220 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glad to see my blog being referenced. Ah those were the good old days. Loghain debates were awesome. Sadly, I no longer have enough interest to participate in them again. But it always warms the heart to see one of my favorite (and imo under-appreciated) characters still have a strong impact on the community (unnecessary ambiguities of the story resulting from idiocy and a not so well constructed plot notwithstanding).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[Vovea]

Loghain is awesome, and still kicking in two of my main playthroughs. I think he's one of the most interesting characters in the series. If he's not in DAIII I hope there's another bitter, ageing soldier called 'Smoghain' who hates Antivans.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


That said, Duncan did tell people that he felt the Archdemon's presence. While it can be said that wasn't enough, that should be looked at as a strong indication that the Wardens are necessary, if they can feel the presence of the leader of the horde when no one else -- save for fellow Wardens -- can.

But he didn't really push it, let's take the quoted conversation you posted above this:

Your Majesty, I'm not so sure the Blight can be defeated as easily as you wish -- Duncan

I'm not even sure this is a real Blight. There are plenty of Darkspawn on the field, but there are no signs of an Archdemon. -- Cailan 

... it's silly, Duncan allows Cailan to still keep the thought that it might not be a real Blight and then moves the conversation immediately onto the train of thought about Eamon. Changing the subject wouldn't help anything, he left Cailan's delusions there and only spoke about them to the Warden afterward.

Cailan respected Duncan, despite how idealistic and of a moron he was. Had Duncan pushed Cailan, Cailan would've likely listened. However, Duncan sat in the back and only fed Cailan's interpretation of the situation by never confronting it fully.

Loghain probably expected the horde to be bigger, though he always thought it was a horde and not a Blight until the last moment.

Duncan had weeks to say something, he didn't.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 avril 2012 - 10:25 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

But he didn't really push it, let's take the quoted conversation you posted above this:

Your Majesty, I'm not so sure the Blight can be defeated as easily as you wish -- Duncan

I'm not even sure this is a real Blight. There are plenty of Darkspawn on the field, but there are no signs of an Archdemon. -- Cailan 

... it's silly, Duncan allows Cailan to still keep the thought that it might not be a real Blight and then moves the conversation immediately onto the train of thought about Eamon. Changing the subject wouldn't help anything, he left Cailan's delusions there and only spoke about them to the Warden afterward.

I won't dispute that. Perhaps there's some stupid unsung Warden law that prevents them from doing such a thing.

But you'd think this would be the type of stuff that was established in any of the 4 previous Blights. Maybe in the one that founded the Order.



So I won't disagree that Duncan didn't do enough. But the blame isn't entirely his, as common sense would seem to point to the man that has previously told people he can sense the Archdemon being one that should be listened to.

Or at least questioned.

We don't know if he was questioned on why he felt that way. Alistair says Duncan was dismissed for "just guessing".

Duncan certainly didn't do enough. But neither did anyone else.

Which again brings me back to my associated conundrum: Do I admire Fereldans or pity them?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So I won't disagree that Duncan didn't do enough. But the blame isn't entirely his, as common sense would seem to point to the man that has previously told people he can sense the Archdemon being one that should be listened to.

That presupposes that people believe in the premise that an archdemon is present, when there is no sign of it (and indeed at that time, it was in the deep roads). Which makes us go back to the initial point. Why should anyone believe Duncan's hinges when he does not reveal at all how he gets them?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[thats1evildude]

Duncan should have recruited that one hysterical Chasind to convince Cailan of the threat.

BETTER TO SLIT THEIR THROATS NOW THAN LET THEM SUFFER AT DARKSPAWN HANDS!

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So I won't disagree that Duncan didn't do enough. But the blame isn't entirely his, as common sense would seem to point to the man that has previously told people he can sense the Archdemon being one that should be listened to.

That presupposes that people believe in the premise that an archdemon is present, when there is no sign of it (and indeed at that time, it was in the deep roads). Which makes us go back to the initial point. Why should anyone believe Duncan's hinges when he does not reveal at all how he gets them?

But Duncan had been in the Deep Roads, remember? It's been stated by Gaider that he traveled to each of the 6 Origin points looking for recruits -- and only managed to get 1, though I've found some pretty egregious flaws with that statement -- and he says in the Deep Roads that he's looking for proof about the Blight being a Blight IIRC.

So, if he's been in the Deep Roads, that means he's been up close with the Dwarves and Darkspawn. Chantry lore states that the Old Gods -- who the Archdemons were originally -- are trapped underground.

So... if the man that's been underground comes back and says he's been able to feel the Archdemon's presence, shouldn't they press the issue on why he feels that way?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So... if the man that's been underground comes back and says he's been able to feel the Archdemon's presence, shouldn't they press the issue on why he feels that way?

Well first there is no indication that Duncan actually saw the archdemon. And even if he did, what tangible proof does he have?

Yes I agree that people should have questionned him openly. But was he waiting for that to happen to explain himself? Why couldn't he take the initiative and do it himself, since the burden of proof is on him?

The entire concept of Grey Warden is thus idiotic, for a reason we both agree on. Monarchs and generals need to know why they should trust them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2012 - 10:44 .

[Aeowyn]

It's kind of silly that they didn't explain the concept of the joining to at least the Monarchs and Generals since it doesn't seem to be a secret anyway. Anora knew that the Joining could kill you, so why the hush hush? Fear of not getting enough recruits would most likely change at the appearance of a Blight.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Well first there is no indication that Duncan actually saw the archdemon. And even if he did, what tangible proof does he have?

Irrelevant. My point was that the issue should be pressed further by both parties. Even if he had no concrete proof -- though he could just fabricate proof like "I saw its footprints." or "I saw it in the Deep Roads, but couldn't get near it to kill it" , considering the Wardens will do anything to defeat a Blight -- the fact that he went underground to find proof and returned should be cause for further questioning.

Yes I agree that people should have questionned him openly. But was he waiting for that to happen to explain himself? Why couldn't he take the initiative and do it himself, since the burden of proof is on him?

I agree with that. Both sides are ultimately at fault. And in my mind, one can ascribe more fault to whoever one wishes.

Was it 60% Duncan's fault? Or was it 60% the fault of the Fereldans?

Either one is valid in my mind, so long as both are blamed.

The entire concept of Grey Warden is thus idiotic, for a reason we both agree on. Monarchs and generals need to know why they should trust them.

Agreed. But perhaps the Fifth Blight will have changed that notion of "Why should we trust that it is a Blight, just because you say so?"

It's already made it known that Wardens are needed, Blight or no. But perhaps the events of Ferelden will solidify why they're needed for future generations and future Blights.

[TEWR]

It's kind of silly that they didn't explain the concept of the joining to at least the Monarchs and Generals since it doesn't seem to be a secret anyway. Anora knew that the Joining could kill you, so why the hush hush? Fear of not getting enough recruits would most likely change at the appearance of a Blight.

When Anora said that, it actually made me think that Loghain had deciphered the Joining's intricacies post-Ostagar. He did take over the compound and everything.

Maybe he was intent on making his own Wardens. Ones that he could trust?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I agree with that. Both sides are ultimately at fault. And in my mind, one can ascribe more fault to whoever one wishes.

Was it 60% Duncan's fault? Or was it 60% the fault of the Fereldans?

Either one is valid in my mind, so long as both are blamed.

For me, it's 80% Duncan's fault.

He is the one making these statements, the burden of proof is on him. If the people he is tryign to save are too stupid to ask and then don't believe him,, then he should tell them and not just change topics and moan while they turn their backs to you

[FlyinElk212]

David Gaider wrote...

If Loghain showed up, I'd really rather have it be more than a quick "Hi! I'm Loghain and I'm still alive!" moment, you know? If we can't do more than that, I'd rather let it lie.

This may be an area where taking an example from the Mass Effect team might help a lot. Many of the missions surrounding that game involved a beloved past character that COULD die throughout the series, and if they're dead, they're replaced by someone else during the mission. The replacement character is completely different and can even lead to different outcomes during the missions themselves.

The best example of this in ME3 is Mordin. When you think about it, he may seem cheap at first (particularly because he doesn't even need to be alive for those particular missions to have success), but Mordin's role in ME3 is almost universally praised. Why? Because despite him not being required during that mission, the mission is enhanced two-fold with his presence. If you play the game with him alive in the first playthrough, you almost can't imagine him NOT being part of the mission.

Loghain could be something similar in DA3.

[Costin_Razvan]

I would hope they do that...but eh that's just a dream.

But really if Bioware actually is saying: "Your choices from previous games will actually have an impact." then what you choose with Loghain really needs to be considered.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2012 - 07:36 .

[Rawgrim]

If Leliana can survive having her head chopped off, I see no reason why the same can`t happen for Loghain.

[Costin_Razvan]

I would certainly hope that what happened to Leliana does not happen to Loghain.

[Tirigon]

I sure hope not.

Loghain is a great character, but one who, for most players anyways, died in DAO.

It would be pretty cool if he appeared ONLY if you import a save where he survives, but given BioWare's recent history of reflecting choices, that would be no more than a crappy 5 min cameo where he accidentally stumbles into one pointless sidequest that can (and will, without such an import) play out exactly the same without Loghain.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So... if the man that's been underground comes back and says he's been able to feel the Archdemon's presence, shouldn't they press the issue on why he feels that way?

Well first there is no indication that Duncan actually saw the archdemon. And even if he did, what tangible proof does he have?

Yes I agree that people should have questionned him openly. But was he waiting for that to happen to explain himself? Why couldn't he take the initiative and do it himself, since the burden of proof is on him?

The entire concept of Grey Warden is thus idiotic, for a reason we both agree on. Monarchs and generals need to know why they should trust them.

The Darkspawn appearing above ground in greater numbers than a few raiders seems like sufficient proof to me.

[thats1evildude]

The insistence that this was not a Blight always struck me as odd. The darkspawn stayed out of sight for several centuries; why else would they suddenly be gathering in large numbers on the surface? Did they think it was Darkspawn Spring Break?

"Sir, it turns out that the darkspawn aren't simply snarling at us in a primitive, incomprehensible language. They're actually speaking the common tongue, but they're too drunk for anyone to understand them. Which is just as well, because all they're shouting is 'Bring us another round!' and 'Show us your ******!'"

Modifié par thats1evildude, 15 mai 2012 - 08:53 .

[TEWR]

The rationale they employed was that it was a "large Darkspawn raid". Which really boggles the mind how anyone could think that of a race of creatures that were erroneously believed to be extinct.

Honestly, if the rulers of the nations didn't have enough presence of mind to ask the frickin' Dwarves if the Darkspawn were still around in large numbers, then I find Thedosians to be self-centered, idiotic, and not very capable.

See my associated conundrum up above: Do I pity Fereldans or admire them? Because in both games I've had sufficient evidence to point to them being idiotic at times, while at other times they're brilliant and amazing.

[HiroVoid]

Was it just the commoners who thought it was extinct? I thought the higher-up nobles knew better.

[Silfren]

Rawgrim wrote...

If Leliana can survive having her head chopped off, I see no reason why the same can`t happen for Loghain.

Probably because Lelian's death is easily explained via the Warden not checking to see if she was dead.  Left for dead, she clearly survived even though the Warden believed otherwise.

Like it or not, that IS the canon, now. 

Loghain, on the other hand, was not left for dead in a scenario where his death could have been mistaken.  He was killed, for those who killed him, in front of a roomful of witnesses.  Otherwise he was killed while slaying the Archdemon.  Neither can be easily explained away as Leliana's was.  Especially if he was killed at the Landsmeet--the people would not simply have left his body lying about; he was cremated.  You can bet Anora saw to that if no one else did.

Leliana's head being chopped off is a random gameplay visual to amuse players.  It is not to be taken as canon anything.  

[KotorEffect3]

You run the risk of the Leliana thing happening again. If Loghain does return it should be in a non essential role so that he doesn't show up in imports where he was executed during the landsmeet (90% of my playthroughs)