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[Bowie Hawkins]

gearseffect wrote...

Ashley, James, Garrus, Primarch Victus, all left their home and saw it being destroyed ya didn't see them trying to start a fight with any one because they were p!ssed off at stupid BS.

None of them has had their entire belief system threatened by someone who's being a condescending jackass to them the way that Javik has been toward Liara for the entire time he's been on board the Normandy at that point.

[4stringwizard]

CptData wrote...

^ guess then ME ended with ME3 for me. I just don't want to run into more "Liara keeps everything together stuff". Besides that, the same role can be played by EDI - she'll live even longer than Liara *g*
I simply don't like that idea. Liara's story is told, like Shepard's - and it should stay that way, tbh.
Just think about it: if Liara's around in ME4, ME5, ... guess who's going to be the next protagonist's main LI?

Sorry. I'm just not into Liara and kinda feel cheated since my choice (Ashley) doesn't matter. It simply makes me sad. But guess I doubt anyone understands that.

I'm one of the few who liked Ashley in ME1, and even though I romanced Tali in the next two, I agree Ashley definitely gets cheated in ME3.  Her trust issues are really overdone, and if you didn't romance her, she basically has nothing to say for most of the game.  

Nobody here is hating on Liara (at least not most).  Those who are getting offended need to chill out.  We are just upset at Bioware lavishing attention on her while cheating everyone else.  It's true Bioware forces her down our throats, in a sense.  They force Shepard to be BFFs with her even if you didn't romance her.  I had to shake my head at the scene where Shepard first meets her and says to Vega "She's the best!"  Come on. 

And you CAN'T say the extra attention is because she wasn't in ME2, because neither was Ashley/Kaiden, and they still don't get the focus Liara enjoys.  And they were in ME2 far less than Liara was, btw.  Both had a single interaction with Shepard and that was it.  No re-visiting them like you can with Liara, no DLC that gives them more time in the game.  And for those of you who defend her by saying "BUT SHE RECOVERED SHEPARD'S BODY!!!!!", that just shows even more how she's the writers' favorite and is given unfair attention over everyone else.  Aside from Shepard, she's the biggest Mary Sue in the series.  <_<

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 24 avril 2012 - 02:12 .

[CptData]

^ The more I think about it, it definitely has something to do with the series' lead writer Mac Walters. It's a well known fact Liara is his "waifu" - favorite character. That's okay, every writer has a favorite character.

What irks me more is that I believe Mac also has a strong dislike towards the VS. I dunno why, but that's exactly how it feels. Remember ME1? Ash, Kaidan and Liara had equal romance arcs. None of them was sidelined - and the romances with Ash/Kaidan had an extra layer of drama since none could happen without a sacrifice.

Stuff changed in ME2: the VS got sidelined, Liara got an extra DLC that also deepened the romance.
And in ME3 it was straight obvious. Out of the three original romances, only Liara got a proper treatment. The other two were sidelined for half of the game - the second half, as soon as the VS is back on board. I mean, what the?

If you create a new Shepard from scratch, the description of Ashley/Kaidan says, Shepard and the VS grew an incredible strong bond. That bond never got displayed in the actual game. It's difficult to save the VS in the Udina Coup. New gamers won't ever find out why the VS is special if they do not visit him/her at the hospital. Liara on the other side has her full blown amazing romance arc right on board of the Normandy, she does a lot to get Shepard's (the players) attention.

'nuff said.

The VS got a sh*tty treatment compared against Liara. But instead of hating Liara - I dislike the writers decision to do it that way.

[Jake Boone]

CptData wrote...

^ The more I think about it, it definitely has something to do with the series' lead writer Mac Walters. It's a well known fact Liara is his "waifu" - favorite character. That's okay, every writer has a favorite character.

What irks me more is that I believe Mac also has a strong dislike towards the VS. I dunno why, but that's exactly how it feels. Remember ME1? Ash, Kaidan and Liara had equal romance arcs. None of them was sidelined - and the romances with Ash/Kaidan had an extra layer of drama since none could happen without a sacrifice.

Stuff changed in ME2: the VS got sidelined, Liara got an extra DLC that also deepened the romance.
And in ME3 it was straight obvious. Out of the three original romances, only Liara got a proper treatment. The other two were sidelined for half of the game - the second half, as soon as the VS is back on board. I mean, what the?

If you create a new Shepard from scratch, the description of Ashley/Kaidan says, Shepard and the VS grew an incredible strong bond. That bond never got displayed in the actual game. It's difficult to save the VS in the Udina Coup. New gamers won't ever find out why the VS is special if they do not visit him/her at the hospital. Liara on the other side has her full blown amazing romance arc right on board of the Normandy, she does a lot to get Shepard's (the players) attention.

'nuff said.

The VS got a sh*tty treatment compared against Liara. But instead of hating Liara - I dislike the writers decision to do it that way.

This. My main problem with Liara isn't Liara. It's the fact that her arc recieved more attention than any other LI by a long shot (possible exception is Garrus). I'm not saying that they should diminish the amount of screentime Liara gets, just give everyone else, especailly the non-squadmate LIs, more screen time. Then the majority of fans, regardless of favorite LI, should be happy.

[CptData]

That reminds me on writing another big essay.

Seriously - choices do matter - where? Autodialogue, Liara being BFF or primary romance, no different endings except the color ... uhh ... yeah.

ME3 could have needed another year of development.

[d-boy15]

why she so great? why she got more attention? easy... bisexual romance option.

I not hate her, I just don't found any interesting in her character, she is too perfect.

Modifié par d-boy15, 24 avril 2012 - 07:56 .

[Ageless Face]

CptData wrote...

^ guess then ME ended with ME3 for me. I just don't want to run into more "Liara keeps everything together stuff". Besides that, the same role can be played by EDI - she'll live even longer than Liara *g*
I simply don't like that idea. Liara's story is told, like Shepard's - and it should stay that way, tbh.
Just think about it: if Liara's around in ME4, ME5, ... guess who's going to be the next protagonist's main LI?

Sorry. I'm just not into Liara and kinda feel cheated since my choice (Ashley) doesn't matter. It simply makes me sad. But guess I doubt anyone understands that.

If she will be in ME4, then it probobly won't be as an LI. And even if she was, i don't believe many will romance her, since it feels like betraying Sheaprd (unless they really don't care about him/her). 
It will concern me more if ME4 is going to make Liara as Shepard LI no matter what you chose before. If the writers's love for liara will continue as it did until now, it's not unlikely.

[pprrff]

HagarIshay wrote...


If she will be in ME4, then it probobly won't be as an LI. And even if she was, i don't believe many will romance her, since it feels like betraying Sheaprd (unless they really don't care about him/her). 
It will concern me more if ME4 is going to make Liara as Shepard LI no matter what you chose before. If the writers's love for liara will continue as it did until now, it's not unlikely.

But they will establish cannon that Liara and Shepard had offsprings together, and the offspring of Shepard-Liara will become a female LI for the protaganist of ME4. I just want to say that I called it here and now, I am going to revisit this thread 3 years from now and bask in my clairvoyance^_^

[Ageless Face]

pprrff wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...


If she will be in ME4, then it probobly won't be as an LI. And even if she was, i don't believe many will romance her, since it feels like betraying Sheaprd (unless they really don't care about him/her). 
It will concern me more if ME4 is going to make Liara as Shepard LI no matter what you chose before. If the writers's love for liara will continue as it did until now, it's not unlikely.

But they will establish cannon that Liara and Shepard had offsprings together, and the offspring of Shepard-Liara will become a female LI for the protaganist of ME4. I just want to say that I called it here and now, I am going to revisit this thread 3 years from now and bask in my clairvoyance^_^

I never actually believed it until you wrote it! 
Oh wait, for that we need a living Shepard. Then i guess we are saved from little blue tentacle-head Shepards. Sorry Liara fans:P. 

[pprrff]

HagarIshay wrote...

pprrff wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...


If she will be in ME4, then it probobly won't be as an LI. And even if she was, i don't believe many will romance her, since it feels like betraying Sheaprd (unless they really don't care about him/her). 
It will concern me more if ME4 is going to make Liara as Shepard LI no matter what you chose before. If the writers's love for liara will continue as it did until now, it's not unlikely.

But they will establish cannon that Liara and Shepard had offsprings together, and the offspring of Shepard-Liara will become a female LI for the protaganist of ME4. I just want to say that I called it here and now, I am going to revisit this thread 3 years from now and bask in my clairvoyance^_^

I never actually believed it until you wrote it! 
Oh wait, for that we need a living Shepard. Then i guess we are saved from little blue tentacle-head Shepards. Sorry Liara fans:P. 

Could still happen, Bioware has shown that they are perfectly willing to throw out canon whenever it suits them, all they have to do is:

a) say that now asari can reproduce from previous melds (remember the cipher on Feros, you can't avoid that one, no matter what)
say that Shepard always accepted Liara's little gift at near the end of ME3
c) say that Liara did a little more than just recover Shepard's body (that's creepy, i know)

I still stand on my prediction, even if most of my prediction for ME3 turned out to be wrong

[Ageless Face]

pprrff wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

pprrff wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...


If she will be in ME4, then it probobly won't be as an LI. And even if she was, i don't believe many will romance her, since it feels like betraying Sheaprd (unless they really don't care about him/her). 
It will concern me more if ME4 is going to make Liara as Shepard LI no matter what you chose before. If the writers's love for liara will continue as it did until now, it's not unlikely.

But they will establish cannon that Liara and Shepard had offsprings together, and the offspring of Shepard-Liara will become a female LI for the protaganist of ME4. I just want to say that I called it here and now, I am going to revisit this thread 3 years from now and bask in my clairvoyance^_^

I never actually believed it until you wrote it! 
Oh wait, for that we need a living Shepard. Then i guess we are saved from little blue tentacle-head Shepards. Sorry Liara fans:P. 

Could still happen, Bioware has shown that they are perfectly willing to throw out canon whenever it suits them, all they have to do is:

a) say that now asari can reproduce from previous melds (remember the cipher on Feros, you can't avoid that one, no matter what)
say that Shepard always accepted Liara's little gift at near the end of ME3
c) say that Liara did a little more than just recover Shepard's body (that's creepy, i know)

I still stand on my prediction, even if most of my prediction for ME3 turned out to be wrong

I think they are going to be a little more careful from now on about their games, though. But yes, i would not be surprised if it will happen. Bioware showed liara love in ME3 equall to her fans (and her fans only), and that, i believe, is not very professional. And i don't think i'm exaggerating on this. 

[Jake Boone]

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

gearseffect wrote...

Ashley, James, Garrus, Primarch Victus, all left their home and saw it being destroyed ya didn't see them trying to start a fight with any one because they were p!ssed off at stupid BS.

None of them has had their entire belief system threatened by someone who's being a condescending jackass to them the way that Javik has been toward Liara for the entire time he's been on board the Normandy at that point.

Two things.
One- Javik is a condescending jackass to everyone, not just Liara. It is his nature.
Two- Javik was right when he said that all of Asari society was based on what the Protheans had given them. Math, agriculture,writing are all things that the Protheans taught the Asari that the Turians, Humans, Salarians or Quarians had to learn for themselves. Throw in the fact that they had a hidden prothean beacon that they used to stay the most advanced and Javik is completely justified when he says that Asari culture is based on what the Protheans had given them

[CptData]

pprrff wrote...

But they will establish cannon that Liara and Shepard had offsprings together, and the offspring of Shepard-Liara will become a female LI for the protaganist of ME4. I just want to say that I called it here and now, I am going to revisit this thread 3 years from now and bask in my clairvoyance^_^

That's another option I simply don't want to see. Liara can have children, no issue. She even can have them with Shepard - if you use an imported ME3!save with her as LI. But in case she was not your LI, Liara's daughter(s) shouldn't have Shepard as dad ...

[4stringwizard]

Jake Boone wrote...

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

gearseffect wrote...

Ashley, James, Garrus, Primarch Victus, all left their home and saw it being destroyed ya didn't see them trying to start a fight with any one because they were p!ssed off at stupid BS.

None of them has had their entire belief system threatened by someone who's being a condescending jackass to them the way that Javik has been toward Liara for the entire time he's been on board the Normandy at that point.

Two things.
One- Javik is a condescending jackass to everyone, not just Liara. It is his nature.
Two- Javik was right when he said that all of Asari society was based on what the Protheans had given them. Math, agriculture,writing are all things that the Protheans taught the Asari that the Turians, Humans, Salarians or Quarians had to learn for themselves. Throw in the fact that they had a hidden prothean beacon that they used to stay the most advanced and Javik is completely justified when he says that Asari culture is based on what the Protheans had given them

^^^  This.  

[Ice Cold J]

It could be argued that she is the face of ME, Shepard aside. She is the only one guaranteed to be in all three games, which says something.
I thought her character a bit overrated in ME1, better in ME2, and still good in ME3.
I think that some take her too seriously, but there are also the Talimancers, Garrus' fan base, Miranda's ooglers, etc. Everyone has their own following.

[MidnightRaith]

Jake Boone wrote...

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

gearseffect wrote...

Ashley, James, Garrus, Primarch Victus, all left their home and saw it being destroyed ya didn't see them trying to start a fight with any one because they were p!ssed off at stupid BS.

None of them has had their entire belief system threatened by someone who's being a condescending jackass to them the way that Javik has been toward Liara for the entire time he's been on board the Normandy at that point.

Two things.
One- Javik is a condescending jackass to everyone, not just Liara. It is his nature.
Two- Javik was right when he said that all of Asari society was based on what the Protheans had given them. Math, agriculture,writing are all things that the Protheans taught the Asari that the Turians, Humans, Salarians or Quarians had to learn for themselves. Throw in the fact that they had a hidden prothean beacon that they used to stay the most advanced and Javik is completely justified when he says that Asari culture is based on what the Protheans had given them

It goes both ways. So, because Javik's jackass remarks are personality traits means that he shouldn't be called out on them? Ever? Yes, the Protheans heavily influenced the Asari and yes, he is justified in saying so. However, is he justified in throwing it in her face while her planet burns around them? There is a time and place for these things and there are respectful ways in pointing them out. But, since Javik is a jackass to everyone it means that Liara is completely out of line for getting angry with him, right?  Let's just ignore the fact that Javik was out of line as well. In my opinion, Shepard handles the situation perfectly, especially if you take the Paragon interrupt. He/she forces some sense into Liara and then has Javik apologize. Both were being unreasonable and both were handled. To take one side or the other doesn't make much sense to me.

It doesn't matter to me that Javik doesn't mean the things he says to Liara if you make him do so. What matters is the fact that he swallows his pride and does it. It also matters that if you don't take the interrupt, then Liara realizes what she's doing, and forcibly calms down. She may say that she's doing so because there has been enough bloodshed, but I believe she also calms herself because she realizes that she's going too far.

I don't know. IMO, people are too eager to hate on Liara for various reasons. This one is not a good one to bring up because people ignore Javik's role in this completely. They also seem to ignore the fact that both can eventually act like adults when it comes to one another and learn to respect each other. If you don't like Liara, that's fine, however, don't do so irrationally.

[CuseGirl]

CptData wrote...

^ guess then ME ended with ME3 for me. I just don't want to run into more "Liara keeps everything together stuff". Besides that, the same role can be played by EDI - she'll live even longer than Liara *g*
I simply don't like that idea. Liara's story is told, like Shepard's - and it should stay that way, tbh.
Just think about it: if Liara's around in ME4, ME5, ... guess who's going to be the next protagonist's main LI?

Sorry. I'm just not into Liara and kinda feel cheated since my choice (Ashley) doesn't matter. It simply makes me sad. But guess I doubt anyone understands that.

The VS got rocked with this writing team and EA's deadlines....but at least you got a legit romance scene, got a little skin and everything. Miranda just whines about the control chip and then falls onto the bed with Shepard, don't even get a visible kiss....

[Ageless Face]

CuseGirl wrote...

CptData wrote...

^ guess then ME ended with ME3 for me. I just don't want to run into more "Liara keeps everything together stuff". Besides that, the same role can be played by EDI - she'll live even longer than Liara *g*
I simply don't like that idea. Liara's story is told, like Shepard's - and it should stay that way, tbh.
Just think about it: if Liara's around in ME4, ME5, ... guess who's going to be the next protagonist's main LI?

Sorry. I'm just not into Liara and kinda feel cheated since my choice (Ashley) doesn't matter. It simply makes me sad. But guess I doubt anyone understands that.

The VS got rocked with this writing team and EA's deadlines....but at least you got a legit romance scene, got a little skin and everything. Miranda just whines about the control chip and then falls onto the bed with Shepard, don't even get a visible kiss....

Yeah, and Miranda was the one who got the best of the ME2 romances (aside from Garrus and Tali).
Thane dies, Jacob cheated on you, And jack you see her for, like, two secnes.
But the VS didn't get much at all. Ashley and Kaidan were only at the half of the game (when you could have killed them or ditch them), and Gets very few scenes After People literally waited for years for a reuniune, this is what they get.

And maybe it just me, but anyone else figured that Tali would actualy be the canon LI for Shepard (Manshep) and not Liara? I mean, before ME3 she had the most fans even after LOTSB. But Bioware gave her even less than the VS???? in fact, you can settle down with another LI before you even meet her.  I would not be surprised if it was mostly Talimancers who switched for Liara. Just saying.....

[Bowie Hawkins]

Jake Boone wrote...

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

gearseffect wrote...

Ashley, James, Garrus, Primarch Victus, all left their home and saw it being destroyed ya didn't see them trying to start a fight with any one because they were p!ssed off at stupid BS.

None of them has had their entire belief system threatened by someone who's being a condescending jackass to them the way that Javik has been toward Liara for the entire time he's been on board the Normandy at that point.

Two things.
One- Javik is a condescending jackass to everyone, not just Liara. It is his nature.
Two- Javik was right when he said that all of Asari society was based on what the Protheans had given them. Math, agriculture,writing are all things that the Protheans taught the Asari that the Turians, Humans, Salarians or Quarians had to learn for themselves. Throw in the fact that they had a hidden prothean beacon that they used to stay the most advanced and Javik is completely justified when he says that Asari culture is based on what the Protheans had given them

One - Liara is the only one we see Javik being a condescending jackass to immediately after her homeworld has been devastated.
Two - The fact that he was right doesn't change the fact that she has spent over a century absorbing her people's belief system, and it is difficult for someone to adjust to having a fundamental belief challenged even if it turns out that what they believed was wrong - and having someone making as much of a point of shoving your face in it as Javik does where Liara is concerned would make it even more difficult.

He's more of a condescending jackass toward Liara than he is toward any of the other squadmates, and he chooses to be a condescending jackass to her in a way and at a time that we don't see him doing to any of the rest of the squad, not even Shepard. So Three - Like I said before, Liara's totally justified in wanting to go for his throat when she does.

[Mathias]

CptData wrote...

^ The more I think about it, it definitely has something to do with the series' lead writer Mac Walters. It's a well known fact Liara is his "waifu" - favorite character. That's okay, every writer has a favorite character.

What irks me more is that I believe Mac also has a strong dislike towards the VS. I dunno why, but that's exactly how it feels. Remember ME1? Ash, Kaidan and Liara had equal romance arcs. None of them was sidelined - and the romances with Ash/Kaidan had an extra layer of drama since none could happen without a sacrifice.

Stuff changed in ME2: the VS got sidelined, Liara got an extra DLC that also deepened the romance.
And in ME3 it was straight obvious. Out of the three original romances, only Liara got a proper treatment. The other two were sidelined for half of the game - the second half, as soon as the VS is back on board. I mean, what the?

If you create a new Shepard from scratch, the description of Ashley/Kaidan says, Shepard and the VS grew an incredible strong bond. That bond never got displayed in the actual game. It's difficult to save the VS in the Udina Coup. New gamers won't ever find out why the VS is special if they do not visit him/her at the hospital. Liara on the other side has her full blown amazing romance arc right on board of the Normandy, she does a lot to get Shepard's (the players) attention.

'nuff said.

The VS got a sh*tty treatment compared against Liara. But instead of hating Liara - I dislike the writers decision to do it that way.

Yea, pretty much this. It's such a shame that it had to be like this. The VS romancers had the most challenging romance of them all, and we put up with A LOT of crap from people. ME3, was suppose to be the point where we got rewarded for our patience and loyalty, and we didn't get that. We got shafted along with the ME2 romances. I seriously dislike Mac as a lead writer.

[Vasirr]

I liked her Awkwardness and embarrassing moments. She's just.. I dunno. Special.

[khardrueth]

I liked her personality in ME1, her awkwardness around Shep, her sometimes losing focus in the danger of the mission to be fascinated by the historical significance of the revelations.

Also her caring, empathetic personality made a good counterpoint to my Renegade Shep's rather angry/war weary self so she was my LI for that save throughout all three games.

Plus, to top it off her Singularity/Warp abilities combined with my Shep's own abilities made a lot of the early missions in ME3 a hell of a lot easier.

I can totally understand fans of the other characters frustration at the relative lack of screentime compared to Liara's though. I rather dislike Ashley personally, constantly want my Shep to just slap her upside the head, but I still think she deserved better.

[dsprado956]

She was sweet, but someone I'd probably end up cheating on and she would be cool with it.

[gmboy902]

I don't see what was so dirty about her sex scene.

Then again, I've played The Witcher 2.

[khardrueth]

Jake Boone wrote...

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

gearseffect wrote...

Ashley, James, Garrus, Primarch Victus, all left their home and saw it being destroyed ya didn't see them trying to start a fight with any one because they were p!ssed off at stupid BS.

None of them has had their entire belief system threatened by someone who's being a condescending jackass to them the way that Javik has been toward Liara for the entire time he's been on board the Normandy at that point.

Two things.
One- Javik is a condescending jackass to everyone, not just Liara. It is his nature.
Two- Javik was right when he said that all of Asari society was based on what the Protheans had given them. Math, agriculture,writing are all things that the Protheans taught the Asari that the Turians, Humans, Salarians or Quarians had to learn for themselves. Throw in the fact that they had a hidden prothean beacon that they used to stay the most advanced and Javik is completely justified when he says that Asari culture is based on what the Protheans had given them

I don't see any problem with Liara's outburst at Javik after the fall of Thessia, in fact it seems fairly natural to me. I don't think either of them are to blame either, only surprised Shepard didn't have to quell a few more arguments like that considering the strain on his/her whole crew.

I mean Liara arrives on Thessia probably feeling a little guilty/let down by her people as they've revealed having information vital to the war effort ONLY once Thessia itself is directly threatened.

Once she sets foot on the planet and sees hfirst hand how desperate the situation is she has to deal with the realisation that this is pretty much the end for her homeworld and the Asari culture she knows. Even if they get the information needed to stop the Reapers, they then have to get it and the fleets to the Crucible, so there won't be any reinforcements for the Asari ground forces.

Then on top of that the knowledge that her mother Benezia knew all about the beacon at the temple and helped in concealing it's existence from the other races to add a little more guilt in there.

And all the while they search that Temple, her ideas and beliefs about her race and culture are rather cold bloodedly dismantled by the revelation of Prothean manipulation. Plus the fact that all through the series till now Liara has obviously believed, however misguidedly, in the Protheans as some kind of embodiement of civilised culture and probably remained convinced that if they were to be saved from the Reapers that the solution would be found in the Protheans somehow.

Then along comes a living Prothean to show her that not only was she completely wrong in her ideas aboput the nature of the Protheans and their society, but they were just as clueless and helpless against the Reapers at the end of their struggle as the races are in the current cycle.

I'm only amazed her pretty blue head doesn't explode with all that.....and seems fairly natural to me that you'd want to lash out at someone when you feel so much of your world crashing down, and also natural that Javik would be a target as she might feel, unfairly, that he and his people have somehow let her down.

For Javik's part he's just woken up after 50,000 fecking years in a tube to find out all his people are gone, that the primitive cultures he knew in his day have gone on to make exactly the same mistakes regarding the Relays and the Citadel that his own race did. He's alone, angry, still grieving and now being pressured by this strange Asari who seems to think that he should have some intimate knowledge of a solution to the Reaper menace.....not surprising he's a bit of a dick to her and anyone else in the crew.

Personally, I thought a few more arguments and outbursts among the crew would have been the case. Some of the human crew members arguing with Garrus about the fact that the Turians made them jump through hoops before agreeing to support Earth for instance....would have been understandable....not everyone can be a stoic hardass all the time