not quite. I'm looking up old posts about Loghain and it's been said that Loghain never wanted the plan to fail, per Gaider. Nor that he made a plan designed to fail.thats1evildude wrote...
It's been established that Loghain planned to abandon the Wardens to be slaughtered by the darkspawn horde. He didn't necessarily want to kill Cailan but he also didn't abandon his plans when the king announced his intention to fight with the diversionary force.
But he did plan for that eventuality. He made a plan that allowed for a tactical retreat.
He underestimated the horde certainly. But he never went "Damn those Wardens, I'll leave them to die and run away because I'm evil!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"
thats1evildude wrote...
You seem to believe that Loghain's battle plan was intended to work. It wasn't.
No? I have said numerous times that it failed. I've said on threads in the past that it wouldn't have worked.
I know his intended battle plan -- that of the anvil and hammer strategy -- wasn't going to work.
Don't know why you're assuming that I believe it could've worked. I said I doubt he would've proposed the same strategy if he had an army of Mages and Templars alongside him. Meaning he wouldn't have proposed the anvil and hammer strategy.
Ostagar could've been won, had different strategies been employed. Had Loghain understood his enemies better.
It wouldn't have worked. At least, not in the way Loghain had planned. Had he understood that the Darkspawn were a bigger threat then he thought, he may have come up with a better way to do the strategy. If such a thing is possible.
1) You're assuming Cailan would've listened to Loghain. Cailan wanted to have glory and it's made clear that the two of them have been arguing longer then we see. .thats1evildude wrote...
If Loghain was truly acting in Ferelden's best interests, he would have convinced the king that the battle was unwinnable and they would have retreated from Ostagar to muster more troops. Better yet, he would have elented when it came to Cailan's plan to bring in Orlesian reinforcements.
As for the Orlesians, well there's no guarantee that the Orlesian Chevaliers would've been those that weren't working for the Orlesian nobles that want to reconquer Ferelden.
I mean hell, Cailan can't even fathom the idea of waiting for Eamon to arrive with his forces because he thinks Eamon just wants glory. That's all Cailan can wrap his head around. Glory. Glory, glory, glory.
If Cailan can't even wait for his uncle to arrive who isn't that far away, how can we trust him to wait for the Orlesians?
The Wardens Loghain should've let in. The Chevaliers are iffy.
thats1evildude wrote...
But he didn't even try. He allowed Cailan, the Warden and countless other soliders to take the field with a plan that was designed to fail. Cailan's death was unfortunate, but in the end, only the great Hero of the River Dane could protect Ferelden from the dreaded Orlesians.
I don't think he intentionally designed the plan to fail. I think he underestimated the threat of the Darkspawn, certainly. But he made a plan that he was sure would work based on what he believed, yet also considered that there's a chance it might fail.
He should've listened to the Wardens more, certainly. I'll concede that much since they're the people that understand Darkspawn the most.
Also his actions with the Tower of Ishal's lower levels were idiotic.
Though that's what I believe he was doing -- I've often posted my theory on Uldred in the past, like on here -- but do we have proof that he was training mages to be blood mages?thats1evildude wrote...
Uldred had been training blood mages in secret for some time,
All we have is that he was good at finding blood mages because he was one. But nothing to indicate that he was the reason mages were turning to blood magic.
Unless we're to take the blood mages that were with him as evidence that he was training them, which is valid and I suppose it would validate my belief that he was the reason Mages were being "discovered" for being blood mages.
Still, I don't think one should say that Uldred wouldn't have attempted a coup on his own, had Loghain done no scheming.thats1evildude wrote...
but his attempted coup was an act of desperation when Wynne showed up at the tower and told everyone what Loghain had done at Ostagar. When it became clear that the Circle would not ally itself with the Teryn, he tried to take over the tower and ended up summoning a demon that was beyond his control.
By your own words, Uldred had been training various mages in blood magic, which would take a great deal of time -- months if not years to keep it hidden from the Templars. That seems to point to him having planned to launch a rebellion for some time.
I'm not denying he's a crappy politician or that he shouldn't have tried to become Regent.thats1evildude wrote...
His approach to the Bannorn was "follow me or I'll destroy you". Had Cailan's death not seemed so suspicious — had Loghain not played the role of the obvious usurper — would so many of the nobles have rebelled
But he was at Ostagar, so he saw the field. Mary Kirby has said in the past that Loghain was able to see enough of the field to know his plan was a failure because the Darkspawn were more numerous then expected. She's said that he couldn't charge too early, lest he risk being sandwiched between the Darkspawn.
Gaider has said that Loghain didn't go to Ostagar with the intention of just walking away.
David Gaider wrote...
In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.
That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.
and...
David Gaider wrote...
The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.
The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he
prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.
Thing is, Cailan was relying on a scarce amount of Wardens to win the battle. Yes, Wardens are important to defeating the Blights.
But two dozen or so? That's not going to be enough to defeat the Darkspawn if they're at the vanguard.
Not against those numbers anyway, with what army was available at Ostagar. And based on the cinematic showing Ostagar as well as comments from the soldiers, they weren't steelfaced in the battle. They seemed to be the sort that would run away before fighting.
So yes, Loghain should've brought in more Wardens.
One of Loghain's flaws at Ostagar with his strategies is that he didn't bother to know his enemy well enough for the battle. Well, that and he didn't understand that a Shield Wall probably would've done wonders against the horde, given Ostagar's design.
*some of what I said in this post may not be in the right spots.*
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2012 - 07:05 .
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