First of all, if for some reason Bioware chooses to have him make some cameo role, that ONLY appears on those that let him live in previous games, and imported those choices, thats fine. I never said I was opposed to that. However, I am going to argue against the rationale of certain people that try to justify him being a patriot.
[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...
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He assisted and/or plotted with Arl Howe to kill the Cousland family, so Howe could take over the Cousland estate and holdings.
A) this murder had to be planned at least weeks in advance before the Battle of Ostagar, before Loghain had any idea what the final battle plan was. So, it seems to logical, that he was already plotting the overthrow of the King, before arriving at Ostagar. [/quote]
No he didn't. Gaider confirmed that Loghain didn't know about Howe's plan in the DA:O forums and that he simply allied Howe after it was done and Ostagar lost. Howe controlled the North and Denerim when Loghain had returned from Ostagar, you think Loghain was in a capacity to resist him? Not really. [/quote]
First of all, there have been quite a few inconsistancies in the Dragon Age series, that does not make everything Mr. Gaider says in that regard very credible. Not here to make a long list about that here, but anyone recall the first cardinal rule of magic in DAO? Now, recall the rogue backstab attack in DA2. 'nuff said.
Second, even IF Loghain did plot with Howe to kill the Couslands, he certainly would have known soon after, if he had any competence as a leader whatsoever. The fact that he knowingly would let a murderer and backstabbing snake like Howe remain as one of his top advisors, speaks volumes about the character of Loghain.
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2) He sent assassins to kill the only known Wardens left in Ferelden. I am not sure exactly how that protected Ferelden. It certainly protected Loghain, since any survivors from that massacre that were not under his thumb, was dangerous for his plans of regicide and take over of the throne. [/quote]
Because of the Wardens who lived Eamon was saved, with Eamon saved the civil war continue. A civil war that if going by what the innkeepers tell us in rumors Loghain had all but won. [/quote]
Thanks for reminding me about that. Another assassination attempt of another Arl, this time linked directly to Loghain. If he did it once.....yeah, that matter with the Couslands could
never had been planned by Loghain, right?
And heaven forbid, that there are other patriots in Ferelden that do not agree with Loghain... Any civil war has to be blamed on Loghain as well, because if he had not taken actions to have the country's king killed, the situation would not be an issue.
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3) He dealt with Tevinter slavers, to sell citizens of Ferelden into slavery. Granted, that Alienage Elves were little more than 2nd class citizens, if that, but they were still under protection of Ferelden laws. Laws that Loghain continuously ignored for his own benefit. Not for Ferelden's. [/quote]
2 things here:
1) Some people don't give a **** for the City Elves, or elves in general. I certainly don't.
2) ( and more importantly ). If Loghain had not sold them you would not have that massive human army the end. He used the money to hire, supply and feed them. You know logistics. [/quote]
1) umm yeah....I think someone once said that about other people, in other time.
2) and more importantly, the right thing to have done would have been to arm and train the elves into some sort of militia to help defend Ferelden. Gold from selling them was not going to bring in more manpower. Almost all available manpower from humans would have already been called to arms already. Other countries were not going to send troops to defend Ferelden, for pay, or for free (not counting Wardens,....who Loghain sent away). So the one untapped source of troops that was not being used, was the city elves.
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There is no proof that the army would have been destroyed if the plan had been carried out. Duncan had a good idea with his Warden sense, how many darkspawn were in the area, and would have warned the king if there were too many. The Arch Demon was not present, and the darkspawn were just begin to come above ground in large numbers. There was a large force, but it was still not large enough that the full army could not have defeated them, especially if Loghain had followed the plan and hit them in the flank, after they committed to attack the decoy force [/quote]
Again confirmed by Gaider that the army coming out from the wilds was a lot more then anyone expected and that the defenders could have never won that battle. Loghain's mistake was that he did not assassinate Cailan earlier, but based again on what Gaider said he did decide until the last moment what he would do with Cailan, a flaw in my opinion.
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Once again, using Gaider as gospel is not the most convincing argument. And yes, when you plot to take over a country, you should not wait until the last minute to decide how to get the ruling leader out of the way. Very bad form, that.
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I seriously do not see the fascination in Loghain, except people like the voice actor. But hey, it takes all types. [/quote]
Oh, god forbid someone likes a patriot who genuinely loves his country and is willing to do whatever it takes for it, a person who has sacrificed time and again for his country. [/quote]
Seriously, but all these arguments that you are making for Loghain, could have been made for a certain Axis leader in a rather large conflict about 70 years ago. Right down to getting rid of the elves, noone likes them anyways.
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Either wat it does not matter what you think: It's a CHOICE the player has which can result in him being alive, thus it should be counter else Bioware is taking the ****** on us. End of story.
It would be like making the ritual choice cannon for every single player. Like making siding with Bhelen cannon for every player. I've picked those, certainly, but a choice is meaningless if it's forced on us that things happened in a certain way.
Kinda like the crap they did with Leliana or Anders in DA2. I kept them both alive in Origins and Awakening but the fact Bioware handwaved their deaths wasn't good.
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And I never argued that Loghain should not appear in DA3, for those people that kept him alive. As long as there is no hint at all that he survived the Landsmeet in my version of DA3.
All I did, early on, is state why "
I" did not allow him to live. You are the one that felt you needed to go in a full on rant of how Loghain deserved to live. Fine. But, I never said you could not have your version of Loghain.
I hope others that thought Loghain was worth keeping around, have better reasons for it than you do though.
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