets. The illusion of choices do matter fails. Whatever you do, in the endings it doesn't make much of a difference. It's all the same.
And it also shows for the LIs. Your choices do matter no longer. Primary LI is Liara, period. If you didn't romance Liara, you won't get a perfect romance. If you didn't romance Liara, Ashley or Kaidan, your LI won't get an own flashback screen. If you picked a romance from ME2, you won't have a good closure for any of them.

Means: Choices do no longer matter. ME3 fails in that field. A core feature - scrapped 'cause lack of time, money or too many options to deal with. Also displayed by autodialogue!Shepard.

I say it again: the core feature of the series, your choices do matter got gimped: previous choices do no longer matter that much, current choices are usually "left hand, right hand" style.

So it's kinda unfair to unload a lot of hatred on Liara - it doesn't make sense. Instead of, ME3 as a game needs to be critizised. Why got everything we loved removed? Why's Liara suddenly the series primary ('cause only fully developed) romance option? 


That's it.
Your choices do no longer matter. The galaxy is always screwed, regardless if you go down a paragon path or the renegade way - and all leads to a final A-B-C decision with bad endings. If you don't pick the series primary romance, you won't get a full romance arc.

*rant*

Well, we are in agreement then. Bioware just assumed that the player loved each and all characters, so they wrote them in such way. Honestly, if you loved every squadmates, then all of the scenes made sense. Even if Liara wasn't your LI, she was still you best asari friend, and of course it's not creepy at all when she writes fan fic about you in a time capsule.

It is kinda weird that you can romance VS or Liara in ME3 if you didn't do it on ME1. They should have made Vega a female LI and another female character instead of (or addition to) EDI so that together with Traynor or Cortez, it covers the bases for all hetero/gay male/female love interests for the first time player without throwing out decisions made in the last two games.

[rubynorman]

LelianaHawke wrote...

If you dislike the time she got, make a topic requesting DLC for your LI. It's better than sitting here and dislike her.

I already do a fair bit of stuff for my LI. I have a comic filling in the gaps for mine, and I submitted three slides to the Love Interest Appreciation Project.

But stating opinions is not a bad thing. I don't jump to enrage every time someone starts a 'Kelly has space diseases' discussion.

But you dislike her because got more time in the game. It's kind of a weird reason IMO. You should dislike Bioware or the writers not her IMO again.

Modifié par rubynorman, 23 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[LelianaHawke]

But I specifically said I don't hate her.

I am not Shepard. Shepard may not trust her, but that doesn't mean I have those feelings.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

I'm not really the biggest Liara fan, but can someone tell me how shes forced into the player?

[rubynorman]

LelianaHawke wrote...

But I specifically said I don't hate her.

I am not Shepard. Shepard may not trust her, but that doesn't mean I have those feelings.

I'm sorry for using the wrong word, I edited it before seeing this post. Some dislike James and can't do anthing about it too. Some don't want to work with Ceberus in ME2 but they have to work with them. Liara's role is pretty important in ME3, Shep's XO so.. Bioware and the writer have to give her more time and make Shep to trust her I guess.

[BatmanPWNS]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not really the biggest Liara fan, but can someone tell me how shes forced into the player?

Read through the previous pages...

[Khajiit Jzargo]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not really the biggest Liara fan, but can someone tell me how shes forced into the player?

Read through the previous pages...

I did. I do understand that she is the canon romance and yes she is a writing pet. But I never felt she was forced, in Me1 I said I wasn't interented and that was it, in Me3 I said I just wanted to be friends and that was it. Maybe she does come across as a little to flirty, but I never felt she was "forced" into me.

[LelianaHawke]

It's because if you don't pick the Liara romance you miss out on content.

If you romance someone else, your romance is much shorter. Hence the feeling of being forced into experiencing the whole of a story.

The pro-Liara people are basically saying that everyone but them must put up with this.This is seen in arguments that say "Why would you hate her... she's the most developed character." That's exactly the problem.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 23 avril 2012 - 04:52 .

[rubynorman]

LelianaHawke wrote...

The pro-Liara people are basically saying that everyone but them must put up with this.This is seen in arguments that say "Why would you hate her... she's the most developed character." That's exactly the problem.

But the problem is why would you hate her you should hate Bioware / the writers or request DLC for your LI .

[Degs29]

She's the beautiful, shy, nerdy girl who grows up through the series to be independent, but still able to lean on Shepard when times call for it.  I can see why some people wouldn't be into that, but I can also see how others would.  It's all personal preference. 

Take for instance, Tali.  Some people love her, I personally don't think she's that interesting at all.  I still think she's a well fleshed-out character.

[LelianaHawke]

I liked the way Tali died in the suicide mission.

[insomniac13]

Liara is awesome because she's sweet, noble, layered, intelligent and is all sexy blue goodness!

(Ali Hillis being her voice actress certainly doesn't hurt!)

Modifié par insomniac13, 23 avril 2012 - 05:54 .

[CuseGirl]

pprrff wrote...

I have a theory why so many anti liara post pop up, it is actually make sense given how beware writes returning character.

Everyone from ME1 except VS is written as true companion to Shepard with whom they share a deep bond. The problem is that not everyone likes all their squad mate that, it can be confusing to find that liara is your bff when you ignored her in the last game. Tali and Garrus too, but slot more people like them so less complaints.

So the root of the problem is that bioware didn't let player choice matter when we neglect them. Plus you get a chance to kill off people you hate. Killing Tali in ME2 make me less annoyed with her and like her better in sbusequent saves. People don't get catharsis with Liara in game so they pile it on here.

To the bolded part, I agree. I would also juxtapose that statement with "Everyone in ME-2 is written as people you just sorta know and are going out of your way to re-connect with, including your LI". As a player who didn't play ME-1, I really have to stretch my RPG genes when Tali and Garrus are allegedly really important to me and characters from ME-2 are just along for the ride as War assets.

[Tom Lehrer]

Barquiel wrote...


There were some people in this thread who called Liara fans pedophile, despite the fact that the game clearly tells you she's an adult (by asari standarts) for approximately 50 years. That's not civilized, it's simply trolling.

Who said that about Liara fans? I made a short comment on some of the creepy stuff said within this thread but have not posted or read a comment in which someone called Liara fans pedophiles.

[CptData]

pprrff wrote...

*cut*

Well, we are in agreement then. Bioware just assumed that the player loved each and all characters, so they wrote them in such way. Honestly, if you loved every squadmates, then all of the scenes made sense. Even if Liara wasn't your LI, she was still you best asari friend, and of course it's not creepy at all when she writes fan fic about you in a time capsule.

It is kinda weird that you can romance VS or Liara in ME3 if you didn't do it on ME1. They should have made Vega a female LI and another female character instead of (or addition to) EDI so that together with Traynor or Cortez, it covers the bases for all hetero/gay male/female love interests for the first time player without throwing out decisions made in the last two games.

Must say, your statement confuses me. How's that possible? I mean the statement about "BW assumend the player loves all characters".

I said it before: choices should do matter - seriously. I know, it's incredible hard to realize that one. It was done quite good in ME1, was the most promiment feature in ME2 - and it got dropped in ME3.

So how's it possible BW assumed we would like the characters equally? ME was meant to be a series of roleplay games. That means, I'd love to play my character Shepard the way I love - that also includes friendships, romances or comradeships. Heck with it, even enmities should have been possible!
Again I need to say: "your choices do matter" was a key feature of the series. And still my choices don't matter since I can not choose what character is my friend, and what character is more a comrade I'd like to treat on a professional level.
For example: why's there no way to use a neutral path when talking to Liara in the "Farewell scene"? Either Shepard takes her gift - or he has to be a jerk to her. Why no "diplomatic way" telling Liara Shepard feels awkward since it's a really intimate thing he can't accept?
Meh ...

Lets stick with your statement: if BW assumed players love every single character equally, why are some characters more prominent than others? Why are several characters sidelined? That doesn't make much sense to me. I'm confused here.

Last paragraph: actually, only the "fresh" romance with Liara makes sense. Romancing the VS without ME1 doesn't make sense, not a bit. As soon as you start the romance, there's nearly no interaction with the VS anymore. And without the knowledge about the romance in ME1, I simply couldn't romance Ashley in ME3. Liara's romance feels complete in ME3, even without the romance in ME1 - it simply feels trilogy-spanning with ME1.

pprrff wrote...

I have a theory why so many anti liara post pop up, it is actually make sense given how beware writes returning character.

Everyone from ME1 except VS is written as true companion to Shepard with whom they share a deep bond.
The problem is that not everyone likes all their squad mate that, it can be confusing to find that liara is your bff when you ignored her in the last game. Tali and Garrus too, but slot more people like them so less complaints.

So the root of the problem is that bioware didn't let player choice matter when we neglect them. Plus you get a chance to kill off people you hate. Killing Tali in ME2 make me less annoyed with her and like her better in sbusequent saves. People don't  get catharsis with Liara in game so they pile it on here.

Missed that one.

It's interesting - that bolted line. The description (when creating a new Shepard from scratch in ME3) tells something about a "special bond" between the Virmire Survivor and Shepard. You just tell the exact opposite here: that special bond is missing.

So someone is wrong here: either you or the description.
I tell you something: you're not wrong.
It's the description - it's misleading. The special bond does never come in play at any portion of the game, neither when playing a game from scratch nor importing one from ME1/ME2. So where's that special bond? The VS has least interactions with Shepard of all squadmates. And nearly everything the VS and Shepard are talking about is connected to Cerberus in one or another way. No "good ol' times" like for Garrus, no real emotional connection like for Liara, no deep comradeship like for Wrex.

While Liara is the icon of "complete and awesome romance", the VS is the icon of "missed opportunities and lacking, incomplete content".

Modifié par CptData, 23 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[pprrff]

@CptData

When I said all the scenes made sense if you picked Liara to be your LI, I meant to say all the scenes of Liara made sense if you picked her. The whole time capsule, and melding thing made sense if you felt Liara was the closest character to Shepard. I didn't mean to say that sidelining characters or cutting out other made sense.

The best explaination I can come up with for giving Liara the spot light is that there is going to be a ME4, set in some future time, with enough time passed that everyone who isn't Liara T'Soni would have died of age regardless of what choices you made. Bioware will make her into what Flemth is for Dragon Age, a character that ties together everything of ME universe.

The apparent plot armor, long legivity and unconditional affection for Shepard, I thought it adds up pretty nicely to fit my semi-conspiracy theory.

As far as VS or ME2 characters, I guess the same thing that hit the ending hit them too. They went a long way improving the graphics and improving the combat, but with everything they promised us, Bioware just bit off more than they can chew. Over ambition, together with EA's deadline probably made the game what it is. I wouldn't be suprise if they recorded or wrote a bunch of lines for everyone, but had to jettison one scene after another because there weren't enough time to render or record or animate or code things into the game. 

Modifié par pprrff, 23 avril 2012 - 08:02 .

[CptData]

^ guess then ME ended with ME3 for me. I just don't want to run into more "Liara keeps everything together stuff". Besides that, the same role can be played by EDI - she'll live even longer than Liara *g*
I simply don't like that idea. Liara's story is told, like Shepard's - and it should stay that way, tbh.
Just think about it: if Liara's around in ME4, ME5, ... guess who's going to be the next protagonist's main LI?

Sorry. I'm just not into Liara and kinda feel cheated since my choice (Ashley) doesn't matter. It simply makes me sad. But guess I doubt anyone understands that.

Modifié par CptData, 23 avril 2012 - 08:03 .