220 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexJK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Has it ever been addressed why they went from a complex character like Loghain as an antagonist (and even an enigmatic character like the Architect in Awakening), to the one-dimensional antagonists in Dragon Age II?

You imply that the decision to create one-dimensional antagonists in DA2 was intentional. I'm sure it wasn't. (And the Arishok isn't.) I'm also praying it won't happen again.

[Zkyire]

AlexJK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Has it ever been addressed why they went from a complex character like Loghain as an antagonist (and even an enigmatic character like the Architect in Awakening), to the one-dimensional antagonists in Dragon Age II?

You imply that the decision to create one-dimensional antagonists in DA2 was intentional. I'm sure it wasn't. (And the Arishok isn't.) I'm also praying it won't happen again.

Agreed, the Arishok was incredibly well done.

Most of the time I found myself agreeing with him in every conversation we had.

..but still forced to fight against him.

Modifié par Zkyire, 24 avril 2012 - 03:48 .

[coles4971]

I agreed with the Arishok's distaste for Kirkwall but he was still a fool. Why move up to Hightown and defend it by placing troops all over the place rather than funnelling Hawke, the City Guard and Templars in Lowtown through the stairs where they would have no room to manoeuvre?

[Dakota Strider]

DA2 Act 2, On time, on schedule, Arishok done well (you could have been a terrible person and gave him the thief, and not fight him).

DA2 Act 3. Deadline looming, not enough time to smoothly develop everything. Rushed. They may have had better planned, but not enough time to get it into the game. Result: One-dimensional antagonists.

[Dakota Strider]

coles4971 wrote...

I agreed with the Arishok's distaste for Kirkwall but he was still a fool. Why move up to Hightown and defend it by placing troops all over the place rather than funnelling Hawke, the City Guard and Templars in Lowtown through the stairs where they would have no room to manoeuvre?

Because the Viscount would not come to the Arishok to have his head cut off.

[Zkyire]

coles4971 wrote...

I agreed with the Arishok's distaste for Kirkwall but he was still a fool. Why move up to Hightown and defend it by placing troops all over the place rather than funnelling Hawke, the City Guard and Templars in Lowtown through the stairs where they would have no room to manoeuvre?

Seemed to me they were more about making a statement than winning a straight up battle. Cause as much chaos as possible while killing off the nobles one by one to force a surrender perhaps? They probably didn't have the numbers for a protracted battle, hence all the widespread burning.

Or it could be just poor tactics I dunno.

Modifié par Zkyire, 24 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

David Gaider wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I know a lot of people killed Loghain ( either Landsmeet or Ultimate Sacrifice ), but some of us didn't and I have to ask if Loghain will show in any sort of capacity for those that did not kill him, if the choice with him will have any relevance.

I wouldn't expect it to really play a huge role, but I think a cameo would be quite nice, perhaps a side quest where he plays a major role ( Kinda like Jack in Grissom, Grunt in the Rachni Mission etc. ). I know Loghain is mentioned if he is alive and Alistair is alive and there but still is there a possibility for him to be there in DA3?

I ask this because Loghain is by far my favorite Bioware character. I really enjoyed talking with him, fighting against him, fighting alongside him and his entire character is just very well crafted.

If Loghain showed up, I'd really rather have it be more than a quick "Hi! I'm Loghain and I'm still alive!" moment, you know? If we can't do more than that, I'd rather let it lie.

You mean like the Alistair moment in DA2? Yeah, that would terrible. Oh, sorry...

[coles4971]

Zkyire wrote...

coles4971 wrote...

I agreed with the Arishok's distaste for Kirkwall but he was still a fool. Why move up to Hightown and defend it by placing troops all over the place rather than funnelling Hawke, the City Guard and Templars in Lowtown through the stairs where they would have no room to manoeuvre?

Seemed to me they were more about making a statement than winning a straight up battle. Cause as much chaos as possible while killing off the nobles one by one to force a surrender perhaps? They probably didn't have the numbers for a protracted battle, hence all the widespread burning.

Or it could be just poor tactics I dunno.

And if they didn't have the numbers then it would have made the most sense to concentrate their limited forces on the stairs where the numbers of Templars and City Guard matter for nought sin ce they would not be able to take advantage of them.

Once you get past the cool voice, the Arishok just seems to be as incompetent and as much of an idiot as everyone else in Kirkwall.

[David Gaider]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
You mean like the Alistair moment in DA2? Yeah, that would terrible. Oh, sorry...

Yes, exactly like that. The people who such a cameo would be included to make happy wouldn't be happy with it anyway. So instead they get nothing. And fair enough, you know? Easier that way, anyhow.

[Atakuma]

David Gaider wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
You mean like the Alistair moment in DA2? Yeah, that would terrible. Oh, sorry...

Yes, exactly like that. The people who such a cameo would be included to make happy wouldn't be happy with it anyway. So instead they get nothing. And fair enough, you know? Easier that way, anyhow.

I'm kind of hoping that any returning characters will actually be a part of the story like Cullen, and not completely supurfluous like pretty much everyone else in DA2. Those quick cameos just felt like cheap fanservice to me.

[Brockololly]

Atakuma wrote...
I'm kind of hoping that any returning characters will actually be a part of the story like Cullen, and not completely supurfluous like pretty much everyone else in DA2. Those quick cameos just felt like cheap fanservice to me.

Yeah, I'd rather have returning characters have meaningful roles as story driven NPCs than the sort of fan servicey cameos like Alistair or Leliana in DA2, where they show up once for 3 seconds and then they're gone. Especially since we're playing as a new PC, you don't even get the satisfaction of a friendly hello with the old NPC in a brief cameo. Its just kind of awkward and makes you wish you were playing as the old PC who had a meaningful relationship/connection to the cameo NPC.

Otherwise, just have really small references to old NPCs. Like overhearing rumors about an NPC from people in a tavern or news stories on notice boards referencing old characters. Like maybe you see a Grey Warden recruiting poster from Loghain posted on a notice board or a wanted poster  (like the ones of Saskia, Iorveth or Geralt in The WItcher 2) from the Templars with Morrigan or Anders on it. Little references that can be made without the actual character having to come back directly and break the fourth wall by winking at the camera and saying their catchphrase.

[Dave of Canada]

Alistair's cameo kind of made sense, he established that Orlais was planning to invade Ferelden which does lead to some build up for future plot threads and it does make sense why King Alistair would be there (Shame there wasn't mention of such a war for Anora, we don't even know if Orlais is considering invading Anora-only Ferelden). Leliana's cameo could've been filled in by anybody else, however.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alistair's cameo kind of made sense, he established that Orlais was planning to invade Ferelden which does lead to some build up for future plot threads and it does make sense why King Alistair would be there (Shame there wasn't mention of such a war for Anora, we don't even know if Orlais is considering invading Anora-only Ferelden). Leliana's cameo could've been filled in by anybody else, however.

Indeed. Alistair seeking out the city-states for a potential alliance -- almost assuredly against Orlais -- is probably one of the best moves he's made. The Free Marches were at one point under the boot of the Orlesians and that only ended when they rebelled.

The same holds true for Nevarra and obviously Ferelden. Nevarra has long since had a bitter and violent feud with Orlais.

I imagine Alistair was trying to seek a triple alliance. Ferelden, the Free Marches, and Nevarra all being unified against the Orlesians would be a potent threat. Especially were he to also secretly harbor apostates in the Mage-Templar War and help ensure the Divine's protection.

So, the King Alistair cameo was one I liked.

[Ponendus]

David Gaider wrote...

If Loghain showed up, I'd really rather have it be more than a quick "Hi! I'm Loghain and I'm still alive!" moment, you know? If we can't do more than that, I'd rather let it lie.

Yeah I think that is really sensible. Perhaps something like a whole side quest that is only available if you made that particular choice would be good, perhaps even something he could accompany you on.

But... I suppose then you run into the old 'can't make content for x% of players' issue. That must really get frustrating after a while!

[Ponendus]

Atakuma wrote...

I'm kind of hoping that any returning characters will actually be a part of the story like Cullen, and not completely supurfluous like pretty much everyone else in DA2. Those quick cameos just felt like cheap fanservice to me.

I think in alot of ways it was almighty dreamcrusher. I echo your sentiments and think Cullen is a really good example of a returning cameo character done well. He was utilised very well in DAO, we saw him as a lowly guard, progress to an important part of the whole Circle Tower quest. Then he shows up fully promotoed and all grown up in DA2.

Watching the progression and growth of a character is always rewarding. Just having them show their face for the sake of it is a little hollow.

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alistair's cameo kind of made sense, he established that Orlais was planning to invade Ferelden which does lead to some build up for future plot threads and it does make sense why King Alistair would be there (Shame there wasn't mention of such a war for Anora, we don't even know if Orlais is considering invading Anora-only Ferelden). Leliana's cameo could've been filled in by anybody else, however.

Agreed, King Alistair makes sense in that it does provide some perspective of whats going on in the broader political context of Thedas. Yet, within the confines of DA2 it still seems like sort of a throwaway interaction. If the point was really to convey to the player that broader political status of the world, then why doesn't Anora have a similar cameo, like you mentioned?

Then again, I'm still not sure what the hell being "Champion of Kirkwall" even really means, and why Hawke needed to meet Alistair. If there was some extra mission Alistair gave Hawke before leaving, maybe a choice to act as a his eyes and ears in Kirkwall for some political purpose for Ferelden, it might have felt more meaningful beyond just a cameo showing Alistair is still around.

[Ponendus]

Brockololly wrote...

Then again, I'm still not sure what the hell being "Champion of Kirkwall" even really means, and why Hawke needed to meet Alistair. If there was some extra mission Alistair gave Hawke before leaving, maybe a choice to act as a his eyes and ears in Kirkwall for some political purpose for Ferelden, it might have felt more meaningful beyond just a cameo showing Alistair is still around.

That's a really good idea. Building these sorts of inter-connections between games would really make it feel like you were 'playing the world' not just little bits of it. I wonder if everyone wants that though.

[Weltenschlange]

David Gaider wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
You mean like the Alistair moment in DA2? Yeah, that would terrible. Oh, sorry...

Yes, exactly like that. The people who such a cameo would be included to make happy wouldn't be happy with it anyway. So instead they get nothing. And fair enough, you know? Easier that way, anyhow.

I liked the Alistair cameo and Leiliana's and Zevran's and...

I think these brief moments are a nice reminder of past adventures for the people who played the previous game.

I would be sad to see them get cut from future titles.

[AngryFrozenWater]

For some reason it looks like insignificant cameos are there just to make sure that others who didn't make the same decision are at a disadvantage. I think it is about time to leave that thought behind. If choices are to have significant impact then that's the consequence of it. All the resources, time and energy invested in cosmetic changes could have put in mutually exclusive story lines. So, if Loghain is to make a comeback then let him do something worthwhile based on a previous decision. But if your decision made Loghain do something else then do not bother to find a replacement. ME2 and ME3 are full of that and it seriously hurts the storytelling.

[syllogi]

David Gaider wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
You mean like the Alistair moment in DA2? Yeah, that would terrible. Oh, sorry...

Yes, exactly like that. The people who such a cameo would be included to make happy wouldn't be happy with it anyway. So instead they get nothing. And fair enough, you know? Easier that way, anyhow.

Not being snarky, I really would prefer not seeing a character at all, if it's just "hey!  here's this guy from a previous game!" kind of cameo.  Even the Zevran cameo in DA2 made me sad, because of the bug where he doesn't acknowledge a relationship with the Warden.  I'd find more subtle references more interesting, like gossip about King Alistair's reign, for instance.  It doesn't cost much, and it's more realistic than coincidentally bumping into every person Hawke ever knew, when the new player character is not connected to Hawke in any way.

And though I love Isabela, I don't want to know for certain that she doesn't get to live happily ever after with Hawke.  Let me have the fantasy.

[brushyourteeth]

I would like to see Loghain's tomb or Denerim statue in DAIII.

..... so that I can defile it in some way.

[thats1evildude]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I would like to see Loghain's tomb or Denerim statue in DAIII.

..... so that I can defile it in some way.

How dare you say that! The Orlesians killed his dog, you know. That clearly justifies all the murder and slavery and whatnot.

[Halberd96]

Maybe he will get a mention or small cameo in a future game that involves the Grey Wardens...

i.e maybe if DA 4 involves a new Blight or GW involved scenario someone will say something like 'Loghain is out recruiting all the men he can for the Wardens in Ferelden' or maybe you actually get to see him walking past with a recruiting party or something and you can speak with him. It all depends on how the games are I guess

its possible that some characters won't get any cameos at all in games and I'm fine with that as long as it keeps things realistic...

[Dave of Canada]

syllogi wrote...

Not being snarky, I really would prefer not seeing a character at all, if it's just "hey!  here's this guy from a previous game!" kind of cameo. 

Thankfully, Loghain wouldn't be such a cameo simply because he's already in Orlais and working for the Wardens. Any interaction with the Wardens in Orlais or politics with Ferelden could involve Loghain in many number of ways. The groundwork for a possible cameo is built.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 avril 2012 - 07:33 .

[standardpack]

David Gaider wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If Loghain showed up, I'd really rather have it be more than a quick "Hi! I'm Loghain and I'm still alive!" moment, you know? If we can't do more than that, I'd rather let it lie.

Didn't he already do that in awakening...? lol