248 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Because synthesis removes the difference between organics and synthetics, which allows a true understanding between them. This is the major source of conflict between the two, and by removing it, it likely ends the cycle of conflict.

I achieved this when I saved both the quarians and the geth. I brokered peace and understanding by having enough reputation.

Where is star child's logic now?

Being Nevile Chamberlain in the Mass Effect universe doesn't mean that there will be everlasting peace...

War is an inevitability with any intelligent species. But star child seems INTENT on making this the only possibility in which synthetics and organics are involved. HOW DOES HE KNOW THIS IF HE NEVER LETS ORGANICS GET TO THAT POINT? NOTHING MAKES SENSE.

If war is inevitable between sentients, then the Catalyst was logical. His fear of a sythetic-organic war is well founded.

As a side note, organics do get to that point, in our cycle and the cycle prior for sure.

if was is inevitable between sentients, then synthesis is not a solution, as it fixes nothing.

They aren't concerned about any old sentient v sentient conflict. They are specifically worried about one type, synthetic v organic. You can be worried about one type of conflict while not having the same worry about the others. It's not all or nothing.

and what makes the synthetic v organic conflict so much more important than any other?

[CavScout]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

He created the reapers to prevent organics from being killed by synthetics. He doesn't give a damn about organics killing organics. Do I need to get the Xzibit picture in here?

Exactly. Organics are more likely to be wiped out by other organics, not synthetics.

Organics won't be wiped out if one side kills the other and both sides are organic....

[111987]

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Because synthesis removes the difference between organics and synthetics, which allows a true understanding between them. This is the major source of conflict between the two, and by removing it, it likely ends the cycle of conflict.

I achieved this when I saved both the quarians and the geth. I brokered peace and understanding by having enough reputation.

Where is star child's logic now?

You brokered peace, but understanding? No; it is fundamentally impossible for synthetics and organics to ever truly understand each other.

Have you ever heard "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? That could easily be the situation here. Of course the Geth and Quarians would ally now; not doing so would end in both their destruction. Afterwards though? Who knows if the peace can last.

Peace will never last with ANY intelligent species. Carl Sagan had a wonderful quote about it. "Understanding" only happens in PSA's and Disney movies. Making someone half synthetic will not quell the other "human" half. Nor the Batatrian, Krogan, Salarian etc. etc.

It's not so much that the conflict is inevitable, but the fact that the conflict will damn the galaxy forever if a rogue synthetic wins. Tehcnological singularity and all that jazz.

It's not that everyone is half organic, half synthetic; it is a seamless, natural fusion. There isn't a human and synthetic part; there is only a single, collective, unified whole.

Will the galaxy last that long? What about natural phenomenon wiping out the synthetics? Gamma Ray bursts? Black holes? 

Lastly evolution does not work that way. You cannot combine things like that. Where is Richard Dawkins?

Well, if the galaxy is going to end anyways this is a pointless topic...but synthetics have a much better chance of living indefinitely, wiping out all organic life in the galaxy.

"You can't combine things like that"? It's space magic; the Catalyst says it creates a new DNA. You can't apply real world evolutionary facts to a fictional situation like this...

[Taboo]

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Because synthesis removes the difference between organics and synthetics, which allows a true understanding between them. This is the major source of conflict between the two, and by removing it, it likely ends the cycle of conflict.

I achieved this when I saved both the quarians and the geth. I brokered peace and understanding by having enough reputation.

Where is star child's logic now?

Being Nevile Chamberlain in the Mass Effect universe doesn't mean that there will be everlasting peace...

War is an inevitability with any intelligent species. But star child seems INTENT on making this the only possibility in which synthetics and organics are involved. HOW DOES HE KNOW THIS IF HE NEVER LETS ORGANICS GET TO THAT POINT? NOTHING MAKES SENSE.

If war is inevitable between sentients, then the Catalyst was logical. His fear of a sythetic-organic war is well founded.

As a side note, organics do get to that point, in our cycle and the cycle prior for sure.

He created the reapers to prevent organics from being killed by synthetics. He doesn't give a damn about organics killing organics. Do I need to get the Xzibit picture in here?

It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

It still doesn't make his solution any less barbaric. Hypotheticals based upon a machine that cannot feel cannot be trusted. He created the reapers to kill organic life to prevent them from being killed. Serial killers kill people to "save" them too. It still doesn't make the logic any more palatable or logical.

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

They aren't concerned about any old sentient v sentient conflict. They are specifically worried about one type, synthetic v organic. You can be worried about one type of conflict while not having the same worry about the others. It's not all or nothing.

and what makes the synthetic v organic conflict so much more important than any other?

The one that leads to the obliteration of organic life is the one they are worried about. Ones that leave organics around don't concern them. It's not hard to follow...

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Because synthesis removes the difference between organics and synthetics, which allows a true understanding between them. This is the major source of conflict between the two, and by removing it, it likely ends the cycle of conflict.

I achieved this when I saved both the quarians and the geth. I brokered peace and understanding by having enough reputation.

Where is star child's logic now?

Being Nevile Chamberlain in the Mass Effect universe doesn't mean that there will be everlasting peace...

War is an inevitability with any intelligent species. But star child seems INTENT on making this the only possibility in which synthetics and organics are involved. HOW DOES HE KNOW THIS IF HE NEVER LETS ORGANICS GET TO THAT POINT? NOTHING MAKES SENSE.

If war is inevitable between sentients, then the Catalyst was logical. His fear of a sythetic-organic war is well founded.

As a side note, organics do get to that point, in our cycle and the cycle prior for sure.

He created the reapers to prevent organics from being killed by synthetics. He doesn't give a damn about organics killing organics. Do I need to get the Xzibit picture in here?

It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

if you use synthesis on all these species, then you still have no organic species left. how is this better? especially given that war is inevitable.

[Taboo]

111987 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

111987 wrote...

Because synthesis removes the difference between organics and synthetics, which allows a true understanding between them. This is the major source of conflict between the two, and by removing it, it likely ends the cycle of conflict.

I achieved this when I saved both the quarians and the geth. I brokered peace and understanding by having enough reputation.

Where is star child's logic now?

You brokered peace, but understanding? No; it is fundamentally impossible for synthetics and organics to ever truly understand each other.

Have you ever heard "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? That could easily be the situation here. Of course the Geth and Quarians would ally now; not doing so would end in both their destruction. Afterwards though? Who knows if the peace can last.

Peace will never last with ANY intelligent species. Carl Sagan had a wonderful quote about it. "Understanding" only happens in PSA's and Disney movies. Making someone half synthetic will not quell the other "human" half. Nor the Batatrian, Krogan, Salarian etc. etc.

It's not so much that the conflict is inevitable, but the fact that the conflict will damn the galaxy forever if a rogue synthetic wins. Tehcnological singularity and all that jazz.

It's not that everyone is half organic, half synthetic; it is a seamless, natural fusion. There isn't a human and synthetic part; there is only a single, collective, unified whole.

Will the galaxy last that long? What about natural phenomenon wiping out the synthetics? Gamma Ray bursts? Black holes? 

Lastly evolution does not work that way. You cannot combine things like that. Where is Richard Dawkins?

Well, if the galaxy is going to end anyways this is a pointless topic...but synthetics have a much better chance of living indefinitely, wiping out all organic life in the galaxy.

"You can't combine things like that"? It's space magic; the Catalyst says it creates a new DNA. You can't apply real world evolutionary facts to a fictional situation like this...

Yes I can because the other ninety nine hours and forty five minutes were grounded in realism.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 22 avril 2012 - 03:11 .

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

They aren't concerned about any old sentient v sentient conflict. They are specifically worried about one type, synthetic v organic. You can be worried about one type of conflict while not having the same worry about the others. It's not all or nothing.

and what makes the synthetic v organic conflict so much more important than any other?

The one that leads to the obliteration of organic life is the one they are worried about. Ones that leave organics around don't concern them. It's not hard to follow...

synthesis doesn't leave any organics either. what makes organic life itself that important?

[111987]

KingZayd wrote...



does the organic part prevent the synthetics from forming a singularity? if not, then what's the point? if so, then is it fair to limit the potential of a synthetic race?


also lol: natural fusion (of synthetic and organic)

Natural was a poor word choice, but you know what I meant

No, a singularity can still occur. The point is the whole galaxy in this case will be a part of the singularity, as opposed to the singularity coming at the expense of one side or the other.

[Taboo]

No being has the right to have reign over evolutionary principles that begin at the very beginning of time. The ethics involved are............enormous.

[KingZayd]

111987 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...



does the organic part prevent the synthetics from forming a singularity? if not, then what's the point? if so, then is it fair to limit the potential of a synthetic race?


also lol: natural fusion (of synthetic and organic)

Natural was a poor word choice, but you know what I meant

No, a singularity can still occur. The point is the whole galaxy in this case will be a part of the singularity, as opposed to the singularity coming at the expense of one side or the other.

will it? surely since the races are distinct, one singularity is still just as likely to wipe everything else out?

[111987]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes I can because the other ninety nine hours and forty five minutes were grounded in realism.

Yeah...okay...well I don't know how to respond to that. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

[CavScout]

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

It still doesn't make his solution any less barbaric. Hypotheticals based upon a machine that cannot feel cannot be trusted. He created the reapers to kill organic life to prevent them from being killed. Serial killers kill people to "save" them too. It still doesn't make the logic any more palatable or logical.

Who's argued it isn't barbaric? Kindly take that strawman down.

Something being "logical" doesn't equate to it being "right".

And lastly, they didn't make Reapers to stop organics from being killed. They created them to prevent organics from becoming extinct. You are being obtuse when you convert "prevent the extinction of organic life" into "stop the killing of organics".

[Taboo]

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

It still doesn't make his solution any less barbaric. Hypotheticals based upon a machine that cannot feel cannot be trusted. He created the reapers to kill organic life to prevent them from being killed. Serial killers kill people to "save" them too. It still doesn't make the logic any more palatable or logical.

Who's argued it isn't barbaric? Kindly take that strawman down.

Something being "logical" doesn't equate to it being "right".

And lastly, they didn't make Reapers to stop organics from being killed. They created them to prevent organics from becoming extinct. You are being obtuse when you convert "prevent the extinction of organic life" into "stop the killing of organics".

Would killing billions of people in order to preserve food be ethical?

You cannot condone denying anything elses it's right to live base upon your own personal beliefs.

THIS IS WHY THE ENDINGS ARE TERRIBLE.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 22 avril 2012 - 03:15 .

[111987]

KingZayd wrote...

111987 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...



does the organic part prevent the synthetics from forming a singularity? if not, then what's the point? if so, then is it fair to limit the potential of a synthetic race?


also lol: natural fusion (of synthetic and organic)

Natural was a poor word choice, but you know what I meant

No, a singularity can still occur. The point is the whole galaxy in this case will be a part of the singularity, as opposed to the singularity coming at the expense of one side or the other.

will it? surely since the races are distinct, one singularity is still just as likely to wipe everything else out?

Presumably the singularity would include all the races, but who knows.

This of course all works under the assumption that a singularity WILL occur. An organic singularity very well might not occur. Or it could be like the Reapers, where all the individuals of each races form a collective consciousness for each race (like a Reaper).

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...
It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

if you use synthesis on all these species, then you still have no organic species left. how is this better? especially given that war is inevitable.

Both are left, but as a whole. Organics are still around, just different.

[InHarmsWay]

I still don't see how Synthesis solves anything as even the cyborg people can still create synthetics and these synthetics can still fight back.

I find the solution is to get people to think differently.

[111987]

InHarmsWay wrote...

I still don't see how Synthesis solves anything as even the cyborg people can still create synthetics and these synthetics can still fight back.

I find the solution is to get people to think differently.

Yes, but because the creators are partly synthetic, there won't exist that innate fear of a synthetic revolt that all organics seem to have.

[KingZayd]

111987 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

111987 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...



does the organic part prevent the synthetics from forming a singularity? if not, then what's the point? if so, then is it fair to limit the potential of a synthetic race?


also lol: natural fusion (of synthetic and organic)

Natural was a poor word choice, but you know what I meant

No, a singularity can still occur. The point is the whole galaxy in this case will be a part of the singularity, as opposed to the singularity coming at the expense of one side or the other.

will it? surely since the races are distinct, one singularity is still just as likely to wipe everything else out?

Presumably the singularity would include all the races, but who knows.

This of course all works under the assumption that a singularity WILL occur. An organic singularity very well might not occur. Or it could be like the Reapers, where all the individuals of each races form a collective consciousness for each race (like a Reaper).

why would it include all races? well the only reason to do this synthesis was these singularities. if there wasn't going to be a singularity then this was all pointless wasn't it?


when one race forms a singularity, what's to stop it from destroying everything else, like  a pure synthetic one supposedly would?

Modifié par KingZayd, 22 avril 2012 - 03:18 .

[Taboo]

We don't even now how they breed yet.

[CavScout]

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

It still doesn't make his solution any less barbaric. Hypotheticals based upon a machine that cannot feel cannot be trusted. He created the reapers to kill organic life to prevent them from being killed. Serial killers kill people to "save" them too. It still doesn't make the logic any more palatable or logical.

Who's argued it isn't barbaric? Kindly take that strawman down.

Something being "logical" doesn't equate to it being "right".

And lastly, they didn't make Reapers to stop organics from being killed. They created them to prevent organics from becoming extinct. You are being obtuse when you convert "prevent the extinction of organic life" into "stop the killing of organics".

Would killing billions of people in order to preserve food be ethical?

You cannot condone denying anything elses it's right to live base upon your own personal beliefs.

THIS IS WHY THE ENDINGS ARE TERRIBLE.

Straw man and red herrings detected!

Who's arguing the Reaper cycles are "ethical"?

Mass Effect is not about preserving food... it's about preserving the galaxy.

Who's condoning the Reaper's actions?

[KingZayd]

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...
It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

if you use synthesis on all these species, then you still have no organic species left. how is this better? especially given that war is inevitable.

Both are left, but as a whole. Organics are still around, just different.

but they're not.. there are organo-synthetics. These are not organics, nor are they synthetics. Even so, why is this organic element so precious?

[Taboo]

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CavScout wrote...

It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

It still doesn't make his solution any less barbaric. Hypotheticals based upon a machine that cannot feel cannot be trusted. He created the reapers to kill organic life to prevent them from being killed. Serial killers kill people to "save" them too. It still doesn't make the logic any more palatable or logical.

Who's argued it isn't barbaric? Kindly take that strawman down.

Something being "logical" doesn't equate to it being "right".

And lastly, they didn't make Reapers to stop organics from being killed. They created them to prevent organics from becoming extinct. You are being obtuse when you convert "prevent the extinction of organic life" into "stop the killing of organics".

Would killing billions of people in order to preserve food be ethical?

You cannot condone denying anything elses it's right to live base upon your own personal beliefs.

THIS IS WHY THE ENDINGS ARE TERRIBLE.

Straw man and red herrings detected!

Who's arguing the Reaper cycles are "ethical"?

Mass Effect is not about preserving food... it's about preserving the galaxy.

Who's condoning the Reaper's actions?

They are killing beings based upon an assumption that was made millions upon millions of years ago. How can they make this assumption without any evidence?

[kalasaurus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

I liked how the game showed us that organics and synthetics had more in common than we thought. Peace was possible through cooperation and understanding. Then the ending tells us that isn't true.

Quote for truth.

I am absolutely appalled that Bioware presented me with this logic at all. How could the person who wrote the beautiful Rannoch section be involved in any capacity at all?

I know, it bothers me too.  Here we see that coexistence is possible between two inherently different populations; organics and synthetics were given the opportunity to move past their differences and learn from one another.  And now we learn that the only way to maintain that peace is through merging our DNA and removing those differences that made synthetics and organics unique and special.

Modifié par GlassElephant, 22 avril 2012 - 03:23 .

[CavScout]

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

CavScout wrote...
It complete sentient organic extinction that they are worried about. They have no problem killing some to let others live. Do you even bother to listen to what is said in game?

if you use synthesis on all these species, then you still have no organic species left. how is this better? especially given that war is inevitable.

Both are left, but as a whole. Organics are still around, just different.

but they're not.. there are organo-synthetics. These are not organics, nor are they synthetics. Even so, why is this organic element so precious?

They're some kind of hybrid. Why even argue that point?